The 4.5 is not only wrong, its a crime against humanity

[Cambuulo iyo bun]

Thanks carafaat aad aa uu mahadsan tahay intiis xaqeeni naga maqan tahi somalia degi meeso, madaxweyne maka noqon karni somalia, deegamo ma haaysano, beerihii aan tacban jirni waa nalaka boobay,gabdhihiina ma guursan karni intaasi ne waxa si dheer handadad iyo yasid markasa xal uu maleysan inaas helesaan oo wadanka degaayo

[Xaaji Xunjuf]

Carafaat just blindly rejects the 4.5 but he doesn't bring any another alternative.

If the 4 major Clans in Somalia agree to share power based on this formula, and you don't bring any other possible power sharing Formula why replace something that works?

[Carafaat]

XX, there are many ways people can be represented, but most importantly in politics it should be based mainly on interest. An clan does not always go hand in hand with interest. I dont think the people of the Jubba's have diffrent interest on national level whatever clan they are from.

[Xaaji Xunjuf]

Name them how can people be represented in Somalia there is clan interest not regional interests in Somalia.Even though with the whole federalism proposed Somalis are still not capable in building federal states. For them its about how many Ministers and deputy Ministers does my Clan have, so how can they be represented you have to bring something that works now something that can be put in practice now not in 10 years.

[NGONGE]

Carafaat;757661 wrote:

The last time clan wars took place in Somalia, was during the Jubba/Kismaayo wars back in the '97 in the Jubba's. Since then the Somali conflict has been dominated by groups with diffrent political agenda's with little support from the own clan. For example it was the TNG vs some warlords from the same clan as TFG President, TFG/Ethiopia vs. ICU and TFG/AMISOM vs. Al Shabaab.

 

The fact that ICU pacified Moqadishu and kickout warlods and later Al Shabaab managed to control by far the biggest part of Somalia, should tell you that their key succes wasnt the 4.5 system rather a system based on diversity, local ownership and balance between the clans. While the TFG is using the 4.5 system failed to gather little support from the people since it was created back in 2004. Now, just look at the situation now and how Al Shabaab is losing power while using clannism and actually the TFG is becaming slighly popular since Shariif/Farmaajo said farewell to the 4.5 system back in 2010.

 

This should tell you atleast something. That the key succes in Somalia's reconciliation and governance is not dependant not the clan formula's, but rather on shared morals, value's and interest. And the 4.5 system has rather fractured Somali's(or clans) with common interest then it unified them along shared interest.

What the 4.5 system just came out of thin air then? Are you saying someone just thought it up in 2004 and all those warlords suddenly decided it was a good idea?

 

You know and I know why and when the 4.5 system was concieved. Now to reject it because it is not a fair system is (actually) a fair argument. However, since there is no workable alternative (TODAY), someone who really wants to see an improvement in Somalia's condition should whole heartdly support the 4.5 system. After all, the biggest problem facing Somalia today is not the clan one (though this still exists). Somalia's biggest problem is Al Shabab, saaxib. First get rid of them and then deal with the unfairness of the 4.5.

 

Of course, I still believe that even when the time comes to deal with this system it would not be fully abolished. I believe that it will only be modified into becoming FIVE or TEN or even TWENTY point TWO.

[Carafaat]

tell me XX, does someone from the TFG represent you and your sub-clan in politics? Or do you feel Siilaanyo is your political leader more above UDUB?

 

Well that same goes for Somalia. The fact that Sheick Shariif is Abdiwali is PM does not mean he is the political representative of Gedo people. Nor he or others with the block represent their interest.

[Xaaji Xunjuf]

Carafaat the Majority of the people of Somalia fully back the 4.5 Clan formula power sharing system.

The TFG mps represent Puntland represent gedo represent jawhar Mogadisho bay and bakool have u seen some one rejecting them i haven't.

 

You're problem carafaat is you try to see this from a Somaliland perspective which is completely wrong. Abdi weli definitely represent the gedo and cabuudwaaq Folks that's how the 4.5 works my dear friend.

[Carafaat]

NGONGE;758093 wrote:

What the 4.5 system just came out of thin air then? Are you saying someone just thought it up in 2004 and all those warlords suddenly decided it was a good idea?

 

You know and I know why and when the 4.5 system was concieved. Now to reject it because it is not a fair system is (actually) a fair argument.

However, since there is no workable alternative (TODAY), someone who really wants to see an improvement in Somalia's condition should whole heartdly support the 4.5 system. After all, the biggest problem facing Somalia today is not the clan one (though this still exists). Somalia's biggest problem is Al Shabab, saaxib. First get rid of them and then deal with the unfairness of the 4.5.

 

Of course, I still believe that even when the time comes to deal with this system it would not be fully abolished. I believe that it will only be modified into becoming FIVE or TEN or even TWENTY point TWO.

Al shabaab can be only be beaton by presenting an attractive workable alternative and 4.5 is not really attractive for most Somali who feel 4.5 is not a just system. But copying the good thinks of Al Shabaab (diversity, justice, no clan dominations,equality for all) could be attractive for many.

[NGONGE]

Carafaat;758233 wrote:

Al shabaab can be only be beaton by presenting an attractive workable alternative and 4.5 is not really attractive for most Somali who feel 4.5 is not a just system. But copying the good thinks of Al Shabaab (diversity, justice, no clan dominations,equality for all) could be attractive for many.

You can't make the assumption that most Somalis feel the 4.5 is not a just system and try to pass it off as a fact, saaxib. The only fact about Somalis is that they are clannish. Therefore a better assumption to make is to actually argue that most of them are in full agreement with the 4.5 system.

 

Still, a system that could rival Al Shabab's has to be one that unites everyone, adeer. What do you suggest? Islam again! But that particular avenue has already been used and abused by the Courts & Al Shabab. One must come with a new thing and, at any rate, this in itself is a totally new discussion that has nothing to do with the correctness of the 4.5 system. It is what it is, saaxib.

[Carafaat]

Adeer, the TFG and its clan formula exist since 2004 and so far only the President and PM

Sub-sub-sub clan show any enthousiasm for the TFG. So we can easly assume that the majority

Of Somali's dont support the TFG and neither feel represented by their clan blocks. That Somali's are clannish is a fact. And I am not opposing clan as instrument of participation, but there should be something else next to it.

Indeed Something that can unite the divded clans. And I think we need to seek the solution in Regionalism.

[NGONGE]

^^ Good idea. But how many functioning regional adminstrations are there today? I can think of PL only. The others are all mostly on paper (and SL is not playing).

[Xaaji Xunjuf]

^^ what about azania they are playing big with Kenyans

[Carafaat]

NGONGE;758324 wrote:

^^ Good idea. But how many functioning regional adminstrations are there today? I can think of PL only. The others are all mostly on paper (and SL is not playing).

I am not a Political scientist. But regionalism focuses on the interests, greater influence and common political power of a particular region. In Somalia(except for Bari and Nugaal as you state) different clans and sub-clans live together side by side in all the region and cities. So this means that in order to form a regional authority there has to be cooperation between the people within a region and people need to transcend clans on local/regional level and seek commonalities.

 

But how can they do that, if they are already divided by the TFG's so called 4.5 in diffrent clan blocks? How can people from clan x,y and z work together for a peacefull regon, common regional administration and transcend clan, when they are divided in Clan blocks A,B,C on national level?

 

Somalia as we knew it has been destroyed, it needs to be rebuild from the ground up. That means the fundements of the society(the regions not to the clans) have to be strengthend, region's governing bodies have to be set up, political powers brought back to the people, by promote decentralization, develop a more rational allocation of the resources for benefit of the local populations, increase efficient implementation of local development plans, raise competitiveness levels among the regions and ultimately this the road to rebuild the whole country.

 

I understand Regionalism is associated with the opposite of universalism. And if clan is everything and therefor universalistic, then I rather choose for the opposite, the smaller, mini version and therefor the local version of it.

[Xaaji Xunjuf]

^^^Bad Example the people of bari and Nugaal are one clan Family so the TFG can't divide them

[NGONGE]

^^ You won me over when you mentioned regionalism, saaxib. It's a viable and probable idea that I can't mock (as I normally do with the daydreams of nationalists). This one has legs.

 

XX, Azania is a work in progress. The adminstration needs to be fully functional and in control of the areas it claims before it can be included in these musings.