Agnostic Cara and Muslim Nur, A Dialogue

[Nur]

Nomads

 

Cara, a respected visitor of this site has caught me off guard with her well structured argument about Athiesm, I reasoned that she deserves a similar intellectual match, as Muslims, Allah instructed us that we should have the best of dialogue with those who do not share our faith or have no faith at all like Cara, so today we are starting this thread in the best of intentions to exchange views.

 

 

The first Topic of discussion is the existence of a Creator of the Universe.

 

1. We Muslims belive that Allah is the creator of the Universe and its inhabitants for a worthwhile purpose.

 

2. Athiests believe that there is no creator, that life is an accident, and all of what we see happened without a deffinite plan or purpose, a freak accident.

 

 

I invite Cara to tell us more about her faithless principles, the exhaustive proofs that rule out the existence of a creator and a judgement day and a purpose in life, and I will speak from the point of our Faith using the Holy Quraan as my proof, the final miracle, Allah SWT said :

 

Fa dhakkir bil Quraani man yakhaafu waciid

 

Remind them With the Holy Quraan, those who are afraid of my promise ( of punishment).

 

Fa bi ayyi Xadiithin Bacdallaaahi wa aayaatihi Yuminuun.

 

What other argument, other than Allah (Quraan) and his signs ( The open book of the Universe) will they believe then?

 

 

Why did I choose this strategy?

 

because of this verse:

 

" And we reveal (portions) of the Quraan which are a cure and mercy for the believers, (while) it does not add to but more of a loss for those who are unjust" Suurah Israa, 82

 

 

Nur

 

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Seddexi, seddex kale ka ma aar gudato:

 

1. Runlow, kama aar guto beenlow

2. Qof Allah ka baqana , kama aar guto qofaan Allah ka baqin

3. Qof caqli lehna, Kama aar guto, qof caqli yar.

[Khalaf]

Salaamu lah

 

My brother Nur, does sister Cara call herself an atheist or faithless? If she doesn’t then it is not correct to label her as such.

 

The callers to Islam, the Muslims should be welcoming and deal with those with opposing views in kindness and truth as our prophet (saw) did. Calling another human being who has opposing views faithless is not a welcoming manner, but puts them down. She views the world different then us, and I like the way she presents her views unlike some who make a mockery.

 

 

This should be interesting and important dialogue, inshallah the sister will not be discourage in this environment and we shouldn't dicourage her, her views are important and we shouldn't dismiss her as "sad" individual who is unworthy of a discussion.

 

Salaamu lah

[Castro]

Sheikh Nur is somewhat fond of grandstanding but I worry that even with the right message, he may reap the wrong outcome.

[Kashafa]

Calling another human being who has opposing views faithless is not a welcoming manner, but puts them down.

It's called straight talk, which is much appreciated in today's world of political correctness. I don't see any mockery, or grandstanding for that matter. If we're not gonna contribute, can we leave the play-by-play commentary till the end of the thread and watch the debate unfold ? Thanks.

[Cara.]

Nur,

 

Athiest Cara and Muslim Nur, A Dialogue of Faith vs Faithlessness

 

I think a better title would be "A Dialogue of Faith vs. Reason". See, I'm faithful and true to my family and friends; it's religions, cults and superstitions that I'm skeptical about.

 

Originally posted by Nur:

I invite Cara to tell us more about her faithless principles, the exhaustive proofs that rule out the existence of a creator and a judgement day and a purpose in life,

I claim no such proofs, nor do I need them. The person who makes a positive claim is responsible for proving it true. Since you make the extraordinary claim, you must provide the extraordinary evidence. I speak from a default position of skepticism.

[Khalaf]

It's called straight talk, which is much appreciated in today's world of political correctness. I don't see any mockery, or grandstanding for that matter. If we're not gonna contribute, can we leave the play-by-play commentary till the end of the thread and watch the debate unfold ? Thanks.

 

--Brother I was talking about the title: Athiest Cara and Muslim Nur, A Dialogue of Faith vs Faithlessness. And what others have done in other threads the “straight talk†calling people animals, faithless, sad individuals, sub-human, and unworthy of discussion.

 

My point as Muslims when we talk to people who hold opposing views we shouldn’t behave with political correctness or straight talk as you call it, but in the manner our great prophet (saw) did. Now which other way is better then the way of the prophet upon him be peace, none.

 

 

I claim no such proofs, nor do I need them. The person who makes a positive claim is responsible for proving it true. Since you make the extraordinary claim, you must provide the extraordinary evidence. I speak from a default position of skepticism.

 

--My sister, what is it that you claim? We say Allah Most High exists, what are you saying that there is no Allah, no afterlife, or you just doubt it? Everyone knows the position of Muslims, what is your position sis? Isn’t saying there is no Allah (if u think that) also an extraordinary claim? How do u come to that conclusion if that is your conclusion?

 

Salaamun

[Abu-Salman]

The person who makes a positive claim is responsible for proving it true. Since you make the extraordinary claim, you must provide the extraordinary evidence. I speak from a default position of skepticism.

Well, this position is called agnosticism rather than atheism (doubt).

 

In fact, denying God's existence is in itself a claim, the atheist quintessential claim...

[Cara.]

Khalaf,

 

Thank you for your courtesy walaal.

 

Everyone knows the position of Muslims, what is your position sis? Isn’t saying there is no Allah (if u think that) also an extraordinary claim? How do u come to that conclusion if that is your conclusion?

 

In terms of what I know for sure, it's that I exist, the world exists, and that's about it. I know some people claim that there are other 'beings', like angels, gods, jinn, little green men, ghosts, etc. But I've never come across any of these things, and the accounts people give I find highly unconvincing. That's all. I'm not interested in challenging other people's beliefs. Everyone has a unique outlook on life, and what may be obvious to some, is a little uncertain to others. So it is seems a little foolish to me to ridicule others for their beliefs so long as those beliefs don't cause any harm to me or mine.

[Cara.]

Originally posted by Djib-Somali:

quote: The person who makes a positive claim is responsible for proving it true. Since you make the extraordinary claim, you must provide the extraordinary evidence. I speak from a default position of skepticism.

Well, this position is called agnosticism rather than atheism (doubt).

How about this then: in terms of knowing whether there is a god or not, I'm agnostic. In my view one cannot claim that there is or is no god or gods. But in terms of my personal belief, my feeling is that there is no god or gods.

 

In fact, denying God's existence is in itself a claim, the atheist quintessential claim...

When Muhammed (saw) smashed the 365 idols in the Ka'ba, was he not denying their existence as the gods his countrymen worshipped?

[Nur]

Castro bro.

 

It would be nice if you can talk straight to me, knowing that i read your message, yes saaxib, I do magnify issues at times for the unsuspecting readers to see, to expose fundemental ideas that are hiding in discussions about Islam as harmless, we get from time to time people who have a mission to indirectly preach other faiths and faithlessness on these pages without directly saying so, my job here is to bring them to the forefront and have a head on dialogue, and Cara who I have followed her posts for a while is an example, as you see, she has not denied being an Athiest, equating Faith we having no reason in her last post. But I do thnak you for your candid comment warning me that my magnification may backfire, I assure you that I have taken a well calculated risk, thanks saaxib.

 

 

Cara

 

Thanks, so you find faithlessness as an insult? how do you define faith ? dont you find it to be contradictory that you make faith opposite to reason on one hand, and then claim to have faith at the same time? your claim that people with faith have no reason, and those with reason have no faith is quite interesting, unfortunately, but i find the contrary to be true.

 

My question to you, when you say that you are an skeptic about everything that you can not sense with your bare senses, a materialist view, does that mean that you are just saying that you are not denying the exisitence of Allah, just that it is possible, but that you have no enough information you can rely on that is convincing?

 

Nur

[Nur]

Cara

 

As for my proofs, since I am the one who made the claim that there is Allah, here are they, let us discuss their validity, in a result oriented way:

 

 

Early when Propphet Muhammad appeared and was in conflict with the Quresih tribe and Idolators ( who worship Material gods), the Idolators claimed that they will win the battle bewteen them and Muslims who were people who follow a revelationm from heaven. In that same period, the Romans were defeated by the Persians in a famous battle, the Romans being people of the Book like Muslims, and the Persians being idol worshippers like the Quresih tribe that was opposiing Islam.

 

So, Quresih rejoiced at the victory of Idolators over the people of the Book ( Romans), and the Muslims were very Sad and unhappy about there brethern in the book to be defeated by Idolators.

 

The Surah Romans in the Quraan was revealed for that occasion, but it goes further, it touches on skeptics and agnostics, I thought this Surah is the best I can start with in our dialague:

 

 

Holy Quraan; ( Speaker, Allah )

 

Surah: The Romans

 

 

1. Alif. Lam. Mim. ( Devine Code Message)

 

2. The Romans have been defeated

 

3. In the nearer land, and they, after their defeat will be victorious

 

4. Within ten years - Allah's is the command in the former case and in the latter - and in that day believers will rejoice

 

5. In Allah's help to victory. He helpeth to victory whom He will. He is the Mighty, the Merciful.

 

6. It is a promise of Allah. Allah faileth not His promise, but most of mankind know not.

 

7. They know only some appearance of the life of the world, and are heedless of the Hereafter.

 

8. Have they not pondered upon themselves ? Allah created not the heavens and the earth, and that which is between them, save with truth and for a destined end. But truly many of mankind are disbelievers in the meeting with their Lord.

 

9. Have they not travelled in the land and seen the nature of the consequence for those who were before them ? They were stronger than these in power, and they dug the earth and built upon it more than these have built. Messengers of their own came unto them with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty). Surely Allah wronged them not, but they did wrong themselves.

 

10. Then evil was the consequence to those who dealt in evil, because they denied the revelations of Allah and made a mock of them.

 

11. Allah produceth creation, then He reproduceth it, then unto Him ye will be returned.

 

12. And in the day when the Hour riseth the unrighteous will despair.

 

13. There will be none to intercede for them of those whom they made equal with Allah. And they will reject their partners (whom they ascribed unto Him).

 

14. In the day when the Hour cometh, in that day they will be sundered.

 

15. As for those who believed and did good works, they will be made happy in a Garden.

 

16. But as for those who disbelieved and denied Our revelations, and denied the meeting of the Hereafter, such will be brought to doom.

 

17. So glory be to Allah when ye enter the night and when ye enter the morning

 

18. Unto Him be praise in the heavens and the earth! - and at the sun's decline and in the noonday.

 

19. He bringeth forth the living from the dead, and He bringeth forth the dead from the living, and He reviveth the earth after her death. And even so will ye be brought forth.

 

20. And of His signs is this: He created you of dust, and behold you human beings, ranging widely!

 

21. And of His signs is this: He created for you spouses from yourselves that ye might find rest in them, and He ordained between you love and mercy. Lo! herein indeed are portents for folk who reflect.

 

22. And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Lo! herein indeed are portents for men of knowledge.

 

23. And of His signs is your slumber by night and by day, and your seeking of His bounty. Lo! herein indeed are portents for folk who heed.

 

24. And of His signs is this: He showeth you the lightning for a fear and for a hope, and sendeth down water from the sky, and thereby quickeneth the earth after her death. Lo! herein indeed are portents for folk who understand.

 

25. And of His signs is this: The heavens and the earth stand fast by His command, and afterward, when He calleth you, lo! from the earth ye will emerge.

 

26. Unto Him belongeth whosoever is in the heavens and the earth. All are obedient unto Him.

 

27. He it is Who produceth creation, then reproduceth it, and it is easier for Him. His is the Sublime Similitude in the heavens and the earth. He is the Mighty, the Wise.

 

 

28. He coineth for you a similitude of yourselves. Have ye, from among those whom your right hands possess, partners in the wealth We have bestowed upon you, equal with you in respect thereof, so that ye fear them as ye fear each other (that ye ascribe unto Us partners out of that which We created) ? Thus We display the revelations for people who have sense.

 

29. Nay, but those who do wrong follow their own lusts without knowledge. Who is able to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray ? For such there are no helpers.

 

30. So set thy purpose (O Muhammad) for religion as a man by nature upright - the nature (framed) of Allah, in which He hath created man. There is no altering (the laws of) Allah's creation. That is the right religion, but most men know not

 

31. Turning unto Him (only); and be careful of your duty unto Him and establish worship, and be not of those who ascribe partners (unto Him);

 

32. Of those who split up their religion and became schismatics, each sect exulting in its tenets.

 

33. And when harm toucheth men they cry unto their Lord, turning to Him in repentance; then, when they have tasted of His mercy, behold! some of them attribute partners to their Lord

 

34. So as to disbelieve in that which We have given them. (Unto such it is said): Enjoy yourselves awhile, but ye will come to know.

 

35. Or have We revealed unto them any warrant which speaketh of that which they associate with Him ?

 

36. And when We cause mankind to taste of mercy they rejoice therein; but if an evil thing befall them as the consequence of their own deeds, lo! they are in despair!

 

37. See they not that Allah enlargeth the provision for whom He will, and straiteneth (it for whom He will). Lo! herein indeed are portents for folk who believe.

 

38. So give to the kinsman his due, and to the needy, and to the wayfarer. That is best for those who seek Allah's Countenance. And such are they who are successful.

 

39. That which ye give in usury in order that it may increase on (other) people's property hath no increase with Allah; but that which ye give in charity, seeking Allah's Countenance, hath increase manifold.

 

 

� 40. Allah is He Who created you and then sustained you, then causeth you to die, then giveth life to you again. Is there any of your (so-called) partners (of Allah) that doeth aught of that ? Praised and Exalted be He above what they associate (with Him)!

 

41. Corruption doth appear on land and sea because of (the evil) which men's hands have done, that He may make them taste a part of that which they have done, in order that they may return.

 

42. Say (O Muhammad, to the disbelievers): Travel in the land, and see the nature of the consequence for those who were before you! Most of them were idolaters.

 

43. So set thy purpose resolutely for the right religion, before the inevitable day cometh from Allah. On that day mankind will be sundered-

 

44. Whoso disbelieveth must (then) bear the consequences of his disbelief, while those who do right make provision for themselves

 

45. That He may reward out of His bounty those who believe and do good works. Lo! He loveth not the disbelievers (in His guidance).

 

46. And of His signs is this: He sendeth herald winds to make you taste His mercy, and that the ships may sail at His command, and that ye may seek his favour, and that haply ye may be thankful.

 

47. Verily We sent before thee (Muhammad) messengers to their own folk. Then we took vengeance upon those who were guilty (in regard to them). To help believers is ever incumbent upon Us.

 

48. Allah is He Who sendeth the winds so that they raise clouds, and spreadeth them along the sky as pleaseth Him, and causeth them to break and thou seest the rain downpouring from within them. And when He maketh it to fall on whom He will of His bondmen, lo! they rejoice;

 

49. Though before that, even before it was sent down upon them, they were in despair.

 

50. Look, therefore, at the prints of Allah's mercy (in creation): how He quickeneth the earth after her death. Lo! He verily is the Quickener of the Dead, and He is Able to do all things.

 

51. And if We sent a wind and they beheld it yellow, they verily would still continue in their disbelief.

 

52. For verily thou (Muhammad) canst not make the dead to hear, nor canst thou make the deaf to hear the call when they have turned to flee.

 

53. Nor canst thou guide the blind out of their error. Thou canst make none to hear save those who believe in Our revelations so that they surrender (unto Him).

 

54. Allah is He Who shaped you out of weakness, then appointed after weakness strength, then, after strength, appointed weakness and grey hair. He createth what He will. He is the Knower, the Mighty.

 

55. And on the day when the Hour riseth the guilty will vow that they did tarry but an hour - thus were they ever deceived.

 

56. But those to whom knowledge and faith are given will say: The truth is, ye have tarried, by Allah's decree, until the Day of Resurrection. This is the Day of Resurrection, but ye used not to know.

 

57. In that day their excuses will not profit those who did injustice, nor will they be allowed to make amends.

 

58. Verily We have coined for mankind in this Qur'an all kinds of similitudes; and indeed if thou camest unto them with a miracle, those who disbelieve would verily exclaim: Ye are but tricksters!

 

59. Thus doth Allah seal the hearts of those who know not.

 

60. So have patience (O Muhammad)! Allah's promise is the very truth, and let not those who have no certainty make thee impatient.

 

 

Cara

 

Muhammad died a poor man, struggling 23 years to the above mesage to mankind, helping the poor and oppressed, freeing slaves, empowering and educating women, as an example, His wife Aisha was the source of a great deal of traditions ( Hadeeth) that formed the second most important source of wisdom aftre the quraan. Think, why would he invent such a lie? what would be the driver? and how would ita have benefited him.

 

 

Peace

 

 

Nur

[Johnny B]

Bro Nur , Time and again,you keep making strong and loaded statements without producing the necessary and supporting proofs , I could imagine whats driving you but unfortunately find it too dogmatic to be hurboured by a cincere and rational person . Your saddistic claim that "the life of an Agnostic/Atheistic person is an empty life" ,and our demand of you to account for that vacuous claim has led you to calling for a grandstanding, in where you make even more absurd claims.

Nur, resorting to grandstandings where you dictate the the subject matter maybe your dream of sort, but that you misrepresent your ( to be ) opponent in a purely pontificating manner harmed your already weak stance.

 

Cara is ( from what i could tell) an honest person that endeavors cincere skepticism and critical careful thinking, unlike you who seems to be a decent,highly spritual but somewhat slightly self-righteous .

If what you´ve just penned is or supposed to be a proof account or part of solid proofs of what your extraordinary belifs about Allah are based on ,you´ll have more of Muslims who disagree with you than Cara. please and i plead here, re-consider what Castro warns you for and let us stop right there. i see a diffrence in class. and i hate to see the beleif in Allah defended by not the best it has to offer.

 

Where is my Graad Bashi when you need him, maybe he is the most probable to make you realize what Castro is talking about.

[Baashi]

Originally posted by J B:

Where is my Graad Bashi when you need him, maybe he is the most probable to make you realize what Castro is talking about.

My boy JB you are one-sided partisan when it comes to religion and those who either want to advance its virtues or defend its principles. Sooner you realize this fact the better.

 

Now my buddy Castro is trying to help Nur sharpen his dacwa skills, and he is sincere and honest in his sporadic corrective posts I hope. But the fact of the matter is this is exactly the kind of thread that exposes all the shirk some od us harbour in their hearts and in my opinion no one is better equiped to engage such discussion than Bro. Nur.

 

Let Nur and Cara have a dialogue. They are both polite and considerate and they won't disappoint us, I hope. For once let us be good listeneres.

[Nur]

JB

 

If you dont know where you are going, every road will take you there.

 

 

Nur

[Abu-Salman]

Interesting and relevant topic which deserves a much wider audience.

 

Let's discuss the atheism position on Camel milk intellectual debate...