Kenya Troops Advance in Somalia, May Push to Kismayo

[The Zack]

Kenya' incursion cannot be compared to Ethiopia's occupation. Unless someone has been in deep sleep or totally out of touch, one should know the difference. Today's al shabaab can't be compared to yesterday's ICU. Come one people! Ethiopia was enemy, Kenya is not. Ethiopia "stability" depends on Somalia's destruction, Kenya's is not. Ethiopia invaded the Somali capital, Kenya is not. The emotional reaction of this incursion.need to.stop, people need to react with objectivity, not subjectivity!

[nuune]

^^ Faarax, Abti kuwaneeto yeesan dhiig-kar kugu ridin, kaaseey kaa korreeyo xaga diinta kala sheekeeso waa sxbkeen Naxar siyaasada kuma fiicno.

 

 

Edit:

 

 

Zack, I will hold that statement of yours against you Inshaa Allaah, Ethiopia and Kenya are of the same page, Ethiopia cadawtinimadey kuu qabto hadey cadeesatey and Kenya ay qarsatey cadawtanimadey kuu qabto doesn't mean Kenya is not your enemy, you need to live in kenya by at least 10 years to know what they stand for, bahasha ha iska maquuran adoon qurqurin biyaha

[Mohammed]

The Zack;752353 wrote:

Kenya' incursion cannot be compared to Ethiopia's occupation. Unless someone has been in deep sleep or totally out of touch, one should know the difference. Today's al shabaab can't be compared to yesterday's ICU. Come one people! Ethiopia was enemy, Kenya is not. Ethiopia "stability" depends on Somalia's destruction, Kenya's is not. Ethiopia invaded the Somali capital, Kenya is not. The emotional reaction of this incursion.need to.stop, people need to react with objectivity, not subjectivity!

Spot on.

[Naxar Nugaaleed]

Faarax-Brawn;752349 wrote:

Let me guess what the better option is for you naxar? Invasion?

LOL, that there is a confusion about that is truly sad Faarax

[GoldCoast]

Such shortsighted and almost dogmatic thinking is incredible. Incredible especially because you'd assume Somalis who are aware of the trends of their conflicts and the groups within it might have learned something along the way. But alas, it seems all it takes is for a black and white narrative for everyone to lose all logic.

 

These mantras of AlShabaab being evil and satanic child killers obscure a more complex issue at here. It can easily be established that this group has played a negative role in Somalia. However to argue that they are the ONLY factor that contributes to instability, conflict, famine etc. is laughable IMO. You don't have to support AlShabaab to acknowledge the negative roleforeign intervention has played in this conflict. You don't have to support AlShabaab to recognize that this type of unnecessary escalation is the exact thing that could serve as a catalyst to unite its divided leadership.

 

I also find it incredibly dishonest for people to pretend their key reasons for supporting it are with regards to civilians well being and what could be done to them by alShabaab. This invasion, if sustained, will do untold damage to areas already under a famine crisis. The only groups who have been operating to provide medical attention among other things will be forced to pull out. This will contribute directly to more deaths than alShabaab could dream of combined. There is a reason MSF the same organization whose workers were kidnapped( supposedly by AS) have completely condemned and disassociated themselves from the invasion. They've stated there is zero info on the identity of the kidnappers and do not agree with this escalation taken on their behalf. They've also added that it will place their doctors under great distress throughout Southern Somalia and will negatively impact civilians. Considering this its quite clear this is politics at play and not humanitarian interest.

 

This is without touching upon the fact, its campaign will likely fail in "defeating" AS. So what exactly is the rationale for supporting this?

[Naxar Nugaaleed]

forgot all that, no one is under the illusion that there is a singular cause of the Somali conflict, the question do you dispute the these shabaabs are the greatest evil this country faces? the killing of students graduating, the killing of children waiting for scholarship, the man-made famine that has taken the lifes of countless men, women and children. people like you are obsessed with lofty ideas of nation and territory (which is kenya is not violating because they have permission to attack these animals) but what is the significance of land with out its people. can there be the Somalia so many of you are obsessed without Somalis.

[A_Khadar]

Don't you sometimes think that this is a new plan to prolong Somali’s crisis. Now it seems that things are getting better and AS is on the run. This new incursion will only marginalizes many people and tilts them to the side of AS. This is an aggression and unnecessary unless it’s consequences are the needed end results by international community.

[Mayaani]

The Zack;752353 wrote:

Kenya' incursion cannot be compared to Ethiopia's occupation. Unless someone has been in deep sleep or totally out of touch, one should know the difference. Today's al shabaab can't be compared to yesterday's ICU. Come one people! Ethiopia was enemy, Kenya is not. Ethiopia "stability" depends on Somalia's destruction, Kenya's is not. Ethiopia invaded the Somali capital, Kenya is not. The emotional reaction of this incursion.need to.stop, people need to react with objectivity, not subjectivity!

War nin yahow wax iskula har. Laba cadow wax isuma kaa dhamaan. adiga malaha wax aynaan dadka ogayn baad ogtahay

Xalku wuxuu ku jiraa Somalida inay Al-shabaab iska celiso.

[GoldCoast]

Naxar Nugaaleed;752372 wrote:

forgot all that, no one is under the illusion that there is a singular cause of the Somali conflict, the question do you dispute the these shabaabs are the greatest evil this country faces? the killing of students graduating, the killing of children waiting for scholarship, the man-made famine that has taken the lifes of countless men, women and children. people like you are obsessed with lofty ideas of nation and territory (which is kenya is not violating because they have permission to attack these animals) but what is the significance of land with out its people. can there be the Somalia so many of you are obsessed without Somalis.

Save the pontificating. If you believe alShabaab is the only cause of the famine, you are being dishonest. It is "manmade" conflicts like the one you are supporting right now that have contributed to the lack of food security in the region. Even the United Nations will disagree with the contention that they alone have caused it. Its the dogmatic pursuit of "victory" over AS at all costs that has allowed people to completely disregard he livelihoods of civilians in the regions in question. Ironically much of what you accuse me of you are supporting. Its your lofty pursuit of uniting the nation and territory out of AS control that damns the people who live under them regardless of the realistic nature of these policies.

 

What do you think this Kenyan invasion will contribute to the famine? Alleviate it? Few weeks down the line when the few feeding sites and doctors who are operating in famine regions pull out because of insecurity, will you continue to justify your support because of your concerns for the "people"? As neutral observers like the MSF have already remarked, this escalation will have huge negative impact on civilians living there. All for a "lofty goal"( your words) that history has shown cannot be attained from outside. The Kenyans will not defeat AS,it can only come from within period.

 

Are civilian deaths( theyll likely be massive if this is sustained) to be disregarded because of the Kenyans "intention"? Or do you measure your repulsion at innocent loss of life simply based on who is behind it?

[Naxar Nugaaleed]

Listen the worst hit areas, in fact the only places where famine was declared is shabaab controlled areas. did they cause, pretty much when you refuse outside assistance for starving people because waa "gaalo" and then refuse for these people to leave in search of sustenance at gun point, yeah they're pretty much to the cause.

 

What will the invasion do? first its not an invasion. two it will do one of two two things. what ever ground is wrestled from the shabaab however temporary, means food aid can reach these remote areas. or, the will further weaken the shabaab and allow the TFG to assert to assert itself into more areas. either outcome is better then the current state of affairs.

 

all that is beside the point: Shabaab are a threat to Somalia and Somalis, any action that weakens them is good for Somalia.

[Jacpher]

The Zack;752353 wrote:

Kenya' incursion cannot be compared to Ethiopia's occupation. Unless someone has been in deep sleep or totally out of touch, one should know the difference. Today's al shabaab can't be compared to yesterday's ICU. Come one people! Ethiopia was enemy, Kenya is not. Ethiopia "stability" depends on Somalia's destruction, Kenya's is not. Ethiopia invaded the Somali capital, Kenya is not. The emotional reaction of this incursion.need to.stop, people need to react with objectivity, not subjectivity!

I opposed the Amxaaro invasion from the get-go and will do the same with the Kenyan invasion. Neither of these countries nor another nation should set a foot in my country. Let me get that out of the way and let me play a little devils advocate here.

 

My friend Zaky, how can you explain opposing Ethiopia which was given the green light and was invited to aid the Somali government at the time to battle with the ICU? I know it was Yeey's government, sponsored and put together by foreign powers but still in paper, Ethiopia was acting on the needs and orders of Somali government, for that matter, in papers, it wasn't a violation of the sovereignty of Somalia. On the other hand, Kenya is clearly breaking/violating our sovereignty and any UN mandate between nations. We know thus far, Somali government said they did not allow or held any talks with Kenyan government to militarily intervene into Somalia. Help me understand how you don't see the war of aggression of Kenya is Somalia as it is? At least the Ethiopian troops had papers backing them, [not that it mattes] but this Kenyan incursion doesn't.

[GoldCoast]

Naxar Nugaaleed;752379 wrote:

Listen the worst hit areas, in fact the only places where famine was declared is shabaab controlled areas. did they cause, pretty much when you refuse outside assistance for starving people because waa "gaalo" and then refuse for these people to leave in search of sustenance at gun point, yeah they're pretty much to the cause.

 

What will the invasion do? first its not an invasion. two it will do one of two two things. what ever ground is wrestled from the shabaab however temporary, means food aid can reach these remote areas. or, the will further weaken the shabaab and allow the TFG to assert to assert itself into more areas. either outcome is better then the current state of affairs.

 

all that is beside the point: Shabaab are a threat to Somalia and Somalis, any action that weakens them is good for Somalia.

 

Incredible simplication of the matters at hand. Here is a link from Ken Menkhaus, a U.S. scholar on the underlying causes of the famine

 

Somalia hasn’t been self-sufficient since the early 1970s. But aid delivery has been suspended in recent years for three main reasons: Insecurity – In 2008 a third of all casualties worldwide occurred in Somalia, so aid groups started pulling out because they couldn’t justify the risk. Second, the U.S. government’s suspension of aid due to counterterrorism grounds; allowing aid to reach Shabaab was a violation of the Patriot Act. Third was Shabaab’s ban on most international agencies from working in the areas it controlled, accusing them of being spies and of trying to put Somali farmers out of business.

He mentions three manmade reasons, one being insecurity and that is from continuous conflict in the regions that has been pursued from both sides in question without respite. Two he mentions the US govt suspension of aid, due to its Patriot Act. Three being AlShabaab's ban of the WFP. See this nuanced view considers everything at hand. Its not a black and white issue. Its established that foreign intervention and poltiics has contributed to the famine. This Kenyan invasion falls right in line with the manmade reasons that have pushed these regions to the brink and you don't even realize it.

 

As for your contention that it'll supposedly allow aid in. No aid groups even support this reasoning. In fact the ones who are already operating in AlShabaab territory including MSF and Islamic Relief have already raised concerns about how this will hurt their ability to reach people. If their is heavy conflict in the regions these organizations will pull out their workers, not move in.

 

AlShabaabs destructive decision making was helping to contribute to the splintering of the group, internally. It was losing sway because of its decisions it made domestically. Instead of recognizing this process, you are wishing on a foreign policy that has proven to be just as damaging for decades.

[Faarax-Brawn]

The Zack;752353 wrote:

Kenya' incursion cannot be compared to Ethiopia's occupation. Unless someone has been in deep sleep or totally out of touch, one should know the difference. Today's al shabaab can't be compared to yesterday's ICU. Come one people! Ethiopia was enemy, Kenya is not. Ethiopia "stability" depends on Somalia's destruction, Kenya's is not. Ethiopia invaded the Somali capital, Kenya is not. The emotional reaction of this incursion.need to.stop, people need to react with objectivity, not subjectivity!

Objectivity? Really? Indulge me bal mjomba?

 

What is the bloody objective of this "incursion"? Grab the abducted foreigners and then back to base? No? OK, lets say they do that. what will you do the next time they come back and abduct more foreigners or better yet, bomb some place in Nairobi? or Garissa?

 

I know for sure This has nothing to do with "protecting Kenya", or bringing back those abducted tourists(for all we know, this could be an inside job).... because if that was the objective, Kenya Wouldve gone to war with Ethiopia and Uganda they had several incursions by Ethiopian shiftas in the northern part of the country and Museveni's claim to an island in Western Kenya.

 

Look,friends and foes. Your country is invaded. You are cheering. You are foolish.

[ElPunto]

GoldCoast;752368 wrote:

Such shortsighted and almost dogmatic thinking is incredible. Incredible especially because you'd assume Somalis who are aware of the trends of their conflicts and the groups within it might have learned something along the way. But alas, it seems all it takes is for a black and white narrative for everyone to lose all logic.

 

These mantras of AlShabaab being evil and satanic child killers obscure a more complex issue at here. It can easily be established that this group has played a negative role in Somalia. However to argue that they are the ONLY factor that contributes to instability, conflict, famine etc. is laughable IMO. You don't have to support AlShabaab to acknowledge the negative roleforeign intervention has played in this conflict. You don't have to support AlShabaab to recognize that this type of unnecessary escalation is the exact thing that could serve as a catalyst to unite its divided leadership.

 

I also find it incredibly dishonest for people to pretend their key reasons for supporting it are with regards to civilians well being and what could be done to them by alShabaab. This invasion, if sustained, will do untold damage to areas already under a famine crisis. The only groups who have been operating to provide medical attention among other things will be forced to pull out. This will contribute directly to more deaths than alShabaab could dream of combined. There is a reason MSF the same organization whose workers were kidnapped( supposedly by AS) have completely condemned and disassociated themselves from the invasion. They've stated there is zero info on the identity of the kidnappers and do not agree with this escalation taken on their behalf. They've also added that it will place their doctors under great distress throughout Southern Somalia and will negatively impact civilians. Considering this its quite clear this is politics at play and not humanitarian interest.

 

This is without touching upon the fact, its campaign will likely fail in "defeating" AS. So what exactly is the rationale for supporting this?

I'm not sure why you're getting worked up. This will likely play out as we have already seen - Shabab vacates towns and villages and Kenyans move in. After a sufficient amount of time Kenyans will declare victory and leave. And they won't have accomplished much. I don't forsee a great humanitarian disaster.

 

I can see a rationale for supporting this - that is if you believe that Al-Shabaab is the greatest single obstacle to peace and progress in the south(which it is) and you believe that this invasion will serve to weaken them or destroy them. I just don't believe they will weaken or destroy Shabaab - at best they will give them some karbaash and humiliate them.

 

Additionally, the way Kenya went about this is highly improper and objectionable. However, I can understand the domestic and likely foreign pressure that precipated this invasion.

[The Zack]

Jacpher;752380 wrote:

I opposed the Amxaaro invasion from the get-go and will do the same with the Kenyan invasion. Neither of these countries nor another nation should set a foot in my country. Let me get that out of the way and let me play a little devils advocate here.

 

My friend Zaky, how can you explain opposing Ethiopia which was given the green light and was invited to aid the Somali government at the time to battle with the ICU? I know it was Yeey's government, sponsored and put together by foreign powers but still in paper, Ethiopia was acting on the needs and orders of Somali government, for that matter, in papers, it wasn't a violation of the sovereignty of Somalia. On the other hand, Kenya is clearly breaking/violating our sovereignty and any UN mandate between nations. We know thus far, Somali government said they did not allow or held any talks with Kenyan government to militarily intervene into Somalia. Help me understand how you don't see the war of aggression of Kenya is Somalia as it is? At least the Ethiopian troops had papers backing them, [not that it mattes] but this Kenyan incursion doesn't.

Jacphar, when speaking of international laws, you would've had a point if the blessings of any foreign country intervention didn't exclude what was called the "neighboring countries". Unfortunately it did. The UN/AU/Somali parliament mandates all clearly said no to a neighboring country military involvement and yet Meles went ahead and occupied Xamar illegally. If any thing, it was only the US, for their own interest, that backed that invasion. Taas taas. Putting aside of legal aspects and speaking from our own Somali perspective, do you really believe that Kenya = Ethiopia? Do you sincerely believe that Al-shabaab = ICU? If you answer yes to any of the above two questions, you are either not being sincere or we completely live in two different worlds. To me, Al-shabaab, a foreign (alqaida to be specific) entity, is much worse than several hundred Kenyan army that crossed the so called border. Let's get the emotions out of the way and think broadly for once, alla waddankii la qabsayeey waa wareey can't continue. Al-shabaab and their co-leader, al amerikiyah, have held those parts of Somalia hostages for years now, I say it is time for them to empty the seats even if it takes "Kenyans" to do it. That is my take.

 

Nuune, LOL@holding this against me. Sometimes people have to talk strong and take unpopular positions on things sxbkey. Kenya is doing the right thing by kicking out and weakening the already weak terror group. Down alshabaab, they will leave Jubbooyinka and the entire Somali peninsula. Some at SOL keep saying "we understand alshabaab are the worst of all but we don't want our country invaded by a foreign country", does that statement even make sense? If you really believe that Shabaab are keeping the country backwards, support anybody, specially if it is not Ethiopia, that is kicking them out. Shabaab are the biggest of all evils. Talo ma keeno talo kastana diido meel ma gaadho..there you go, my own maahmaah. This is what I see in the Jubooyinka in the next several months: Kenya kicks out the shabaab, Azania takes it over, people of the motherland live in peaceful towns again. Al-shabaab have been kicked out from Xamar, the largest city in the nation, how can they not be kicked out these smaller towns like Af madoow? They have no place to hide, they will be heading to Yemen once they are defeated and they get tired of the hit and run attacks.

 

My only concern is..the Somali people are yet to unite over any thing and the clan war might continue. That is something nobody can do crap about but the Somalis themselves.

 

P.s. Nuune, you claim that Kenya is an enemy of Somalia based on few personal experiences. The average Masai or Kikuyu can hate Somalis as much as they want but the Kenyan government is a great friend. The largest refugee camp in the entire universe is located in Dhadhaab and guess who the refugees are? Somalis. Some will say Dhadhaab is a Somali town and we have every right to be there, let's be real to ourselves, Kenya controls there today and it is Kenya who OK's the stay of those people. Kenya also house hundreds of thousands of Somalis in its beautiful little London, Nairobi, and an enemy would do that? Please don't come back with the crap "ayagaa faaaido ugu jirtaa ganacsiga".. how about we head to Zimbabwe maybe we will have better luck there or even South Africa LOL. Again, this is not to legalize the Kenyan incursion, this is to point out that Kenya aint the enemy you accused them of.