Islamic Speakers

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Castro:

quote:Originally posted by Socod_badne:

How many sects and schools of thoughts are in Islam? Innumerable. Exactly! That proves my point.

I don't think it does good SB. It only proves that there are many sects and schools of thought in Islam.

 

Castro, my original arguement was when you go to learn Islam from any erudite muslim regardless of his educational background, status or reputation within the Islamic community, you are getting a fallible man's understanding of Islam. Not unquestionably what Allah wanted of you. Of course, I understand this doesn't 'prove' that particular learned muslim you went to learn from got it wrong. However, the simple undeniable fact that there are other erudite muslims of equal if not higher status, all offering you variagated understandings of Islam all the while citing you as their source the Quran and Hadeeths does dampen, to put it midly, any confidence regarding the accuracy and even sometimes the objectivity of what they present to you as Allah's commands.

 

With that backdrop, what better way can one show the unreliability of what is propagated by certain schools/sects of Islam than to point out the comical fact that they all say different things about the same subject? That is reason I cited all the myriad understandings of Islam by various sects and sub-sects as 'prove' with the caveat it's not 'prove' in the traditional sense of the word.

 

Your analogy with Profs teaching physics and calculus is incongruent. There is no room for interpretation in physics and mathematics. When working with them we HAVE a set of unbiased guidlines/rules to work with. Mathematics has its own rules (logic), science has to comply with invariable natural laws. No serious scientist or mathematician would contemplate any ideas that don't comply with established universal guidelines for each discipline. Same is not interpreting Islam. Objective criteria is absent, whatever exists is subjective and carries prejudices.

 

 

Saaxib I don't know how much Arabic you know but as a fluent reader and writer of the language, I assure you the Quran is no layman's book.

 

 

I don't speak arabic (I can read ok but don't understand too well). But linguistic difficulties are altogether different kettle of fish, wouldn't you think? Unintelligible or difficult language/s can be overcome by translation. Unarguably some of the original information will be lost in the process. I can live with that, confident in the knowledge that it is far less biased. I can verify this myself by comparing different translations. Matter of fact is the sharpest differences are between those considered experts in arabic, not your average muslim!

 

 

It is true that there are many schools of thoughts and opinions but it's never on anything but peripheral and minor issues.

 

 

Castro, I hope you reflect on what you said above. Your judgement, that the differences are 'minor', is highly subjective to say the least and prejudiced if one was to be harsh. What unbiased guidelines (meaning from Allah!) did you use to render the extant differences as minor and not major? Some sects go to extreme lengths in distinguishing themselves from mainstream Islamic thinking. At times shedding blood to preserve it or even laying down their lifes for it.

[Castro]

SB, saaxib, are you basically telling me you have a better chance of understanding the actual message from God yourself rather than from someone who studies the Quran, Sunnah and Fiqh as a lifetime vocation because then you'd be learning their biased understanding of Islam? So basically your understanding would be unbiased, and by implication, the actual message itself and not some interpretation of it. Pardon my obtuse questions but it seems as though you'd join one of the "schools of thoughts" you mentioned and your understanding would be no better than say a caalim with many decades of study. Am I close to understanding your stance? I seem to have misconstrued your earlier statements.

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Castro:

SB, saaxib, are you basically telling me you have a better chance of understanding the actual message from God yourself rather than from someone who studies the Quran, Sunnah and Fiqh as a lifetime vocation because then you'd be learning their biased understanding of Islam?

Not entirely accurate re-sketching. I said learning Islam from any learned muslim is tantamount to worshiping a man's understanding of Islam. Obviously everyone's reading of Islam will equally be less than perfect. That would include me as well. But at least I'll be worshiping what I gleaned from original sources than what someone said to me.

[STOIC]

SB, I did not get the detail of the relationship between learning the religion by ones self and learning from a learned person. I do understand that every learned religious person has a tendency towards individual interpretation, but how will we quench the thirst for knowledge if we never had someone to show us the way to understand the depth (I could be accused here for asking the obvious )-In the light of differing framework of thinking capacity?

 

 

PS My Favorite speaker in that List is Mukhtar Maghroui, I have attended few of his lectures.

[Castro]

SB, I hear ya atheer. Yours is like if I'm gonna be wrong, I might as well have only myself to blame, right? But I, Castro, hate to be wrong and to minimize that, I'd expand my sources rather than reduce them. But these are personal preferences and quarelling over them is futile. It has been my experience that the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.

 

You said,

 

I said learning Islam from any learned muslim is tantamount to worshiping a man's understanding of Islam.

Tantamount? As in equivalent? How could that be saaxib? No one is worshipping a caalim no matter how good he or she is. Period. Worship is for the almighty and neither his messenger (scw) nor his message (the Quran) can be worshipped, let alone a caalim. I hope that's fairly clear for we're not speaking of worship here but acquiring knowledge and the means with which we can do so. You say first hand is good, I don't disagree. It's a monumental task, however, and in the process, you yourself might become a caalim. Some say we need learned men, I don't disagree with that either. It reduces the monumental task to a manageable one for the ordinary Muslim.

[Mr.Faarax]

No one is worshipping a caalim no matter how good he or she is. Period. Worship is for the almighty and neither his messenger (scw) nor his message (the Quran) can be worshipped, let alone a caalim. I hope that's fairly clear for we're not speaking of worship here but acquiring knowledge and the means with which we can do so.

 

This is amazing' i am agreeing with fitnell castro :eek:

[Castro]

^ And your point is ...?

[Khayr]

Castro,

 

Now defending the ULAMA?

 

Ohhh, the Irony... :rolleyes:

 

In anycase, ALL IS POSSIBLE with Allah and this is proof.

[Castro]

^ I'm sorry but my comprehension abilities are not so great as to understand the "irony" you speak of. Won't you enlighten me?

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Castro:

SB, I hear ya atheer. Yours is like if I'm gonna be wrong, I might as well have only myself to blame, right?

 

You got that right spot on.

 

 

But

I

, Castro, hate to be wrong and to minimize that, I'd expand my sources rather than reduce them.

 

 

I don't object to seeking clarifications from recognised erudite muslims. Neither did I intend to portray this subject as a case of the blind leading the blind. No question, some learned muslims possess a far greater and factual knowledge of Islam than say your average muslim like myself.

 

But what I'm against is this notion that Wadaads are, prima facie, right in their interpretation of Islam. I think you'd agree it's prevalent conviction among muslims. Wadaads/Imaams are not only revered but considered near saints. To me that is a bit unsettling because we have NO WAY of verifying if what they propagate is what was really intended by Allah. We have established, I'm assuming since you haven't disagreed with me thus far, that any learned muslim's reading of Islam CAN be wrong so why give him benefit of the doubt? Why not be skeptical, inquisitive... look for answers not only from Caalims but also from the fruits of your labour?

 

 

 

But these are personal preferences and quarelling over them is futile.

 

I agree it really comes down to personal preference.

 

 

As in equivalent? How could that be saaxib? No one is worshipping a caalim no matter how good he or she is. Period.

 

By worship I meant worshiping what the caalim said. Not worship him as a person per se (although some muslims go very close to doing just that!). If what you worship is attained from a caalim then it follows that the caalim is indispensable middle-man between Allah and you. I don't know what you'd call such person.

[Rahima]

Digaale and Khayr,

 

To attack a Muslim who is actually doing good is unislamic. You both know and acknowledge that what Castro has said is correct, that he is doing good, something worthwhile and in accordance with Islam, so why the need to harp on about past grievances?

 

This attitude developing on SOL where even the good of others is somehow belittled because of past events is getting ridiculous. It needs to stop, especially as it applied to our religion.

 

It is our responsibility as Muslims to line up with our fellow brethren in good.

[Castro]

Rahima, what is keeping you from visiting SOL? You've abondoned your post. Are you not a moderator still?

 

Digaale and Khayr are romantic revolutionaries, just like me. I chastise them enough myself so their xagxagasho is perfectly within my limits of tolerance.

 

It's good to see you post. I'm well on my way to having nine (9) million posts by the end of the year.

[Baashi]

Back to the topic.

 

Have I seen any of these Islamic speakers live?

 

No. I come to know Dr. Jamal Badawi through Islamicity site.

[juba]

SOCODE BADNA i think ur just arguing for arguings sake! Since you seem to be a self-taught man im assuming you didn't go to school? I know the thought of biased "fallible" teachers is terrifying :rolleyes:

[Khayr]

Salamun caliyka

 

Originally posted by Rahima:

Digaale and Khayr,

 

To attack a Muslim who is actually doing good is unislamic. You both know and acknowledge that what Castro has said is correct, that he is doing good, something worthwhile and in accordance with Islam, so why the need to harp on about past grievances?

 

This attitude developing on SOL where even the good of others is somehow belittled because of past events is getting ridiculous. It needs to stop, especially as it applied to our religion.

 

It is our responsibility as Muslims to line up with our fellow brethren in good.

I agree

 

and I wasn't trying to knock the brother...infact, Alhamdulillah, he had some good 'pro-ulama' points.

 

Anyways, you are right and inshallah, I will keep it in mind in the near futre.

 

Fi Amanillah