Faroole’s Nuanced Somalia

[Thankful]

Which never happened, I wonder why?

 

Look you said your regional government never supporters terrorists. I agree there is no proof. However if one simple searches all the area's of East Africa. Why has your enclave produced some significant terrorist leader?

[Carafaat]

Thankful, Xaaji Xunjuf,

Dont fall for the trap. I was just profing abtigiis wrong. How his arguments against federalism, Faroole or Puntland is flaud.

 

Abtigiis wants to convince us that some Somali's are more dedicated to Somalinimo, are less clanish and fight for it (centrist, himself incl), others a less dedicated to somalinimo, clan focussed and sometimes obstruct it (Puntlanders, federalist) and others show complete lack of it and are die hard clannist (Somalilanders cq secessionist).

 

While in fact, his own idea's about a centrist goverment and against federalism is very much driven by clan.

Only diffrence between himself and other who admit what their interest are(federalism, indepedance) is that

others atleast admit what their interest is and dont hide behind Somalinimo.

[Che -Guevara]

Gheelle.T;746017 wrote:

Che, Soomaalidu mana kala maaranto mana isdayso. Just look at this very site and how it feels like home. Marka secession iyo maxaa 4 darbi ii soo arkay boowe.

loool@isdayso...you mean XX and his minions waa laga nasa lahaa hadii truly la kala maarmin.

[Abtigiis]

Gheelle.T;746003 wrote:

What you're accusing him of is actually what the whole state and the majority of its inhabitants stand for. Federalism, Political fight wit the TFG when feel left out, and etc..

If this is true, and I await Xinnfanin's confirmation, - if the whole of the puntlanders support Faroole's hawkish posturing againt the TFG and his 'we will go it alone' rethoric, then I have to concede Carafaat's accusations against me are valid and legitimate.

 

However, this thread is about Faroole and secession, not about apportioning blame for the collapse of the Somali State. I was of the opinion Punlanders are incurably fixated with taking state power at all costs, but are fully behind the blue flag and Somalia's territorial integrity. When the discussion turns to the latter (who was responsible for the demise of Somalia), it will be hard to find anyone to spare. Indeed, Puntlanders were the first to fire the bullet of treason from Ethiopia, a tactic latter copied by SNM to a devastating finale. But, General Aideed and the horde of anarchists he led take a big share of the instability.The Anarachists in South and Central are the ones who sired the most disgraceful of traitors and killers. Mohamed Dheere, Ali Gheedi, Indhacadde, Abdi Qaybiid, Suudi Yalaxow,Osman Atto are not from Garowe or Hargeysa.

 

Everyone took part in taking the life out of the Somai State, including the dictator who morphed into a clan shell when his power came under threat. Even my Tolkay who always had the role of a footnote in the political goings of Somalia were not outdone in claiming the maimimg of Somalia. Colonel Ahmed Omer Jess and his big-footed militias are responsible for one of the clearest cases of clan cleansing in Kismayo, where they killed the who is who of a clan that has equal rights as they do in the town. This is well before the Azania professor dreamed in broad daylight about a tribal homeland, where he will be a dark king.

 

This is not about that. And we certainly don't get much benefit from seizing ourselves with matters of who killed who in a context no one will look whiter than the other. We, however, should focus on what can unite us and reflect on the potential we have as a nation to come out of the shame we are in. That requires a serious introspection. Let us view ourselves as one sinned nation than focus on who sinned us and who we sinned against. One million has died in Rwanda's genocide and the answer isn't secession. If it doesn't make sense in Rwanda, why in Somalia with no hard-feelings towards one another as is the case in Rwanda.

[Carafaat]

Abtigiis;746066 wrote:

This is not about that. And we certainly don't get much benefit from seizing ourselves with matters of who killed who in a context no one will look whiter than the other. We, however, should focus on what can unite us and reflect on the potential we have as a nation to come out of the shame we are in. That requires a serious introspection. Let us view ourselves as one sinned nation than focus on who we sinned us and who we sinned against. One million has died in Rwanda's genocide and

the answer isn't secession.

If it doesn't make sense in Rwanda, why in Somalia with no hard-feelings towards one another as is the case in Rwanda.

Abtigiis, What are your objections against 'secession'? and what would be your ideal answer in terms of the ideal governing model for the greater Horn of Africa or Somali region?

[Abtigiis]

Somaliweyn!!

[Carafaat]

Care to explain how your dreamed Somaliweyn will look like in terms of governance and structure?

 

Or you dont think this matters as long its wrapped with the blue flag?

[Abtigiis]

Carafaat,

 

I am sure you know vision comes first. Once the goal is set, the strategies will have to be developed, and structures are the tools used to do the activities critical for the implementation of the laid strategies. This is the theory. For now, I am discussing the vision. It need not be achieved at a go. The strategy is to bring Somalia back (which is why bringing somaliland back to the fold is so crucial to the realisation of the vision). And then the rest will be explored. It need not mean launching another regional war, but I am convinced it can be achieved through political and diplomatic means if credible Somalia comes back. And this may not be in my life time.

[Gheelle.T]

Abtigis, PL is part of the mess that we Somalis are in today and it will be part of the solution tomorrow. I am sure you are aware of that little fact. What I haven't seen from you yet, is any evidence where PL or its leaders have ever call for Secession. Unless you are equating the political hand twisting to a call for secession. Awoowe, the blue flag flies high and proud in the land of the bunt, you at least embrace that.

 

By the way, if you read what Carafat has written on the other page, it actually makes your case against Sl much more solid and will vindicate you. He argued that PL did harm other Somalis and its people indeed took part in the chaos, and that SL stayed away from civil war in the south, yet the latter is the only one that wants to secede.

[Abtigiis]

Gheele, your acrobatics is noted. Which means you didn't say that SL and PL are doing the same thing in the first posts. And that is why I am kinder to the PL. Arm-twisting is fair and I have no problem with it. It may be just that for many Punties, but I was character-analyzing Faroole and it is my take that with sufficient level of desperation, he is capable of declarig secession. Of course, that doesn't mean people in PL will follow him. I have listened to his speechs and I see a man who values clan more than the nation.

[Carafaat]

Abtigiis,

 

a long time ago there was a man in Europe who had a envisioned of a greater, stronger and unified European State. One that is lead by the proletariat and creates order where there is only division and chaos created by the small minded capitalist and elite, who's interest its to keep the proletariat divided and locked in small weak States.

 

This was man called Adolf Hilter and his envisioned a State called the third reich that would last for more then a 1000 years. Unfortuantly Hitler and his viosined triggered the 2nd World War. And as you know he lost the war and all the small states he united fell apart in even more smaller European States.

 

One would think that the vision of a greater Europen States would end there with the Second World War. As the opponents of the third Reich won the War.In contrary, immediatly after the 2nd World War six of those small European States that were led by small minded capitalist elite came together and created the European Coal and Steel Community(ECSC). The ECSC was the first organisation to be based on the principles of supranationalism.

 

The ECSC was first proposed by French foreign minister Robert Schuman on 9 May 1950 as a way to prevent further war between France and Germany. He declared his aim was to "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible." The means to do so, Europe's first supranational community, was formally established by the Treaty of Paris (1951), signed not only by France and West Germany, but also by Italy and the three Benelux states: Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands. Between these states the ECSC would create a common market for coal and steel. The ECSC was governed by a "High Authority", checked by bodies representing governments, MPs and an independent judiciary.

 

The ECSC grew out to become what we today now as the European Union, an economic and political union of 27 member states. The EU operates through a hybrid system of supranational independent institutions and intergovernmentally made decisions negotiated by the member states. Important institutions of the EU include the European Commission, the Council of the European Union, the European Council, the Court of Justice of the European Union, and the European Central Bank. The European Parliament is elected every five years by EU citizens.

 

The EU has developed a single market and system of laws which apply in all member states. Within the Schengen Area (which includes EU and non-EU states) passport controls have been abolished. EU policies aim to ensure the free movement of people, goods, services, and capital, enacts legislation in justice and home affairs, humand and equal rights, common policies on trade, labour, agriculture, fisheries, regional development, education, etc. A monetary union, the eurozone. Through the Common Foreign and Security Policy the EU has developed a role in external relations and defence. Permanent diplomatic missions have been established around the world and the EU is represented at the United Nations, the WTO, the G8 and the G-20. The EU runs militairy missions(outside Nato) in many countries. The EU(and not NATO) runs the international maritime mission in the Somali Waters.

 

And to give you an idea how supranational and unified the EU is, over 90% of the laws and regulations in the member states comes from the EU and not from the own national goverment.

 

So, my point is. It starts with developing a vision, but there are many ways to getting to your vision. Hitler was a visionary, who was convinced of his path and the third reich. Never would anyone back then have imagined that after the second World War, Hitlers envisioned supranational, greater, stronger, unified and proletarian State would become reality. But it did, only though a diffrent path, structure and strategy.

[xiinfaniin]

Abtigiis;746066 wrote:

If this is true, and I await Xinnfanin's confirmation, - if the whole of the puntlanders support Faroole's hawkish posturing againt the TFG and his 'we will go it alone' rethoric, then I have to concede Carafaat's accusations against me are valid and legitimate.

 

However, this thread is about Faroole and secession, not about apportioning blame for the collapse of the Somali State. I was of the opinion Punlanders are incurably fixated with taking state power at all costs, but are fully behind the blue flag and Somalia's territorial integrity. When the discussion turns to the latter (who was responsible for the demise of Somalia), it will be hard to find anyone to spare. Indeed, Puntlanders were the first to fire the bullet of treason from Ethiopia, a tactic latter copied by SNM to a devastating finale. But, General Aideed and the horde of anarchists he led take a big share of the instability.The Anarachists in South and Central are the ones who sired the most disgraceful of traitors and killers. Mohamed Dheere, Ali Gheedi, Indhacadde, Abdi Qaybiid, Suudi Yalaxow,Osman Atto are not from Garowe or Hargeysa.

 

Everyone took part in taking the life out of the Somai State, including the dictator who morphed into a clan shell when his power came under threat. Even my Tolkay who always had the role of a footnote in the political goings of Somalia were not outdone in claiming the maimimg of Somalia. Colonel Ahmed Omer Jess and his big-footed militias are responsible for one of the clearest cases of clan cleansing in Kismayo, where they killed the who is who of a clan that has equal rights as they do in the town. This is well before the Azania professor dreamed in broad daylight about a tribal homeland, where he will be a dark king.

 

This is not about that. And we certainly don't get much benefit from seizing ourselves with matters of who killed who in a context no one will look whiter than the other. We, however, should focus on what can unite us and reflect on the potential we have as a nation to come out of the shame we are in. That requires a serious introspection. Let us view ourselves as one sinned nation than focus on who sinned us and who we sinned against. One million has died in Rwanda's genocide and the answer isn't secession. If it doesn't make sense in Rwanda, why in Somalia with no hard-feelings towards one another as is the case in Rwanda.

 

Well said. Maanta dhan hadal lama saaarnaan karo, but this narrative waa hadal sax ah

[Carafaat]

Abtigiis;746157 wrote:

Gheele, your acrobatics is noted. Which means you didn't say that SL and PL are doing the same thing in the first posts. And that is why I am kinder to the PL. Arm-twisting is fair and I have no problem with it. It may be just that for many Punties, but I was character-analyzing Faroole and it is my take that with sufficient level of desperation, he is capable of declarig secession. Of course, that doesn't mean people in PL will follow him.

I have listened to his speechs and I see a man who values clan more than the nation

.

Most Somali's value clan more then the Nation State. Even you abtigiis, when you centrist and anti-federal ideas. That is no shame.

 

Once we accept that and stop this hide and seek behind the blue flag. We can look for a away to bring State, Clan and Interest in enlighment with eachother.

[Gheelle.T]

Abtigiis, I thought you will expand the scope of the discussion beyond Farole and what he might have said or done. what will chasing a character going to bring to the table awoowe. He came to the seen unnoticed and will soon go. Whether he will be seen in the political theater of future Somalia, will just be a wild guess. Marka haddii sheekaduba Farole ku wareegaalanayso, dee Carry on!

[xiinfaniin]

^^Waryaa Gheelle Prof. Abtigiis hawl culus buu ku jiraa, nimankan wareeray buu tacliiminayaa.

 

As for Puntland the good Professor rightly characterized Faroole's confusion about what kind of Somalia he wants to shape. A one with weak and feuding states vulnerable for foreign mingling and intervention? Or a cohesive state whose political framework is reflective of its geographical and demographic realities?

 

What is Federalism in relation to Somalia is the question and I am afraid few including Faroole can anwser that question objectively.