Islam's approach towards democracy

[Thinkerman]

Salam aleikum Fellow nomads.

 

As the the blessed month of Ramadan nears, i have once again started to try to gain more knowledge about islam than i have @ the moment. I came across this article on a link in www.islamiccity.com and found it quite interesting. It is a particularly contentious piece of writing given the issue that was discussed, and so i wanted to here the views of some more knwoledgable, and perhaps more critical nomads than myself to aid me in gettin a a more rounder view.

 

 

 

Islam's Approach Towards Democracy

Shaikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi

It is the duty of the Islamic Movement in the coming phase to stand firm against totalitarian and dictatorial rule, political despotism and usurpation of people's right. The Islamic Movement should always stand by political freedom, as represented by a true, not false, democracy. It should clearly declare its refusal of tyrants and steer clear of all dictators, even if some tyrants appear to have good intentions towards the Movement in order to obtain some gains and only for a time that is usually short, as has been shown by experience.

 

The Qur'an denounces tyrants such as Nimrudh, Pharoah, Haman and others, but it also dispraises those who follow tyrants and obey their orders. This is why Allah dispraises the people of Nuh saying : And (they) followed one whose wealth and children give him no increase but only loss.

 

Allah says of the people of Hud: And (they) followed the command of every proud obstinate (oppressor of the truth, from their leaders) (11:59) Allah also says of the people of Pharaoh: But they followed the command of Pharaoh, and the command of Pharaoh was no right guide. (11:97) And they obeyed him. Verily , they were a people who were rebellious (against Allah). (43:54)

 

A closer look at the history of the Muslim Ummah and the Islamic Movement in modern times should show clearly that the Islamic Ideology, the Islamic Movement and the Islamic Awakening have never flourished or borne fruit unless in an atmosphere of democracy and freedom , and have withered and become barren only at the times of oppression and tyranny that trod over the will of the people which clung to Islam. Such oppressive regimes imposed their Secularism, Socialism or Communism on their people by force and coercion, using covert torture and public executions, and employing those devilish tools that tore flesh, shed blood , crushed bones and destroyed souls.

 

We saw these practices in many Muslim countries including Turkey, Egypt, Syria, Iraq South Yemen, Somalia and North African States for varying periods of time, depending on the age or reign of the dictator in each country.

 

On the other hand, we saw the Islamic Movement and the Islamic Awakening bear fruit and flourish at the times of freedom and democracy, and in the wake of the collapse of imperial regimes that ruled people with fear and oppression. Therefore, I would not imagine that the Islamic Movement could support anything other than political freedom and democracy. The tyrants allowed every voice to be raised, except the voice of Islam; and let every trend express itself in the form of a political party or a body of some sort, except the Islamic current which is the only trend that actually speaks for this Ummah and expresses its creed, values ,essence and its very existence.

 

However, some Islamists still have their reservations on democracy and are even wary of the word 'democracy' itself. What I wish to stress here is that Islam is not democracy and democracy is not Islam. I would rather say that Islam is not attributed to any principle or system. Islam is unique in its means, ends and methodologies, and I do not wish that Western democracy be carried over to us with its bad ideologies and values without us adding to it from our values and ideologies in order to integrate it into our comprehensive system.

 

However, the tools and guaranties created by democracy are as close as can ever be to the realization of the political principles brought to this world by Islam to put a leash on the ambitions and whims of rulers. These principles are : shura , nasihah (advice), enjoining the good and forbidding the evil disobeying illegal orders, resisting unbelief and changing wrong by force when possible. It is only in democracy and political freedom that the power of parliament is evident that people's deputies can withdraw confidence from any government that breaches the constitution. It is also only in such an environment that the strength of free press , free parliament, opposition and the masses is most felt.

 

The fears of some people here that democracy makes the people a source of power and even legislation (although legislation is Allah's alone) should not be heeded, because we are supposed to be speaking of a population that is Muslim in its majority and has accepted Allah as its Lord, Muhammad as its Prophet and Islam as its Deen. Such a people would not be expected to pass a legislation that contradicts Islam and the incontestable principles and conclusive rules of Islam.

 

In any case, these fears can be overcome by one article stipulating that any legislation contradicting the incontestable provisions of Islam shall be null and void because Islam is the religion of the State and the source of legitimacy of all its institutions and therefore may not be contradicted, as a branch may not run against the main origin.

 

It should be known that the acceptance of the principle that legislation of rule belong to Allah does not take away from the Ummah its right to seek for itself the codes necessary to regulate its ever changing life and worldly affairs.

 

What we seek is that legislations and codes be within the limits of the flawless texts and the overall objectives of the Shari'ah and the Islamic Message. The binding texts are very few, while the area of 'permissibility' or legislative-free space is quite wide and the texts themselves are so flexible and capacious as to accommodate more than one understanding and accept more than one interpretation. This leads to the existence of several schools and philosophies within the expansive framework of Islam.

 

April / May 2002

[Haashim]

Shuju, bro, many muslims today are very cautious about names but as our prophet (S.C.W) said the wisdom is the lost item of the believer, wherever he/she gets it's for him/her, our corrupt and oppressor rulers not only oppress our people but also they decieve us by telling us that the democracy is kafir system and it's not valid for us using some of sheikhs who get some money and power from them but as Sheikh Yousuf Qaradawi said .....some Islamists still have their reservations on democracy and are even wary of the word 'democracy' itself. What I wish to stress here is that Islam is not democracy and democracy is not Islam. I would rather say that Islam is not attributed to any principle or system. Islam is unique in its means, ends and methodologies, and I do not wish that Western democracy be carried over to us with its bad ideologies and values without us adding to it from our values and ideologies in order to integrate it into our comprehensive system...........

 

So, only our rulers who are afraid from democracy or shura because they're losing power, they want to keep until their funeral and after funeral they want their son's or brothers to rule us so they have to use islam and so-called sheikhs to defend thier chair and unfortunately many of us accepted and believed what these sheikhs are saying that the islam is against democracy because we don't want western influence in our society but why we don't say forget the democracy LACNATALULAAHI CALAL DEMOCRACY but we want freedom we want equality we want SHUURA.

when many ULUMA'S like sheikh Yousuf Qaradawi and others say that they put in prison many years and later exiled and excuted some of them like

SAYID QUTUB and many others.

and in SAUDI ARABIA recaently they prisoned Salman Al Awda an Aaidh Al Qarni and many others and now they're in a so-called house arrestthey cann't speak they cann't give a islamic lesson anymore. that's the BELADUL TAWXIID as some say. is TAWHEED against FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION.

I still remember, it was many years ago when one sheikh said FIRCOON was better than many of our rulers because fircoon didn't silented MUSA AND HAARUUN (C.S)when they said ther's other god than you, instead he and his advicers are said to Musa and Haaruun (C.S)produce all your evidence and our appointment is that date and that place.

Have u ever heard our rulers saying to any challenger produce your evidence and making appointment etc. ALLAAHU MUSTACAAN.

 

......................

 

ALLOW NAGA QABO KUWAAS....... ANNAGA HADDEYBA NOO SHIRSANYIHIIN ........

[Thunder]

The hold piece looks very shady to me, and these are the parts that made it look so.

 

<Islam's Approach Towards Democracy

 

"...in the coming phase to stand firm against totalitarian and dictatorial rule, political despotism and usurpation of people's right."

 

Is the "coming phase" the showdown between Saddam Huseen and Bush?

 

"A closer look at the history of the Muslim Ummah and the Islamic Movement in modern times should show clearly that the Islamic Ideology, the Islamic Movement and the Islamic Awakening have never flourished or borne fruit unless in an atmosphere of ."

 

When did that happen??

 

"On the other hand, we saw the Islamic Movement and the Islamic Awakening bear fruit and flourish at the times of freedom and democracy, and in the wake of the collapse of imperial regimes that ruled people with fear and oppression. Therefore, I would not imagine that the Islamic Movement could support anything other than political "

 

I'm confused on how he.she came to this conclusion.

 

"However, some Islamists still have their reservations on democracy and are even wary of the word 'democracy' itself."

 

Isn't the pillar of democracy seperation of church(religion) and state and the rule belongs to the people??

 

"What I wish to stress here is that Islam is not democracy and democracy is not Islam."

 

Confused again. Isn't an ISlamic way of life what the "Islamists" want, and if so since Democracy isn't Islam why choose Democratic way of life over Islam? I'm lost!!

 

"I would rather say that Islam is not attributed to any principle or system."

 

What does this mean???

 

"Islam is unique in its means, ends and methodologies, and I do not wish that Western democracy be carried over to us with its bad ideologies and values without us adding to it from our values and ideologies in order to integrate it into our comprehensive system."

 

This is how Muslims are tricked, if you are going to "add and integrate democracy(kaafir way of life) into your life" you suggesting one that your way of life is incomplete, inadequate and has to be completed, corrected by integrating it with nonIslamic ideologies that in the end will take over your life.

 

"However, the tools and guaranties created by democracy are as close as can ever be to the realization of the political principles brought to this world by Islam to put a leash on the ambitions and whims of rulers. These principles are : shura , nasihah (advice), enjoining the good and forbidding the evil disobeying illegal orders, resisting unbelief and changing wrong by force when possible. It is only in democracy and political freedom that the power of parliament is evident that people's deputies can withdraw confidence from any government that breaches the constitution. It is also only in such an environment that the strength of free press , free parliament, opposition and the masses is most felt."

 

"Democracy the kaafir that draws its power from man "parliament" "

 

"The fears of some people here that democracy makes the people a source of power and even legislation (although legislation is Allah's alone) should not be heeded, because we are supposed to be speaking of a population that is Muslim in its majority and has accepted Allah as its Lord, Muhammad as its Prophet and Islam as its Deen. Such a people would not be expected to pass a legislation that contradicts Islam and the incontestable principles and conclusive rules of Islam."

 

Quran and Sunnah are the only sources of legislation. It doesn't matter if the muslims are the majority or the minority.

 

"In any case, these fears can be overcome by one article stipulating that any legislation contradicting the incontestable provisions of Islam shall be null and void because Islam is the religion of the State and the source of legitimacy of all its institutions and therefore may not be contradicted, as a branch may not run against the main origin."

 

Democracy contradicts ISlam since it draws it power, legislation etc form man and should be null.

 

"It should be known that the acceptance of the principle that legislation of rule belong to Allah does not take away from the Ummah its right to seek for itself the codes necessary to regulate its ever changing life and worldly affairs."

 

Subhaana laah "seek the codes.." Allah has sent Muhammed SAW the Quran and the Sunnah what other codes are there besides what Allah has already sent??

 

"What we seek is that legislations and codes be within the limits of the flawless texts and the overall objectives of the Shari'ah and the Islamic Message. The binding texts are very few, while the area of 'permissibility' or legislative-free space is quite wide and the texts themselves are so flexible and capacious as to accommodate more than one understanding and accept more than one interpretation. This leads to the existence of several schools and philosophies within the expansive framework of Islam. "

 

To me this another article that is intended to misguide Muslims. Walaahu Aclam.

[Thinkerman]

Thx very Much for the responses, Muraad Thunder, i suppose i couldnt ask for better responses both contarsting the articles in different aspect.

 

I my self found the article interesting because the assertion it made was a very new idea to me, but am not so knowledgable so i presume that this assertion has been debated over before.

 

What i do find persuasive in the article is the notion that islam rather than being superseeded by democracy, can as was stated in the article be incorporated into islam as means of admistrating a country on the basis that islam is the religon of mankind and that 'their is no complusion in this deen'.

 

It need not be called democracy it need not necessarliy be viewed as a Kafirr system because i fail to belive that those princple that these so-called civilised countries in the west aspire to was soley created/developed by themselves.

 

However such a presumtion is somewhat debatable as Thunder quite rightly says The Quran and the sunnah are the Primary and indeed Only sources of Legislation that can be applicable to an islamic state.

 

I would like to finish by saying i can't see how a democratic regime, or a regime that claims to be so can prohibite people form @ the very least practising their deen, unlike regimes like Eygpt where i understand the policy is to terrorise sheiks and imaans for simply preaching the true teachings of islamm to the point of where the arrested or exihled.

[Haashim]

bro, Thunder don't worry about the democracy because our leaders will not allow this kufr system to be practised in our countries, they know what is good for us and what is bad and they also have good ulumaa. according CULUMAAUL SULDAAN it's prohibited to disobey our AWLIYAAUL UMUUR (leaders) because this will lead a big FITNAH we have to say yes whatever they choose and we have to advice them enz, but they didn't say anything about the billions they spending to satisfy their desires, they didn't say anything about their endless corruption, tey didn't say anything about riba, slavery, social classes and many many other sins which became daily life of our nations but they said DEMOCRACY is kufr system we don't need it.

 

MAANSHAALAAH CALAA HAAULAAH........

 

....................

 

ALLOOW DAALIMIINTA NAGA QABO, MIDABKEY DOONAAN HA YEESHEENE

[Thinkerman]

Preaching Democracy, Teaching Islam

Turkish Group Promotes Tolerance in Germany, but Skepticism Remains

 

By Peter Finn

Washington Post Foreign Service

Thursday, December 19, 2002; Page A22

 

HAMBURG -- An imam in a gray tunic suit and soft fez-like hat recited verses from the Koran in bursts of piercing song one recent night at the Boeckmann Street mosque here. A chattering crowd, waiting to break the Ramadan fast, hushed. And the world outside -- the nearby sex-shops, the furtive drug trade, the neon-lit evening commuters and the watchful police, stationed just around the corner -- seemed momentarily like a distant planet.

 

In this mosque, tucked down a narrow street in the city center, a quiet revolution may be stirring. A tolerant European Islam, the wish of many of the continent's 11 million believers, is being showcased in such one-time bastions of fundamentalism as this Turkish place of worship.

 

The mosque is preaching democracy.

 

The prayers complete, Ramazan Ucar, the 36-year-old elected imam, stepped before an invited dinner audience that included the American consul, representatives from Christian churches and the local Jewish community and German politicians.

 

Speaking in German from a prepared script, he nervously pleaded for a leap of faith. Not toward Islam, but toward the idea that his group is firmly committed to the democratic principles that define the German state and its secular constitution. "If there first appeared to be a contradiction between Islam and democracy, we believe [now] that only democratic society guarantees a rational life as a Muslim," said Ucar, a member of a Turkish group called Milli Gorus, which is on the German government's watch list of Islamic radical groups.

 

The jury is still out on whether his sentiments represent the beginnings of Milli Gorus's transformation or whether he is tolerated by the group's older and secretive national leadership as a tactical retreat from the public advocacy of fundamentalism. But the possibility that the isolationist orthodoxy of one generation is being abandoned by the next is an intriguing development on a continent where the integration of Muslims remains a troubling issue.

 

Ucar's words are all the more surprising coming from a man who said in an interview that he is routinely followed by the German security agents and whose mosque is featured in annual federal and state reports on extremism in Germany, alongside chapters on neo-Nazis and Marxist revolutionaries.

 

Across the city, in the Hamburg state Office for the Protection of the Constitution, a domestic intelligence agency, officials contend that Ucar, by virtue of his membership in Milli Gorus, is a radical who supports a parallel, theocratic society for Germany's Muslim population. The organization he belongs to, officials say, is anti-constitutional, anti-Semitic and intent on imposing an austere Islamic order not only on Ucar's native Turkey but also within Germany and Europe.

 

"They try to show that they are good democrats," said Manfred Murck, the office's deputy director. "But still we have suspicions, and a little more than suspicion, that they are doing this for tactical reasons. If they were too clear with their real plans, they could be [banned.]"

 

There are doubters in the Turkish community as well.

 

"I want them to be democrats," said Lale Akgun, a Social Democratic member of the German parliament who was born in Istanbul. "It's very important for our community, but I'm skeptical. . . . They tell us they are great democrats. But I want to see what they are doing in 10 years, for example with regard to women's rights, women and men together in the political arena. They still need to convince people."

 

Ucar's German boosters, however, envision a generational and philosophical shift and believe that Germany should encourage it.

 

"We have change in the sense that we have a young generation in Milli Gorus who want to become German citizens in the full meaning of the word," said Udo Steinbach, director of the German Orient Institute in Hamburg. "They criticize the Milli Gorus leadership as undemocratic, and they want to impose, sooner or later, their values on Milli Gorus to make it more transparent. It's a grass-roots movement led by young people. And I believe in them."

 

Translated as "National Vision," Milli Gorus has its roots in the 1960s as an unofficial European arm of the Islamic Movement in Turkey led by Necmettin Erbakan, whose Welfare Party came to power in 1996 but was overthrown by the military in 1997.

 

Headquartered in Germany, Milli Gorus and earlier incarnations under different names were led at first by Erbakan's brother and then his nephew, Mehmet Sabri Erbakan. It was a closed family enterprise, staffed by Erbakan acolytes sent from Turkey and financed, in part, with cash of dubious origin, according to German officials.

 

The group says it has 27,000 members in Germany. But its influence is much greater in the Turkish community because of its network of 500 mosques, which provide educational, social and leisure services.

 

For years, Milli Gorus advocated a "just order," interpreted by German authorities as an Islamic theocracy, for secular Turkey and Europe. The group did not formally advocate force, but its rhetoric has often contained violent images.

 

"Our battle is against Turkey, Europe and against the whole world," said one former Milli Gorus leader, Ali Yuksel, in a speech in Berlin. At a rally in Neu-Ulm in southern Germany in June 2001, a crowd chanted to Necmettin Erbakan, "If you tell us we should fight, we'll fight, if you tell us we should kill, we will kill."

 

Books advocating violent holy war and promoting Holocaust denial were a staple of the group's book sales for years, and have only recently been removed from its lists, according to German officials. "The Holocaust Lie" by the Turkish Holocaust denier Harun Yahya, for instance, was removed from sale by Milli Gorus only in early 2001.

 

Murck, the domestic intelligence official, cited a statement from a newspaper he said is affiliated with Milli Gorus (the group says the publication is not a formal part of the organization): "In the next century one will see the third European Islamic civilization." He picked another incendiary statement and another, including broadsides against equal rights for women.

 

Ucar counters that the skeptics are trapped in the past, failing to recognize a slow but inexorable reformation. It will be destroyed, he said, if the group is driven underground.

 

"Our congregations have changed greatly," said Ucar, who said he will not allow radical or anti-Semitic material in his mosque and preaches on the virtues of pluralism in his Friday sermons, which once a month are delivered in German. "If members were focused on events in Turkey, these things have lost importance here over the years. Generations are changing. Principles are changing. . . . Ideas are changing."

 

Those changes have been accelerated by the fallout from the terrorist attacks on the United States and by the eclipsing of Erbakan in the recent Turkish elections and the disgrace of a nephew in Germany who resigned recently as the group's leader after he was found to be having an adulterous affair with a Christian woman.

 

"All I can say to our critics is what I repeat over and over: Believe what we say and judge us only by our actions," said Oguz Ucuncu, the 33-year-old general secretary of the organization and an ally of Ucar. " . . . This is a new generation that believes what it says. When people say we are like wolves in sheep's clothing, we can only fight these prejudices by showing that we are different."

 

One of the leaders of Milli Gorus in the Netherlands, Haci Karacaer, recently opened a dialogue on minority rights with the country's gay and lesbian community and consulted a Jewish architect on plans for a mosque in Amsterdam. And local German leaders such as Ucar have opened their mosques to all comers, including their Jewish neighbors.

 

"These talks, in particular with the Muslims, are very important," said Dov-Levy Barsilay, state rabbi of Hamburg. "I have met with Iman Ramazan a few times. . . . We have mostly talked about the problems we have as minorities in Hamburg. They are often similar problems."

 

Milli Gorus and similar organizations are engaged in a public relations effort to improve their image and understanding of Islam, with open days at mosques, sponsored dialogues between Muslim and Christian women, and -- most flamboyantly -- a road-show mosque.

 

The Islamobil, as it's called, is a multimedia mosque that travels on a six-wheeled truck to German cities to bring the religion and its believers closer to Germans of different faiths. Technically independent of Milli Gorus, the Islamobil, graced with a pop-up minaret, is, nonetheless, an extension of the group, according to German officials.

 

"The goal is to provide the opportunity for people to get to know the real Islam, to show that peaceful cohabitation is possible, and to tear down stereotypes," said Metin Aydin, managing director of Islam Info, the nonprofit group that runs Islamobil.

 

Touch-screen computers and videos allow visitors to get information in German on basic aspects of Islam while volunteers answer detailed questions. Passages from the Koran are recited, and music is played as visitors walk through the 40-foot-long mosque.

 

"It was very friendly and open," said Horst Wadehn of Bruehl, a city near Bonn in western Germany where the Islamobil, currently undergoing repairs, made a stop last year. "It was for information only, not at all about converting people to Islam. With Islam, it seems everybody talks about it, but no one is informed."

 

© 2002 The Washington Post Company

[La Fidele]

There is great skepticism in regards to the relationship between Islam and democracy, but I truly believe that there is a way of successfully adopting the attributes of democratic rule into an Islamic state.

One strong arguement that I would like to bring up is the fact that the legislative bodies of all democratic systems (whether the British, French, American style, etc) are all restricted by their constitutions, whether written or not. Of democracy's greatest attractions, is the checks-and-balance system that is automatically put in place by the fact that the powers of the executive, legislation and judiciary are autonomous and yet all vulnerable to the constitution. Instead of a body of irrefutable, man-made laws, I suggest that the Supreme Court of our proposed Islamic Democracy rule by the decrees of the Quran. Just like in current western democracies, any bills or legislation would be struck down if it does not abide to Sharia law. A democracy with this fundamental base could surely not be considered "kafir".

 

Also, I think the prime reason for resistance against democracy is the fact that nearly all modern democracies practice secularization. The extent to which they really do belongs to another discussion, but I don't think that secularization is a necessary feature of democracy. The fundamentals of democracy are the population's right to free and fair elections, and that the legitimate government guarantees the people their civil and political liberties. Denying these rights leads to the tyrannical rule condemned by the Quran.

[La Fidele]

There is great skepticism in regards to the relationship between Islam and democracy, but I truly believe that there is a way of successfully adopting the attributes of democratic rule into an Islamic state.

One strong arguement that I would like to bring up is the fact that the legislative bodies of all democratic systems (whether the British, French, American style, etc) are all restricted by their constitutions, whether written or not. Of democracy's greatest attractions, is the checks-and-balance system that is automatically put in place by the fact that the powers of the executive, legislation and judiciary are autonomous and yet all vulnerable to the constitution. Instead of a body of irrefutable, man-made laws, I suggest that the Supreme Court of our proposed Islamic Democracy rule by the decrees of the Quran. Just like in current western democracies, any bills or legislation would be struck down if it does not abide to Sharia law. A democracy with this fundamental base could surely not be considered "kafir".

 

Also, I think the prime reason for resistance against democracy is the fact that nearly all modern democracies practice secularization. The extent to which they really do belongs to another discussion, but I don't think that secularization is a necessary feature of democracy. The fundamentals of democracy are the population's right to free and fair elections, and that the legitimate government guarantees the people their civil and political liberties. Denying these rights leads to the tyrannical rule condemned by the Quran.

 

Anyways, my only fear though is, because an Islamic democracy would not practice secularization, western democracies would be extremely hesitant, if not hostile, to accepting this as another system of democracy. But forget them. We're damned if we seek to satisfy them, damned if we don't.

[Samafal]

Jazeera

 

that was very good presented and constructive urgument but i am not happy about the term ''democracy'' itself and if we take as you explained it, i think the definition given to democracy will be lost which means '' The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.

''Majority rule''.

''The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community''.

 

This means simply that people are the power, they choose what they want how they want it whether bad or good. In our case the rule and constitution belongs to the Almighty Allah becouse He is the the creator And He knows best what is good for the humans. Islam have equivalent or should i say similra phenomenon as '' Democrcy'' which is '' Shuraa'' which Means structure of the goverment is open to the public to discuss themselves and Choose the way of governing and what to do at the times of crisis but the Constitution goes back to the Kuran.

w/salaam

[La Fidele]

Yacquub, thanks for the constructive criticism. In the definitions you gave for democracy, actually not all democratic systems are founded on `majority rule.` Some practice a proportional electoral system that makes sure that parties get the same number of seats as the voters credit them.

I can understand where the discomfort arises from voters being given the power, but I don`t think it`s such an extreme obstacle. Voters have never been given the power to elect Supreme Court justices, only to members of legislature. There wouldn`t be any difference in what I proposed. I`m not exactly familiar with the system of appointing Islamic clerics, but I`m sure they go through a similar process as the justices of western supreme courts. And lastly,

''The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community''

Doesn`t Islam endorse this anyways?

[Samafal]

''The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community''

Doesn`t Islam endorse this anyways?[/QB]

 

well jazeera but what does it mean?

In islam equality and respect for the individuals within a community are restricted by the Holy book and the Sunna where for them it means ''No restrictions'' Gay- communities deserve equality with in the society'' ''Nude women are practising their rights for equalty and freedom'', People are free to say whatever they want even if it is against Allah and his Messenger. Then i Ask you my dear '' Is is this THe Islam we know?''

[Thinkerman]

Thx for contributing to the topic ppl much appreciated.

 

I learned somethin new from both of your replys.

[La Fidele]

Thanks for posting the topic, Shujui.

Yacquub, I understand Social equality to mean that social benefits (ie. programs and services administered by the government) are available equally to all. I meant my meaning in the non-discriminatory constitutional sense of "equality before and under the law". Social equality should not be mistaken for the constitutional rights of freedom of expression and speech. Anyways, of course gay rights would be unfounded in an Islamic system. I'm a bit confused with "nude women's rights." And lastly, there has never been a system of rule that could completely control the thoughts and expressions of their citizens, and I think that's a great thing. If the statements are heretic, there is appropriate justice due. Otherwise, constructive criticism is always welcomed . I hope this satisfies you.

[Samafal]

In democracy there is always be heretic statements as its principles are against the islamic constitution. I am sure you will agree with me that democracy can not be reconciled with Islam as the way it is practised and defined nowadays unless fundenmental change is made to it in which case the there will be no need to be called '' Democracy''( May be, we come with something else).

 

in my perception, social equality means every thing and does not necessarily be confined on programs and services but equality for different societies and cultures hence my point. That does not mean in Islam there is no equality. There is equality but on its own form not the way equality is considered by them. I hope my point is much clear , let me now.

 

Salaams

[La Fidele]

Yacquub, thank you for your contribution. I'm sure you and I have the same vision, but we're just articulating it differently. It's fair to see democracy in its current light, under the practice of Western societies we know conflict with our faith. And yes, in any case where democratic-like, or shoora, systems are taken into consideration, it will never share the same definition as a western liberal democracy. I tried to put across the point that shoora and democracy indeed have several similarities. And just like any other foreign body, democracy has some attributes that should definitely be considered, maybe eventually adopted. I find any suggestion a step forward from despotic, authoritarian rule so rampant in Islamic countries nowadays. If you would like further readings making a similar point to mine, I would like to suggest to you an article by Dr. Ja`far Sheikh Idris (http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=545).