Agnostic Cara and Muslim Nur, A Dialogue

[Johnny B]

Sheikh Nur, when you say " Johnny Boy's redicule of my usage of Quran as my argument is not symmetrically applied across both sides of dialogue ", You´re patently wrong becouse , Cara´s position is not claiming possitively a knowledge of Allah, it´s your claim of possession of such knowledge, that is in question. and if you think you can demand of Cara (or any other person who happens to hold diffrent idea than yours, or has no clue of what you´re talking about ) NOT to use or apply any skepticism towards your extraordinary claim, yoy´re not applying logic Sheikh Nur, you´re begging us to swollow your extraordinary claims with line and stinker, I´m sorry but some of us prefer knowing what they swollow.

 

Now ,you may blame me forever.

 

Sheikh Nur, Asking Cara what books she reads or what movies she watches is irrelevant to this grandstanding of yours, Cara lives an empty life according to you , so why bother ? you´re not entertaining an empty Agnostic life are you?, do i need to remind you that this grandstanding is the offspring of your saddistic claim that Agnostic/Atheistic people conduct an empty life?

 

My Graad Bashi.

As much as i respect and sympathize with your burning desire to save the hulk and even get abstruct as you philosophise, just this one time, let us not take over Nur´s show.

 

Ever heard of the adage never say never )?

you´ve reasoned as to why we shoulden´t reason ,thus told us to NEVER say NEVER

it is a nice adage , it is just that is tells a person not to do what is beeing done (right now).

Your position engenders a fatal contradiction, it is self-refuting at best a self-annihilating to be frank , becouse you can´t reasonably reason to to call reason a dictator.

 

Too many things have been claimed to have been the revealed thruth only to be enforced by way of human violence and intellectual dishonesty.

When you say "For me the divine revelations occupies different sphere as it is the word of Allah" you may want to save your extraordinary claims from failing infront of a rational , objective and naturally questioning crowd, but inso doing sell it to a person who is under the ellusion of his imagination beeing a universal truth or common sense beeing based on some particular reason or pure intuition beeing the undeniable universal truth.

i´ll be having difficulties proving you right or wrong , but as you sink into absurdity you won´t be able make your knowledge a universal truth.

[Castro]

Waryaa JB, yac baan ku idhi. Isn't this faith in "logic" just another form of faith? Remarkably a faith that doesn't even bother to offer any rewards. :rolleyes:

 

Atheer, since Nur and Cara seem to be busy, I'll harass you. Exactly which part of Religion (or Faith) bothers you? Is it the seemingly irrational belief in the unseen? In other words, the faith or religion itself are not the problem but the adherents are. So Islam is ok but Nur's belief in it is not, for example.

[Nur]

JB

 

you write:

 

Sheikh Nur, when you say " Johnny Boy's redicule of my usage of Quran as my argument is not symmetrically applied across both sides of dialogue ", You´re patently wrong becouse , Cara´s position is not claiming possitively a knowledge of Allah

 

 

Answer:

 

Neither did I claim a knowledge or belief of agnostism. Let me simplify it further, As a Muslim, I have done some mental reasoning that led me to believe in Allah, resurruction, judgement day, hell and heaven, and the authenticity of the Quran and the Prophethood of Muhammad SAWS. So, when I have a dialogue, I will use the inferences that have convinced me to convince others, and invariably they come from Quraan, so to be a Muslim.

 

As for Cara, she has done some mental reasoning that is based on literature she read that led her to doubt, to be Agnostic.

 

The symmetry is, if I am not allowed to use Quraan as a convincing tool, because cara does not believe, then, I shouldnt be expected to allow Cara to use Agnostic arguments that contradict with my belief.

 

To make matters simple, we should be allowed to have a rational dialogue while free to pick our sources of argument.

 

As for my questions, I clearly explained why I need them, it is for the sole purpose of effeiciently using information that we can both grasp, debators, like electricians need to use standard tools, in our case, the tools are the religious infromation. But if the sisters to choose not to answer my questions for any reason, then she should say so, no harm done, I will assume her level and adjust as as I go. My question was driven by politeness, please do not misinterpret it to cause a mistrust, I respect Cara as a debator.

 

Castro bro.

 

Mahadsanid. gaar ahaan sida sharafta leh oo aad dooddayaasha aad ukala gar naqeysid.

 

 

Nur

[xiinfaniin]

Originally posted by J B:

Now that Nur and Cara decided to have a dialogue

i ask the rest to hold back their comments towards Nur and Cara´s positions,

untill each has posted 3 posts, that gives them the chance to both comment on the Oponent´s position and put forward their point of view

and best of all not to worry about jibes from unexpected direction

.

 

 

thanks!

^^ I wonder if good JB could keep his word ?

 

JB, remember while good Cara has bravely taken on Nur's challenge, you, sir, sheepishly declined and chickened out when the same oppurtunity was given to you. You can't blame Sh. Nur for not trying to ease your labor, saaxiib . Marka let the debate unfold, adeer .

[Simple_Nomad]

Originally posted by Cara:

 

 

If I understood the story right, the Persians defeated the Romans, the early Muslims were demoralized, but Muhammed told them in this verse that soon the Romans would be victorious, which they eventually were. As proof for the existence of god, I would say this is not particularly convincing. The Roman and Persian empires were at war with one another for nearly 700 years, with first one then the other winning battles and skirmishes all over the Middle East. The "front line" was so long that predicting that the Romans would win is like predicting it will rain next week. Even if it doesn't rain in your town, it will rain somewhere. All the same, this prophecy would be truly remarkable if it was one of many or if it had been more specific. In a book of 6000+ verses, getting one or two predictions right is no miracle.

 

 

Sorry to interrupt your debate but i feel that the surah in question is not as simple as you claimed.You correctly stated that the muslims where demoralized at this period of time.However you missed out a vital point, in this surah it is stated that:

2. The Roman Empire has been defeated-

 

3. In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-

 

 

Here you can clearly see that two prophecies are made. A. The Roman empire has been defeated.B. That after thier defeat they will be soon be victorious. Then finally as you said the demoralized muslims are given a further prophecy:

4. Within a few years. With Allah is the Decision, in the past and in the Future: on that Day shall the Believers rejoice-

The greater miracle here is that a demoralized muslim population is told that after the victory of the romans they too will rejoice. It so happened that the muslims where victorious in the battle of Badr.

 

You claimed that making a prophecy such as this is like "predicting rain". I have to totally disagree with you, because this propecy was time specific ie within a few a years; secondly it states three events will occur one after another in which i explained above. So we ask what is the relevance of this to your debate? We can discuss and disregard this prophecy today like it was a randon one which meant nothing. But i want to you for a moment to take your mind back to that time period. There is a man who is considered a heretic, insane lunatic with a small group of followers. This man claims that the Persians will defeat the romans in the nearest land, but furthermore the Romans will be victorious after that and the muslims will rejoice at that time. This news gathers around the town people cannot help but laugh at this fanciful propecy made by what they regard as a lunatic. The freind of this man abubakr is summoned a pagan arab asks him arrogantly asks him if he believes in this insane prophecy. He confidently answers that if Muhammad says so then it must be true. A bet is even placed. This man offers 100 camels predicting that this event will not occur, Abu Bakr confidently takes up this bet, though later betting was forbidden for muslims. Do you know what would have happened if this event had not occured? Today i may not be a muslim, Today you may not discussing something called islam with me. The religion of was islam was riding on this very prophecy, if it would have not occured then the enemies of Muhammad would have rejoiced.For finally they could have dismissed the threat they posed to their society. He would also have proven a liar and a fanatic dreamer. The religion of islam would have ceased to exist.To you it proves that the Quran was simply prophectical. I say that Muhammad saw was truly inspired by a divinge being.

 

 

Finally you tried to downplay the significance of the persians defeating the Romans you compared it to prediciting rain, you are correct in that these two empires where at war for 6 centuries. let us assses the historical significance of this:

All the following information is taken from non muslim websites.Apart from the Battle of Badr.

 

http://www.livius.org/sao-sd/sassanids/sassanids.htm

 

 

The final struggle of the Roman empire -now called Byzantium- and Persia started under Khusrau II 'the victorious' (590-628). Again, the Sassanids were the aggressor. The Byzantines were weakened, because Italy had been invaded by the Langobards, the Slavs were taking hold of the Balkans, and Andalusia was lost to the Visigoths. It was the perfect moment to attack the Byzantine empire, and Khusrau acted accordingly. His armies ravaged the cities of Syria and sacked Jerusalem in 614. (The Jews welcomed the Persians, because the Christians had often persecuted them.) One of the objects the Persians took away was the relic of the True Cross.

 

 

Khusrau's armies went on to invade Egypt -Alexandria was captured in 619- and in 626, their advance-guards paused only a mile from Constantinople. The Persians even raided Cyprus and occupied Rhodes. It seemed as if the Achaemenid empire was restored, and Khusrau ordered the making of brilliant rock reliefs at Taq-e Bostan. (Go here for a medieval fairy-tale about Khusrau.)

The first prophecy was fulfilled.

2. The Roman Empire has been defeated-

 

 

However, the Byzantine emperor Heraclius was to prove a match for Khusrau. He took some time to train an army, and in 627, he invaded Assyria and Mesopotamia. His campaign was extremely successful: he did not even return to his own empire during the winter, but stayed far behind the enemy lines. The Persian army mutinied and Khusrau was murdered (628). His successor Ardašir III made peace and the relic of the True Cross was restored to Jerusalem.

 

 

A Sassanid king

(Louvre, Paris)

Heraclius' victory meant the end of Persia. There were four Sassanid kings in four years, and because there was no real authority, the Arabs -Muslims- were able to defeat the Persians, who were still Zoroastrians. The last Persian king was Yazdgard III, whose reign began in 632. In 636, the Arabs took Ctesiphon, in 641, they invaded Iran (battle of Nehavand), and ten years later, the last Sassanid king died as a fugitive.

The Battle of Nineveh was the climactic battle of the last of the Roman-Persian Wars between the Byzantine Empire and the Sassanid Empire, in 627. The Byzantine victory broke the power of the Sassanid dynasty and briefly restored the Empire to its ancient boundaries in the Middle East.

 

During a six-year campaign, the Byzantine Emperor Heraclius had driven the Persians from Asia Minor back into their own territories, but the Persian emperor Khosrau II still refused to make peace. On December 12, 627, the main armies of Heraclius, in personal command, and Khosrau's army commanded by the general Rhahzadh, met at Nineveh. How many soldiers engaged in the battle is unknown.

 

The battle was closely contested, but Heraclius' superior generalship won the day, and Rhahzadh was killed in the fighting. The Persian army was driven from the field and Persia lay open to the Byzantine army. The next year, Persia accepted Heraclius' peace terms

 

Second prophecy was fulfilled

3. In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-

 

The Battle of Badr

http://www.al-islam.org/history/history/badr.html

 

The battle of Badr was the most important among the Islamic battles of Destiny. For the first time the followers of the new faith were put into a serious test. Had victory been the lot of the pagan army while the Islamic Forces were still at the beginning of their developments, the faith of Islam could have come to an end.

 

No one was aware of the importance of the outcome of the Battle as the Prophet (S.A.W.) himself. We might read the depth of his anxiety in his prayerbefore the beginning of the Battle when he stood up supplicating his Lord :

 

God this is Quraish. It has come with all its arrogance and boastfulness, trying to discredit Thy Apostle. God, I ask Thee to humiliate them tomorrow. God, if this Muslim band will perish today, Thou shall not be worshipped. [1]

At this battle in which the pagan army consisted of 950 fighters and 314 (including the Messenger S.A.W.), the Islamic defense was a combination of three defensive lines :

 

The personality of the Messenger, his leadership and his unequalled firmness. He (S.A.W.) was to the Muslims the final refuge at Badr and at every battle he attended.

The Hashmites (the clan of the Prophet S.A.W.), led by Ali Ibn Abu Talib (A.S.)who entered this battle relatively obscure and came out with unequalled military fame. His military performances became the popular subject of the Arab caravans conversations throughout the Arabic Peninsula.

 

The final prophecy was fulfilled. Ironically the eastern roman empire and the persians would soon be conquered by the Muslims.

3. In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-

 

It is now up to us to decidw whether Muhammad Saw was truly inspired By ALLAH SWT or Does this prove that the Quran is merely being Prophectical?

 

6. (It is) the promise of Allah. Never does Allah depart from His promise: but most men understand not.

 

7. They know but the outer (things) in the life of this world: but of the End of things they are heedless.

 

8. Do they not reflect in their own minds? Not but for just ends and for a term appointed, did Allah create the heavens and the earth, and all between them: yet are there truly many among men who deny the meeting with their Lord (at the Resurrection)!

[Simple_Nomad]

Originally posted by Cara:

In a book of 6000+ verses, getting one or two predictions right is no miracle.

 

Sorry once again to dwelge into your debate but am sure brother Nur would excuse me as it is the duty for every muslim to defend the Quran and correct misconceptions about islam. I will once again discuss other prophecies and promises in the quran. Contrary to your opinion i think it is truly remarkable if we fully analyse the context and timing of the promises made in the Quran. The history of Muhammad saw is one of the most detailed among religous figure. Therefore i suggest that if we are to have a logical and meaninful debate here. we musn't be quick to dismiss the Quran and the teachings of Muhammad saw.

 

The following is taken from wikipedia.com this relates to the early persecution of Muhammad saw and his followers.

 

As the ranks of Muhammad's followers swelled, he became a threat to the local tribes and the rulers of the city. Their wealth, after all, rested on the Kaaba, a sacred house of idols and the focal point of Meccan religious life. If they threw out their idols, as Muhammad preached, there would be no more pilgrims, no more trade, and no more wealth. Muhammad’s denunciation of the Meccan traditional religion was especially offensive to his own tribe, the Quraysh, as they were the guardians of the Ka'aba. Muhammad and his followers were persecuted. Some of them fled to the Ethiopian Kingdom of Aksum and founded a small colony (called Negash, or "King") there under the protection of the Ethiopian king. The Quraysh attempted to persuade the king to expel the Muslims on grounds that their faith was contadictory to his Christian following. The Muslims were allowed to stay when they demonstrated that the Qur'an paid great respect to Jesus and Mary.

 

Several suras and parts of suras are said to date from this time, and reflect its circumstances: see for example al-Masadd, al-Humaza, parts of Maryam and al-Anbiya, al-Kafirun, and Abasa.

 

In 619, both Muhammad's wife Khadijah and his uncle Abu Talib died; it was known as aamul hazn ("the year of sorrows.") Muhammad's own clan withdrew their protection of him. Muslims patiently endured hunger and persecution.

 

Relations between Mecca and Medina rapidly worsened (see surat al-Baqara). Meccans confiscated all the property that the Muslims had left in Mecca. In Medina, Muhammad signed treaties of alliance and mutual help with neighboring tribes.

 

Muhammad turned to raiding caravans bound for Mecca. Caravan raiding (al-ghazw) was an old Arabian tradition; Muslims justified the raids by the Meccans' confiscation of the property they had left at Mecca and the state of war deemed to exist between the Meccans and the Muslims. Secular scholars add this was also a matter of survival for the Muslims. They owned no land in Medina and if they did not raid, they would have to live on charity and whatever wage labor they could find, both of which were in short supply in the small oasis.

 

In March of 624, Muhammad led some 300 warriors in a raid on a Meccan merchant caravan. The Meccans successfully defended the caravan and then decided to teach the Medinans a lesson. They sent a small army against Medina. On March 15, 624 near a place called Badr, the Meccans and the Muslims clashed. Though outnumbered more than 3 times (1000 to 300) in the battle, the Muslims met with success, killing at least forty-five Meccans and taking seventy prisoners for ransom; only fourteen Muslims died. This marked the real beginning of Muslim military achievement

 

As you may well be aware Muhammad saw and his followers where severley persecuted. Yet despite all the trials and tribulations of the muslims. Muhammad saw remained confident that his religion would triumph over the pagans. What was his hope? The quran the very book that you so openly dismiss. If his promises would have failed then he surely would have gone down in history as a grand liar and amogst all the other false prophets whos promises failed in misery. All i am asking you do is to simply consider the how the quran accurately predicted that muslims will not only grow but they will also become dominant and triumphant. You see this is the miracle of the Quran ALLAH swt sent us an illetrate man from the arabian desert. To overcome every possible trial sent by the idol worshippers and become one of the most talked about personalities in the history of man.

 

once again

Muhammad's own clan withdrew their protection of him. Muslims patiently endured hunger and persecution.

 

The Qur'an says: "Allah has promised to those of you who believe, and do good deeds, that He will surely grant them in the land inheritance of power as He granted it to those before them; that He will establish in authority their religion which He has chosen for them. And that He will change their state after fear to one of security and peace. They will worship Me alone and not associate aught with Me." (24:55) And also: "Say to those who deny faith, soon you will be vanquished." (3:12) and "When comes the help of Allah and Victory, and you see the people enter Allah's religion in multitudes . . ." (110:1-2)

 

The first verse was revealed at a time of the Muslim's weakness, promising the righteous victory, and the second predicting the peoples entering into Islam in crowds, and so it came to pass, after the capture of Mecca, and in the time of the Caliphs Abu Bakr, 'Umar, 'Uthman and 'Ali, who were from the most pious companions of the Prophet, were established by Allah in the land, defeating the Persian and Roman empires, so that Islam was established from Spain to parts of China in a mere twenty years. This, in part, fulfills another prophecy of the Qur'an

 

"It is He who has sent the Messenger with guidance, and the religion of truth, to make it triumphant over all religions." (9:32)

 

As i related to you Allah swt chose Muhammad saw as a sign for humanity. He was poor, an orphan, illetrate, relied on support from the poor and slaves. Yet this very man claimed that his new founded religion would overcome all other religion in that region. The impact of islam from mecca and medina to africa, asia and even europe cannot be overestimated. The man who was once laughed at two years after his death. He would inspire armies which stage the greatest conquest ever seen in the history of man. This is why Islam is so different from other religions for it is not a religion rather a way of life. This man that you so easily dismiss prophecized that his nation would be great and that they would become great in number. Is this not a miracle in itself considering the circumstances, background and geographical location of Muhammad saw?

[Castro]

Originally posted by Simple_Nomad:

Sorry once again to dwelge into your debate but am sure brother Nur would excuse me as it is the duty for every muslim to defend the Quran and correct misconceptions about islam.location of Muhammad saw?

Curb your enthusiasm, atheer. Nur has things under control here.

[Simple_Nomad]

Curb your enthusiasm, atheer. Nur has things under control here. [/QB]

Hayee Adeer

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by J B:

NOT to use or apply any skepticism towards your

extraordinary claim

, yoy´re not applying logic Sheikh Nur, you´re begging us to swollow your extraordinary claims with line and stinker,

The wag was wrong when he uttered now idolized, partially referenced above phrase: extraordinary claims require extraordinary prove . No, uh-uh, extraordinary claims require extraordinarily willingness to believe. Some are blessed with it, others are deprived of it.

[Khayr]

Originally posted by Castro:

quote:Originally posted by Simple_Nomad:

Sorry once again to dwelge into your debate but am sure brother Nur would excuse me as it is the duty for every muslim to defend the Quran and correct misconceptions about islam.location of Muhammad saw?

Curb your enthusiasm, atheer. Nur has things under control here.

Castro,

 

Simple_Nomad is within his right as a muslim to respond to individuals that mock the Quran.

Its a sure sign of Iman and Intelligence and not the other way around for Simple_Nomad to feel that way.

 

As for this debate/discussion,

 

Its brought about in a 'PUBLIC FORUM' therefor,

it is not a discussion btwn just 2 individuals. For if that was the case, then their dialogue would be done through Private Messaging tools.

Individuals who want to participate should not be made 'unwelcome' especially by those that are not Nur or Care and are posting the same if not more posts on this thread.

[Castro]

Originally posted by Khayr:

Castro,

 

Simple_Nomad is within his right as a muslim to respond to individuals that mock the Quran.

Its a sure sign of Iman and Intelligence and not the other way around for Simple_Nomad to feel that way.

You're right awoowe. This is a public discussion. I didn't make the brother feel bad, I hope. Khayrul kalaami maa qal wa dal , atheer, and Simple_Nomad didn't have to write this many words just to make a correction. If he felt an uncontrollable urge to set the record straight, announcing the correction then providing the relevant link(s) would have sufficed. Yalla, page 4 is a write-off at the moment.

[Baashi]

deleted.

 

On a second thought I see no benefit in engaging with JB on this subject. We've been through this before and we disagreed strongly on this very subject.

 

I let my buddy Nur do what he does the best.

[Nephissa]

No miracle or sign in the world will make any difference to my boy JB. He simply refuse to see it. JB-yow waad lalmataa, please do yourself a favour, and give yourself a break from here .

 

Please continue..

[Johnny B]

My beloved Sheikh Nur, Something tells me that you´re in dire need of those DVDs Castro is talking about , and i need to learn Arabic.

When again say :

"The symmetry is, if I am not allowed to use Quraan as a convincing tool, because cara does not believe, then, I shouldnt be expected to allow Cara to use Agnostic arguments that contradict with my belief."

 

You´re off the mark, probably in a state of rapture .

 

A: Xiin has a green natural hair.

B: really?

A: don´t apply skepticism towards my position as i don´t apply it towards your position.

 

Sheikh Nur, the position of the Skeptic IS the default position, while yours is the extraordinary position of absolutely possitively certain knowledge.

 

You see B politely questions the truthfullness of A´s claim, B lacks claim, so A can´t question B´s position. simple.

 

That is the reason behind what you perceived as a rediculing from my part, I´ve no reason whatissoever to redicule my Sheikh, on the contrary , i think my Sheikh will only get stronger after few doses of sound logic.

 

Bishy,

Älskling , your words are my orders, this is the my last post on this thread.

[Castro]

^ What's the point of an Agnostics vs. Believers match if all the Agnostics take off? Do you think we like to play with ourselves?