Somalilander or Not Somalilander? Part 2

[Liibaan]

OdaySomali;722551 wrote:

In your moment of attempted defence mode, you have inadvertedly confirmed that you're a tribalist, which was clear for everyone to see anyway. You didn't deny being a qabilist but accused me of hypocracy - that I shouldn't call you out on your qabiilist tendencies.

 

If you want to know my opinion, click

here

.

 

I will remind you: "Dugsi ma leh Qabyaalad waxay dumiso mooyaanee". Cheers.

 

Mr. Odey Qabiilist (O somali), you admitted directly and indirectly many times your support for qabyaalad and cllan faction, and your qabiilist tendencies are obvious to all, take your own advice and stop the hypocrisy, and why don't you remind yourself "Dugsi ma leh Qabyaalad waxay dumiso mooyaanee"

 

Stop being clan secessionist, and stop advocating for snm/Somaliland clan-state and clan secession. There is no better alternative than United Somalia

[Liibaan]

If you want to know my opinion

 

 

Quote Originally Posted by 'Liibaan'

 

Zack walaal Yes, SSC people and Somaliland people can have peace, it is very possible if both parties are willing to coexist peacefully and compromise. If our brothers from Northwest [somaliland] want to join United Somalia, they are more than welcome, and if they want to leave the Somalia, we wish them good luck. There is no need for wars and force.

 

Every Somali region want freedom, self-determination, justice, etc We all want same thing, we just need to respect each other, peacefully coexist, and if we cannot unite and share one-entity, we can go our separate ways and each region will have their own mini-state. All Somalis regions should work together for the common good, whether we share one-entity or not, we are still neighbors and brothers.

 

 

---------------------------------------------

 

 

Just to clarify, so you would [only] accept either a united Somalia or clan states? (and nothing else)

I want United Somalia/Somaliweyn that includes Djibouti, Western Somalia/onlf, and NFD, but to be realistic if Somali people want to have 30 mini-clan states like SNM/Somaliland, Puntland, Galmudug, SSC, Maakhir, Azania, etc There is nothing one can do, the problem is our Somali people don’t want to be united and don’t trust each other, and force and wars will not work either.

 

If Northwest/Togdheer people don’t want to part of Somalia, those of us from Somalia, we should accept the wish of Northwest/Togdheer people. And if Awdal, Maakhir and SSC people don’t to be part of SNM/Somaliland, those from Northwest/Togdheer should accept the wish of Awdal, Maakhir, and SSC people. Respect is a 2-way road

 

Many Somali unionists argue that Northwest/Togdheer Somalis have legitimate grievances and their needs should be addressed within United Somalia, but still Somali unity is sacred and there is no need for clan secession, and Somaliland is an internal Somalia Issue. Similarly, Secessionists argue that they have right to claim all the territories of Former British Colony, while sometimes they concede that Awdal, Maakhir, and SSC people have legitimate grievances, they insist the unity of the former colony is sacred, and the wishes of Awdal, Maakhir, and SSC people is not important.

 

If Awdal, Maakhir, SSC, and Northwest/Togdheer cannot share one entity, then it time to part ways, and Awdal, Makhir, SSC and Northwest/Togdheer, every region should go their own separate ways.

 

 

After 20 years of civil/clan wars, Now is the time for bold moves toward peace, and all Somali groups should be ready for peace, talks, compromise, and major concessions. We need to start a new page/chapter. We cannot be like Israelis & Palestinians. We Somali people share one religion, one ethnicity, one language, one culture, etc. We should be able to find peaceful solutions for our problems.

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

The vast majority of SSC people want to be part United Somalia, it means SSC people want to share a country with their fellow Somalis Puntland, Maakhir, Awdal, Galmudug, Hiraan, Northwest/Togdheer, Gedo, Juba , etc

 

 

 

 

 

You need to understand that SSC is one region in Somalia , like Bari, Nugaal, Mudug, Hiiraan, Awdal, Jube, etc All Somali people collectively need to answer, where is Somalia? Not just SSC people .

 

SSC people believe Somalia as their country, they recognize Sheikh Shariif as the president of Somalia, they willing to wait Central Government of Somalia, temporarily SSC people want to have their own SSC State like Puntland, Galmudug, Hiraan, Awdal, Azania.

 

 

 

Secessionists like Siilaanyo, XX, JB are saying SSC People don’t exist, while at the same time they don’t want to be part of Somalia, they are hypocrites. I don’t want SSC Region to be part of SNM/ Somaliland faction, because Warlord Siilaanyo and his fans JB and XX hate and deny the existence of SSC people, and they believe lies like SNM clan militia defeated of SSC people in 1991. When there was no war or battle that took place in North Somalia in 1991.

 

If Somaliland claim all the territories of the former british somali colony, then there is no such thing as Somaliland, because the former colony is dead and irrelevant today. If Hargeisa,Burco, and Barbara want to separate from Somalia, they can do without bringing back the old colonial maps.

 

Somalilanders/ secessionists should understand If Somalia is divisible , So is the territories of former British Somali colony. Forcing SSC people to be part of Somaliland's Colonial map never worked in the past, and it will never work in the future. In 20th century hundred thousands of SSC people lost their lives fighting for their independence and their freedom, and they rejected the British occupation and the unjust British colonial map.

 

Likewise, people of Western Somalia, NFD, Palestine, Kashmiir, South Sudan, Kurdistan, East Timor, all of them don't want to accept colonial maps No want to be occupied and oppressed including Northwest/Togdheer region .

 

 

Every Somali region will be a player Awdal, Northwest/ Togdheer [somaliland], Puntland, SSC, Maakhir , Galmudug, Hiiraan, Bay and Bakool. Somaliland is like any other Somali region.

 

 

You don’t have to assume or put words in my mouth. I have big problem with Warlord Siilaanyo, his Somaliland clan militia, because they are waging aggressive clan wars on SSC people. But that doesn’t mean I hate Northwest/Togdheer [somaliland] people or region. Secessionists have problem with Somalia and Governments of Somalia, does that mean they hate people of Somalia?

 

There is a war and a military conflict between Northwest/Togdheer and SSC Regions, but I don’t think people hate each other.

 

 

 

NO, Subhana Allah thats haraam and unjust, because I fear Allah and the day of judgment, I will forgive and I wish for Northwest/Somaliland, what I wish for my home region SSC, and every other Somali region Puntland ,Maakhir Hiiraan ,Awdal, Galmudug. Etc.

 

And I would ensure Northwest/SL region get a fair share, like Puntland, SSC, Galmudug, Awdal, Maakhir, Hiiraan, and Gedo

 

Being marginalized or occupied is terrible like the situation in Iraq, Palestine, Kashmiir, or Western Somali/Onlf and SSC Region to a lesser degree, so I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

 

 

 

YES, after all that happened, My neighbours (SL), are still my fellow Somali brothers like my Puntland brothers, my maakhir brothers, my Galmudug brothers, my Gedo brothers, My Awdal brothers, my Western Somalia/Onlf brothers, my hiiraan brothers, my banadir brothers, my Djibouti brothers, my NFD brothers.

 

Even if Hargeisa & Burco separate from Somalia, and SSC Region remain as part of United Somalia, we are all still neighbours, and brothers, both sides need to coexist peacefully within one entity or not.

 

In reality Somali problems can be easily solved if Somalis are willing to respect each other, and ready to compromise. I believe all Somali people can coexist peacefully within ONE entity Somalia/Somaliweyn. If one region like Somaliland/Northwest want to separate from Somalia and leave the union, that is fine, their wish should be respected . But also I expect also my neighbours (Somaliland) to respect the wishes of SSC people to have their own SSC State of Somalia and remain part of United Somalia.

 

Unity is always better than division, United we stand, and divided we fall. But If Somali people cannot share one-entity and country SOMALIA/Somaliweyn, and somalis want to have 20 or 30 mini countries, no problem. Therefore, we should respect if Hergaisa, Burca, and Barbara want to have a country called “Somaliland”. Similarly, we should respect if Las Anod, Buhoodle, Taleex, Yaqoori, Boocame, widhwidh, and Xudun want to have a country called “SSC”. We should respect if Borame and Zeylac want to have a country called “Awdal” , and also we respect if Las Qorey, Badhan, and Dhahar want to have a country called Maakhir.

 

I think I am reasonable and fair person. I believe the Golden Rule “One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself”, and in Islam we have a hadith “None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.”—An-Nawawi's Forty Hadith 13 (p. 56)

Excellent points bro. and can add the quote from the great philosopher Immanuel Kant, my signature!

[OdaySomali]

hahahaha, you might as well have posted your original comment

 

I repeat:

 

In your moment of attempted defence mode, you have inadvertedly confirmed that you're a tribalist, which was clear for everyone to see anyway. You didn't deny being a qabilist but accused me of 'hypocracy - that I shouldn't call you out on your qabiilist tendencies.

If you want to know my opinion, click here .

 

I will remind you: "Dugsi ma leh Qabyaalad waxay dumiso mooyaanee". Cheers.

[Liibaan]

I repeat:

 

Odey Qabiilist (O somali), you admitted directly and indirectly many times your support for qabyaalad and SL/snm clan faction, and your qabiilist tendencies are obvious to all, take your own advice and stop the hypocrisy, and why don't you remind yourself "Dugsi ma leh Qabyaalad waxay dumiso mooyaanee"

 

You are fraud as other members of the forum suggested [som@li, and Taleexi] , you are clan-secessionist, who is advocating for qabyaalad [snm/SL clan state]. Remember, there is no better alternative than United Somalia

[OdaySomali]

I see you have brought some quotes of you previous "work". This particular comment (above) is not what my comment was regard - otherwise I would have made that point when you originally posted this comment you are quoting now.

 

Anyhow, as for my views:

 

 

Ideally

, I would like a united, strong, affluent and

non-tribal Somalia

.

This, for me, is not abstract but with purpose. In other words - I don't see this as an end in itself but a means to an end.

So what is the end to which we are/should be stiving

?

Do we want a united Somalia just for the sake of having a united Somalia or does it serve a pupose? Does Somalilanders want independence just for the sake of disunity/as an end in itself or does it serve a purpose/is it a means to an end? In the wider context of the regional and international political arena, how realistic is this? Lastly, are there other ways to achieve the end to which we are/should be striving? If there are those who want independence how and when can we re-unite the country and if this is the most strategical and effective way to achieve the, as yet undefined, end to which we are/should be striving? I will answer these questions.

 

So what are the end to which we [somalis] should be aspiring ? I think peace, sovereignty and development for all Somali people in the Somali Peninsula should be something to aspire for. To achieve this, if we are talking practically, the various Somali camps are going to have to reconcile and understand each others objectives and interests; this, at some point, is going to require that someone somwhere makes some concessions/sacrifice. I also think that the different camps should be judged by the results that their camp has produced (for its people but also how it has affected others).

 

Division, also, is also not an end in itself but [iMO] is a by-product of the current political realities on the ground. I was listening to the BBC the other day when that SNM guy was asked what ku kalifay Somaliland to declare independence and he said: when the south formed their own government; they also said, when asked why they are not negotiating with the south, who should we negotiate with, who is the government (TFG, al-shabaab, Puntland, Galmudug...etc)? Somaliland and Puntland have become stronger and stronger the longer the south has been in turmoil and has been finding it difficult to form a government (20 years). Quite frankly, those two entities are more of a government to their peoples than Somalia proper has had in 20 years and this does give them some bargaining power and support of their people. Some are trying to bring back Somaliland[ers] by force, name-calling and attempts to humiliate them which in reality is only pushing them farther away; instead of a stick, try using a carrot, see what happes. If you have no carrots then you are only left with a stick, which is unlikely to work.

A saying goes along the lines of miro geed ku aal, ha u qubin kuwa guntiga kuugu xidhan.

But in this case, there are not even any miro on the tree but instead pills of death and destruction.

So if me not part-taking in name-calling somaliland means some of you label me as "secessionist who wants to divide Somalia into mini-clan states.", so be it.

If Somaliland and Puntland, in contrast to the south, were not peaceful with relative law and order; in particular if Somaliland was not peaceful, stable, democratic and not shown its long term (20 years) political resillience with successive governments, I would not be inclined to think that perhaps they should have their independence if better anables their governemnt. If today the Somalis there [of various clans] are not living in peace and their children are going to schools I would not be inclided to think that perhaps their government should be independent if it better enables their government. Whether Somaliland is independent or not, should be determined by a referendum and it is upto Somalia whether we present a viable alternative.

 

Personally, I have lost confidence in both the TFG and al-shabaab and quite frankly the former is only marginally better than the latter. Every time there was a new 'government', a new speaker, a new PM, a new or a new movement there would be a glimmer of hope of a restoration of law and order. When in 2006 the ICU made major gains against lawlessness and and later its head became the President, there suddenly was not a glimmer but a ray of hope. This hope, every time, failed to materialise into results and thus I have adopted a wait and see strategy and don't even bother talking about that political mess. Personally, the way the situation is currently, if I was from Somaliland, I would also opt for independence.

 

I see Somaliland like a smaller version and case study of how Somalia will one day (inshallah) be (in peace and recovering). If they are able to unite all the people living in Somaliland, they will achieve great things, together. If they cannot for some reason unite these people, it will, at least for me, be the final nail in the coffin for Somalis as it will show that no matter how far you go, even after twenty years of apparent progress, Somalia is Somalia; divided, qabilistic and stuck. It will be one more thing destroyed by qabyaalad. Soo... a case study to watch, for Somalia but also for Somali galbeed.

 

One thing i fear from what is going on up north is the tribalising of the politics and people and the division following on from that. If you push and push and push people away from each other on the basis of clan e.g. "awdal" "sscc" "makhir" and your "somaliland" interpretation", it is simply not going to work in the long term in terms of achieving any progress for anyone.

If one perpetually links political differences to clan differences you are going to make a whole lot of people oppose each other than would otherwise be the case. For example if you represent everyone that is not SSC, AWDal and makhir as anti union though some of them are pro union then you are alienating them. Vice versa if Somalilanders paint everyone that is, for example "SSC", as anti union then they are alienating some of them

.

 

IN any case, pro-unionist camps should not use clan to divide people to hope to later unite them as in the process they will create real and lasting hate that will have side-effects and will shape the future. Otherwise in future, when things get hard, people will turn to what they know best and that is clan.The trend/strategy by unionists of division by clan, is wholly a wrong one; that I must stress; dividing by clan to try to re-unite later, is not basis to build a country [somalia].

 

The various Somali camps will have to reconcile their diverging abjectives/views and as such, someone, somewhere, at some point, is going to have to makes some concessions/sacrifice and that since 'unity' is not an end in its self but a means to an end, the different camps should be judged by the results that their camp has produced (for its people but also how it has affected others). IMO Somaliland's achievements speak volumes about which camp should concede, that is if Somaliland can get all the people living within the borders it claims on board (which it may over the long term).

 

On the question of SSC. Of course, Somaliland is not going to be peaceful or successful if it tries to force people that are against it to be part of it (imo)

.

On the other hand, Somalia is not going to be peaceful if it tries to force Somalilanders who are against a 'union'. This should be resolved by way of a referendum.

Like liibaan said, respect is a two way street. I wouldn't want Somalis to die and fight wars over anything, whether independence or something else.

 

Where is Somalia at now. Let's not kid ourselves by saying it is united becuase Somaliland is currently not recognised. If Somalia was peaceful, had a government etc. there would be no reason for Somaliland to want to be independence..

[OdaySomali]

It seems SNM is stuck on your tongue so I have a question for you: how is SSC different from SNM and how do you reconcile you hate for SNM, supposedly becuass it is a one-clan militia, with you love for SSC ? Personally I see no difference between the two.

 

Explain something else to me as well. I said that I don't particularly disagree with Somaliland independence as long as they continue their achiavement and SSC is not forced. This you trasnlated into support for SNM/Somaliland on-clan faction. Then you say yourself: "we should respect if Hergaisa, Burca, and Barbara want to have a country called “Somaliland” ". Are you then, by the same logic, not supportint SNM/Somaliland one-clan militia? [and thereby a qabiilist whilst supporting SSC is not at all qabiilist]. Oh, I remember, you never denied being qabiilist.

[Liibaan]

Taleexi: "Som@li iyo Liibaanow: Markaan OdaySomali u jawaabayey iftataaxan baan ku furtay ee bal ila yare eega

 

Mudane OdaySomali salaan sare baan hawada kuu soo marinayaa ugu horayn!. I wonder though; why is my sixth sense telling me that you are a clown of SOLer?, why am I thinking you are promoting secession more over unity?, why am I thinking you are an underground ambassador for the secessionists' cause. Halkaa markaan kaftanka ku waabiyo, dhambaalkaagii wuxuu i soo gaadhay anoo bed qaba dabadeed si wacan ban u akhristay balse waa aan saluugay . How dared I do such a crime you may ask my friend?"

 

Som@li:

''OdeySomali is a die hard secessionists, I could spot him miles aways, Taleexi almost believed this a genuine with unbiased views.

 

Liibaan, Don't entertain "these silly questions, from OdaySomali and rest, unless they are dumb, they clearly know and aware what is going on in these regions,

it is a simple choice, accept justice, or not.

"

[Liibaan]

I already posted my opinion:

 

Zack walaal Yes, SSC people and Somaliland people can have peace, it is very possible if both parties are willing to coexist peacefully and compromise. If our brothers from Northwest [somaliland] want to join United Somalia, they are more than welcome, and if they want to leave the Somalia, we wish them good luck. There is no need for wars and force.

 

Every Somali region want freedom, self-determination, justice, etc We all want same thing, we just need to respect each other, peacefully coexist, and if we cannot unite and share one-entity, we can go our separate ways and each region will have their own mini-state. All Somalis regions should work together for the common good, whether we share one-entity or not, we are still neighbors and brothers.

 

After 20 years of civil/clan wars, Now is the time for bold moves toward peace, and all Somali groups should be ready for peace, talks, compromise, and major concessions. We need to start a new page/chapter. We cannot be like Israelis & Palestinians. We Somali people share one religion, one ethnicity, one language, one culture, etc. We should be able to find peaceful solutions for our problems.

 

In reality Somali problems can be easily solved if Somalis are willing to respect each other, and ready to compromise. I believe all Somali people can coexist peacefully within ONE entity Somalia/Somaliweyn. If one region like Somaliland/Northwest want to separate from Somalia and leave the union, that is fine, their wish should be respected . But also I expect also my neighbours (Somaliland) to respect the wishes of SSC people to have their own SSC State of Somalia and remain part of United Somalia.

 

Unity is always better than division, United we stand, and divided we fall. But If Somali people cannot share one-entity and country SOMALIA/Somaliweyn, and somalis want to have 20 or 30 mini countries, no problem. Therefore, we should respect if Hergaisa, Burca, and Barbara want to have a country called “Somaliland”. Similarly, we should respect if Las Anod, Buhoodle, Taleex, Yaqoori, Boocame, widhwidh, and Xudun want to have a country called “SSC”. We should respect if Borame and Zeylac want to have a country called “Awdal” , and also we respect if Las Qorey, Badhan, and Dhahar want to have a country called Maakhir.

 

I think I am reasonable and fair person. I believe the Golden Rule “One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself”, and in Islam we have a hadith “None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.”—An-Nawawi's Forty Hadith 13 (p. 56)

[OdaySomali]

loool I see your avoiding the questions. Good night sxb.

[The Zack]

Folks, when the discussion reaches to the point where you start name-calling each other, it is better off if you just drop it.

 

Overall, Aside from being a bit emotional, I think the folks from SSC are winning this debate. This win is based on this one main point:

 

If Somaliland is seceding from Somalia because of their choice, SSC is seceding from Somaliland because of their choice. In my point of view, that is a strong point. The secession sympathizers should address that point to move this debate to the next level.

 

NGONGE stated that there is no point to discuss this now because the rest of Somalia is in chaos and there is no place for Somaliland to return to. Well, what he forgot is that there won't be a recognition until the issue of SSC is settled. Maybe good NGONGE doesn't care much about the recognition as Rush Limbaugh (oops, Africa Own) accuses him of.

[Alla-Maxaan-Kulayaabay]

Somalilanders waa kuwan, ragga waxaa lakala bartaa mararkaanoo kale, not in chat rooms, listen to Muj Ibrahim Meygaag Samatar addressing SNA POWs:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZypP6FaDpGY&feature=related

[Jacaylbaro]

Can u imagine Zack oo dowladda SL iyo SSC u gar naqaya ??

[The Zack]

Alla-Maxaan-Kulayaabay;722610 wrote:

Somalilanders waa kuwan, ragga waxaa lakala bartaa mararkaanoo kale, not in chat rooms, listen to Muj Ibrahim Meygaag Samatar addressing SNA POWs:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZypP6FaDpGY&feature=related

Video-gu wuxuu leeyahay: Ururka dhaqdhaqaaqa Somaliyeed, nothing about Somaliland. The speaker is talking about Somalia .

 

Jaceylbaro, It aint my fault that you didn't have the guts to defend your points. Hargeisa has to deal with multiple problems before the world can consider recognizing it. Ignoring those problems will keep you in the status quo. I know the South is in a bad position, but I say it is time for Somaliland to reconsider its positions for the better of its people.

[Jacaylbaro]

You will never stand in the Somaliland's side dee ...... markaa I'm not surprised.

 

We never ignore problems ,, ,and as i said the SSC issue is internal and is being addressed as such.

[The Zack]

Jacaylbaro;722619 wrote:

You will never stand in the Somaliland's side dee ...... .

That is not true, I will support Somaliland when it is the right thing to do so. If Somaliland recognizes that it is part of federal Somalia, you will see me by their side. If a fair referendum is held and the secession wins, I will support Somaliland. Last but not least, if gobloladan: Waqooyi Galbeed, half of Sanaag, and some Togdheer towns decide to leave the rest of Somalia, I will respect their position. You see where I am going with this?

 

 

I don't think it is fair to force SSC and Awdal to secede when majority of those people are unionists. Xaqqa aad raadin walaalkaa ha u diidin, fair?