Complex Islamic response to evolution emerges

[Garnaqsi]

Mohammed;741046 wrote:

I'm pretty sure that the earth circles the sun was a theory until it was proven to be a fact.

I'm afraid you haven't answered my question. I asked you to name a theory that was proven which then consequently became a fact. I didn't ask you to give an outline of a mundane common guess which then was supported. The point behind my question is that theories don't get proven and become facts. Einstein's theory of relativity passed all the scientific tests with high precision, yet it still has the label theory. Same goes for all theories of science. From the theory of thermodynamics in physics and cell theory of biology to germ theory of disease and transition state theory in chemistry. Can you tell me why it happens that all these still have the label theory, despite having tons of evidence met on their behalf?

The point is, the Quran states we did not evolve.

That has nothing to do whatsoever to do with the validity of the theory of evolution. Rejecting the theory of evolution because it does not accord with your religious world view is lame. What religious texts have to say has no bearing whatsoever on the validity of any theory of science. Do you have non-religious (or better yet scientific) reasons for your belief in the exception of man from evolution?

Let's then say I did believe in that, were do we stop? The Quran states Jesus was born to a virgin mother. You know that's impossible. In order for one to be pregnant, you need semen, right? Furthermore the Quran states two unseen angels are on your shoulder. Where' the scientific evidence for that? So an so forth.

Interesting! Am I right in assuming that you accepted all of these without ever being provided with evidence (or else some compelling logical argument) to say that they actually occurred? If so, then why is it hard to accept a scientific theory with logical foundation and which has tons of evidence provided on its behalf? Moreover, in what logic does one dismiss that which has solid logical foundation and evidence in favour of one that has neither?

There's enough in the Quran to suggest that it's the word of god. I don't believe such a book was written by a 7th century illiterate arab. There's no mistakes, no inconsistencies and no contradictions.

How is that enough to suggest that it was the work of God? It's disappointing that your belief in the Koran's lack of mistakes, inconsistencies and contradictions would be enough for you to declare it the work of God. It also appears you are trying to find within the Koran an evidence to support its own validity. Isn't that like a man being his own witness in a court of law?

 

If the Quran however said the earth is flat or the sun evolved around the earth, then you'd have a point. However it doesn't. It simply states that Adam and Eve were created separately and weren't part of the evolution process. If science suggest man is 100,000 years old, we accept.

I didn't make any claims; I simply asked questions. I don't understand how the validity of my questions should depend on whether or not the Koran made wild claims about the solar system. As I've said above, what the Koran says has no bearing on whether or not theory of evolution is valid. You seem to be picking up the parts of evolution which conform with your religious beliefs and discarding those which don't. That's a logical fallacy called 'cherry picking'.

[Garnaqsi]

Boondheere;741163 wrote:

Actually quran says earth is shaped like Egg. i think flat earth in the quran means that humans are to able to walk on the earth whit out falling down from it . therefore for us the earth is flat but if you look distance it look like Egg.

 

Quran 79:30

 

Wal'arda ba'da dhalika dahaha

He(allah) made the earth egg-shaped

I would like to see a commentary of the Koran, dating back at least 600 years, that actually says the verse means the Earth is shaped like an egg. Most prominent commentaries of the Koran were written long before that, so I'm guessing you will have no problem finding such a thing. Hint: you will find none. Almost all of them will say that it means the Earth is extended, which is the more natural/unforced translation. Moreover, even most modern translators of the Koran will agree with me here. I'm thinking of Shakir, Pickthall, Yusuf Ali to name but few. Not to mention that the Earth isn't really shaped like an egg even from distance.

[Garnaqsi]

I posted this earlier, but it didn't appear somehow -- here we go again:

Mohammed;741046 wrote:

I'm pretty sure that the earth circles the sun was a theory until it was proven to be a fact.

I'm afraid you haven't answered my question. I asked you to name a theory that was proven which then consequently became a fact. I didn't ask you to give an outline of a mundane common guess which then was supported. The point behind my question is that theories don't get proven and become facts. Einstein's theory of relativity passed all the scientific tests with high precision, yet it still has the label theory. Same goes for all theories of science. From the theory of thermodynamics in physics and cell theory of biology to germ theory of disease and transition state theory in chemistry. Can you tell me why it happens that all these still have the label theory, despite having tons of evidence met on their behalf?

The point is, the Quran states we did not evolve.

That has nothing to do whatsoever to do with the validity of the theory of evolution. Rejecting the theory of evolution because it does not accord with your religious world view is lame. What religious texts have to say has no bearing whatsoever on the validity of any theory of science. Do you have non-religious (or better yet scientific) reasons for your belief in the exception of man from evolution?

Let's then say I did believe in that, were do we stop? The Quran states Jesus was born to a virgin mother. You know that's impossible. In order for one to be pregnant, you need semen, right? Furthermore the Quran states two unseen angels are on your shoulder. Where' the scientific evidence for that? So an so forth.

Interesting! Am I right in assuming that you accepted all of these without ever being provided with evidence (or else some compelling logical argument) to say that they actually occurred? If so, then why is it hard to accept a scientific theory with logical foundation and which has tons of evidence provided on its behalf? Moreover, in what logic does one dismiss that which has solid logical foundation and evidence in favour of one that has neither?

There's enough in the Quran to suggest that it's the word of god. I don't believe such a book was written by a 7th century illiterate arab. There's no mistakes, no inconsistencies and no contradictions.

How is that enough to suggest that it was the work of God? It's disappointing that your belief in the Koran's lack of mistakes, inconsistencies and contradictions would be enough for you to declare it the work of God. It also appears you are trying to find within the Koran an evidence to support its own validity. Isn't that like a man being his own witness in a court of law?

 

If the Quran however said the earth is flat or the sun evolved around the earth, then you'd have a point. However it doesn't. It simply states that Adam and Eve were created separately and weren't part of the evolution process. If science suggest man is 100,000 years old, we accept.

I didn't make any claims; I simply asked questions. I don't understand how the validity of my questions should depend on whether or not the Koran made wild claims about the solar system. As I've said above, what the Koran says has no bearing on whether or not theory of evolution is valid. You seem to be picking up the parts of evolution which conform with your religious beliefs and discarding those which don't. That's a logical fallacy called 'cherry picking'.

[Boondheere]

Garnaqsi;741206 wrote:

I would like to see a commentary of the Koran, dating back at least 600 years, that actually says the verse means the Earth is shaped like an egg. Most prominent commentaries of the Koran were written long before that, so I'm guessing you will have no problem finding such a thing. Hint: you will find none. Almost all of them will say that it means the Earth is extended, which is the more natural/unforced translation. Moreover, even most modern translators of the Koran will agree with me here. I'm thinking of Shakir, Pickthall, Yusuf Ali to name but few. Not to mention that the Earth isn't really shaped like an egg even from distance.

 

brother. iam not sure about if the earlier translations or commentary of the Koranas dating back 600 years, if it said that verse of quran means "earth is shaped like an egg". but according modern translations the arabic word

dahaha( daxaahaa)

it means egg shaped.

 

modern tafsiir of quran is best tafsiir so far. therefore we as muslims should believe our quran told us 1400 years ago that our planet is shaped like ostrich Egg.

 

 

its true that chicken eggs does not look like the earth globe but Ostrich Egg it actually look like the planet

[Garnaqsi]

Boondheere;741252 wrote:

...

It seems you didn't get the gist of what I was saying. Forming a religious position (or providing a translation/interpretation yielding as such) to claim a credit for something after it's been established by some other means is a form of bias. It even has a name - it's called 'hindsight bias'. You can't tweak the Koran's translations like that just to make it match with science and then claim it as a miracle of sorts that indicates the Koran's validity as divine work.

[burahadeer]

Religion is a belief, can't compete with science.Are there verses that fortold the aeroplane,train,telephone,internet,lightbulb,T.v,aspirin etc.When you sneeze where you run to?Neither koran nor bible can come up with 2+2=4. You'r entitled to your belief but science stands.Vagueness doesn't work in today's world.It's show me..how to put a crash victim back together! how to disassemble the spongy web-like brain & pick a tumor, how to fix a radio or even artificial insemination.What religion saying, is take it or leave it & in islam don't question or u definitely end up in hell which itself needs to be questioned..What & where is hell..or does anyone know we might already seen hell on earth & there is no more to it in after life.Everything is questionable,and as long as religion stands in the way little could be accomplished.The west have put bible in it's place centuries ago & that's why they dominate the world with science.Evolution might be fact or fake but certainly compatible with current technology & worth contemplating.

I'm inclined believing......

[Mohammed]

burahadeer;741313 wrote:

Religion is a belief, can't compete with science.Are there verses that fortold the aeroplane,train,telephone,internet,lightbulb,T.v,aspirin etc.When you sneeze where you run to?Neither koran nor bible can come up with 2+2=4. You'r entitled to your belief but science stands.Vagueness doesn't work in today's world.It's show me..how to put a crash victim back together! how to disassemble the spongy web-like brain & pick a tumor, how to fix a radio or even artificial insemination.What religion saying, is take it or leave it & in islam don't question or u definitely end up in hell which itself needs to be questioned..What & where is hell..or does anyone know we might already seen hell on earth & there is no more to it in after life.Everything is questionable,and as long as religion stands in the way little could be accomplished.The west have put bible in it's place centuries ago & that's why they dominate the world with science.Evolution might be fact or fake but certainly compatible with current technology & worth contemplating.

I'm inclined believing......

Your post is hilarious. Your understanding of the Quran/Islam is quite amusing.

 

The Quran is a book of guidance. It's not a history or future book. Why stop there, why not tell us of future inventions we have yet. You're whole is just silly.

 

Go look up the Islamic Golden Age and the contribution Muslims made. Back then in the West, if you said the the Earth was the centre of the Universe, you'd have been killed. Science was not allowed to flourish, but it was flourising in the Islamic empires. I doubt the "West" would be in the position it is now if the Islamic Golden Age didn't come about.

 

In Islam you do question. Go on youtube and you consistently have Q & A sessions right after every lecture. There are a variety of Islamic Question and Answer websites and there are forums where. The prophet all the time was questions, where do you think we got all the hadiths from? His wife Aisha would always ask him a variety of questions. People would come up to the prophet and question him or ask him question.

 

How do you think people convert? They ask, question and look at the evidence and come to the conclusion that the Quran is the word of God. Of course there are people who will leave Islam. That will always happen. The story of Ibliss is one we should learn from. Ibliss rejected Allah's (SWT) command to bow down to Adam, despite clearly knowing that God existed. Why? Because of arrogance. The fact that there are people who understand Islam clearly and in-depth and know the whole Quran, but still reject it. Doesn't shake my faith at all.

 

Now you and others might now accept Islam, but if you know and understand the clear message of Islam and reject it and you die in that state, then what reason do you have on the day of judgement when you're asked why you rejected your lord or didn't believe in him? Is your answer going to be "You didn't provide enough evidence". Really? After the final prophet for the whole of mankind was sent down, with a book to guide you, with no errors, contradictions or inconsistencies?

 

Do you think the concept "nothingness after death" scares me? That there could be nothing? Of course not. But I believe there is a god and the Quran was not a book written by an illeterate desert man, especially since it was produced orally. Meaning there was no drafts. Once a surah came out of the prophets mouth, his companions memorized it immediately.

[genius pauper.]

burahadeer;741313 wrote:

Religion is a belief, can't compete with science.Are there verses that fortold the aeroplane,train,telephone,internet,lightbulb,T.v,aspirin etc.When you sneeze where you run to?Neither koran nor bible can come up with 2+2=4. You'r entitled to your belief but science stands.Vagueness doesn't work in today's world.It's show me..how to put a crash victim back together! how to disassemble the spongy web-like brain & pick a tumor, how to fix a radio or even artificial insemination

before any of this things mentioned here came into being, it must have been an idea deep in the brain of a human. Then i wonder, was the brain not created, or evolution thought of it and created it????

 

science is not an independent tool, but brain of men thinks it out. And mark you, the brain is limited, as it doesn't know everything.

 

Why does the eye see, where does the wind originate?? Why is water made up of h and o??? Just few kulahaa

[burahadeer]

koran & bible r just faith books.Only science run this world...hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.It has become customary to deny what eye can see.Look at the technology infront of your eyes be it medicine or engineering.I just don't understand how you circumvent that.Nice to write whole pages but reality stands.

[genius pauper.]

burahadeer;741692 wrote:

koran & bible r just faith books.Only science run this world...hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.It has become customary to deny what eye can see.Look at the technology infront of your eyes be it medicine or engineering.I just don't understand how you circumvent that.Nice to write whole pages but reality stands.

qur'an states the origin of the brain, which is the source of all this technology you are talking about. is that not reality??

at least science does't state many things which are real, hence its imperfection.

 

as faeces are a by product of man, so does all technology. be it in any field

 

p.s. if you factor out the brain from the equation of science, what will you be remained with????

[burahadeer]

easy way out!!!!! that same brain(scientists) stated that man came out of evolutionary process.Man existed before islam, christianity or judaism.Quran says man is made of sand & evolution says life (first plant)started at the bottom of ocean(sand & water).May be some coexistance needed here,but personally I will stick with science when I look the world around me & see what science has accomplished which is tangible & could be seen with naked eye rather than a book written 1000s of yrs ago with no formulas....just that's word of god,period.I have to go along with my conscious.

[Mohammed]

burahadeer;741800 wrote:

easy way out!!!!! that same brain(scientists) stated that man came out of evolutionary process.Man existed before islam, christianity or judaism.Quran says man is made of sand & evolution says life (first plant)started at the bottom of ocean(sand & water).May be some coexistance needed here,but personally I will stick with science when I look the world around me & see what science has accomplished which is tangible & could be seen with naked eye rather than a book written 1000s of yrs ago with no formulas....just that's word of god,period.I have to go along with my conscious.

You seem a bit simple and you've clearly not studied Islam.

 

It's not an easy way out.

 

For some reason, you assume Islam and Science are mutually exclusive. Like two different components that aren't compatible. When it's not the case. Muslims don't reject science, it encourages. There are millions of Muslims who study science and are Muslims. They use science to study the world around them and use Islam as their guidance to life as how to live the way God wants us to live and what to do and what not to do.

 

Speaking of Formula, go look up the Islamic Golden Age and the Muslim Mathematicians who contributed greatly to mathematics today.

 

Anyway, good luck in your life. When you die, you'll have to explain yourself.

[burahadeer]

Mohammed;741811 wrote:

You seem a bit simple and you've clearly not studied Islam.

 

It's not an easy way out.

 

For some reason, you assume Islam and Science are mutually exclusive. Like two different components that aren't compatible. When it's not the case. Muslims don't reject science, it encourages. There are millions of Muslims who study science and are Muslims. They use science to study the world around them and use Islam as their guidance to life as how to live the way God wants us to live and what to do and what not to do.

 

Speaking of Formula, go look up the Islamic Golden Age and the Muslim Mathematicians who contributed greatly to mathematics today.

 

Anyway, good luck in your life. When you die, you'll have to explain yourself.

I neva said muslims reject science! Muslim mathematicians.LOL....is like saying pakistani atom a muslim atom.They could be muslims & invent something; why the word muslim has to follow.Can we say the same about telephone inventor ..a christian inventor.That's the problem with some muslims always defending religion regardless ,from some unseen,unknown aliens about to destroy!and am talking quran has no formulas...please read carefully before u respond!

We r talking here about evolution & the way each sees..It has nothing to do with religion bashing...I guess you'r the one showing immaturity here.

and when I die, you don't know if I have to answer to anyone.....let me know what they ask you!!

[genius pauper.]

burahadeer;741800 wrote:

easy way out!!!!! that same brain(scientists) stated that man came out of evolutionary process.Man existed before islam, christianity or judaism.Quran says man is made of sand & evolution says life (first plant)started at the bottom of ocean(sand & water)

where did this first plant came from?

burahadeer;741800 wrote:

).May be some coexistance needed here,

Do you seem to reap some understanding here?

 

burahadeer;741800 wrote:

but personally I will stick with science when I look the world around me & see what science has accomplished which is tangible & could be seen with naked eye

science is a function of the thinking of man, by itself its nothing.

[burahadeer]

genius pauper.;741817 wrote:

where did this first plant came from?

 

Do you seem to reap some understanding here?

 

 

science is a function of the thinking of man, by itself its nothing.

you are not getting!! are you? It says life (man) evolved from plant to fish to ape to man....It says evolution here!

Therefore science is the function of man that evolved scientifically.....if you saying that evolution exist & is done,too, by God, then we are closer.