Somalilander or Not Somalilander? Part 2

[Ibtisam]

Taleexi;722342 wrote:

Ibti: my dear, I know I'm an ignorant figure but I believe I deserve to shape my destiny like anybody else of course we don't see eye-to-eye one this. In the case of "

an alternative be agreed

", waad iga qoslisay and I needed one after a long day. Admit or not admit your clan needs other Somali clans as much as my clan needs them. No more, no less. Don't portray that your people encapsulated and are self-sufficient when it comes to the interdependence of the said communities. Finally, I've invested a lot of effort promoting peace in Somalia and I shall continue but sorry I cannot accept the gross injustices that you are promoting. Oh, Somaliland claiming its dependence from WHO, last time I checked they are the aggressors but you are picturing them as if they are the victims ... cajaa'ib -- Allow sahal umuuraha.

Not self-sufficient if nothing else they need the business and money/ exchange of the people in those region, this is above all the other things.

 

When you finish laughing etc, put aside the paranoia and read my post again. Somaliland says they've had their victim years, now some SSC say they are having their victim years, do we keep recycling the victim or find an alternative agreement. You find it funny and want to continue circulating the victim to a different clan or re-rotate. I find that finding a new solution is a necessary step to progress, and it is not a laughing matter (certainly SSC is not laughing, nor was Somaliland laughing before), and anyone who cares for Somalis should not find it funny. :cool: Go figure.

[Saalax]

Freedom;722313 wrote:

The are several factors i have learned reading this posts. One that you unionst do expect Somalialnd right to be apart from Somalia only if regions within it that supporty unionst view are left alone. I for one dont want no group that does not want to be part of Somaliland to be forced, the only reason i feel we waste money are resources is becuase of the "British Somaliland borders" which we need to be independent. The sad fact is even if we let Parts of Sool and Sang go i doubt the TFG would say (Ok Somaliland is Independent). Do you lots who are suppoters of SSC really think if Somaliland let these parts go that individuals and leadership in the TFG or Puntland will say ok you are your own nation. How many times have i heard the shouts of (territorial integrity) be shouted out by people of the south, people of Puntland, people of SSC. If it was that simple a long time ago we would have said "Ok you dont want to be with us goodbye" by Unionst use the line of PROTECTING SOMALIA TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY in stopping Somaliland from being free. So i say to you DIE HARD UNIONST, DROP THE SOMALI TERRITORAL INTEGRITY TALK, GO OUT AND VOICE TO THE TFG, PUNTLAND AND THE WORLD THAT AREAS WITH FULL SUPPORT OF INDPENDENCE IN SOMALILAND SHOULD BE LET GO. But for some odd reason i doubt that will happen from you guys.

 

 

Excellent points Freedom. As i have said before "SSC" can't expect to Somaliland to leave their terrorities that easily when they are supporting TFG and other Somalia governments which are against the existence of Somaliland.

[OdaySomali]

'Liibaan';722304 wrote:

You right Som@li, I shouldn't entertain Silly Questions, Odey Somali is a secessionist who wants to divide Somalia into mini-clan states.

I ask few questions that you are finding difficult to answer and you resort to calling me a "secessionist who wants to divide Somalia into mini-clan states." Let's not be childish now yaa Liibaan. I asked the questions so that I can get a better understanding of your viewpoint. As for mini-caln states, you were the one who said he wouldn't mind 20-30 somali clan countries.

 

'Liibaan';722304 wrote:

Some are not interested in peace, equality, or justice, and they are hypocrites who want a self-determination and freedom for themselves, and at same time they want to attack, invade, occupy, and oppress others, but it is impossible.

If this was directed at me then i'm intrigued how you derived this from the two questions that I asked you. Cajiib.

[Som@li]

OdaySomali;722301 wrote:

loool @ silly questions. What's silly about my question haha

Bro, I first believe you fake, duplicate, but if you are for real, and you don't understand the basic issue, then you should not be talking part in this discussion, and asking too nonsense questions, You have being putting out your view, or declaring the some groups are wrong, that is too early, Go, and do a proper research , and understand the situation first, But stop DOQON waraysiga, iyo AFKA kala qaad an ilkaa haaga tiriyo.

[Som@li]

This discussion is heading no where, Allow Sahal amuuraha, Waxba kama soo indha cada!

 

As I said in my earlier discussion, the secessionists are far gone, it has been 20 years, and those born in 1991 are now 20, with some much emotions, and thru mass propaganda, false history, misinformation,There is no turning point.They are afraid and see an invisible enemy, which if they let go of those regions they illegitimately claim, that is coming back to bite them.

 

Can the secessionists not do it alone without those regions?

 

Anigu ka baxay!

[Jacaylbaro]

*Ibtisam;722334 wrote:

Okay you cannot let the past go, then creating a past for these people distinct from yours will haunt you later, agreed?

Of course it will be a past for them but as I said it will end with a mutual agreement. Such fightings happened in Burco, Hargeisa and other towns as well but with such negotiations it ended peacefully. This will take the same path.

 

 

Forget Somalia as whole now; the SSC, I mean sit with the people not the oldies or the sell outs, sit with the people, all their representatives and hear them out, hearing out the few that come with you is not enough, hearing out the ones who oppose you is difficult but needs to be done. YOu are just chasing them around haada.

What do u mean by the people ?? ,,,, Somaliland was created by the people including those in Sool as they were the main actors. As i said, there are diplomatic talks going on right now and I don't wana say more about it. Not at the moment.

 

 

 

Okay progress of things are in the pipe line hence why the fighting stopped I get that, but can a long term solution be found rather then cease fires that randomly pick off where they left off after a while. Can something other than appealing to their hungry /bribe with money/ positions be done?? Otherwise tomorrow when the position shifts or the money is increased by someone else, they will buy from else where. Can you marginalized the money motivated ones and deal with peace/ progress motivated ones?

and who talked about money and bribing except Liibaan and Co. ?? ..... can a whole community in Widhwidh be bribed ??? ,,, it is a cover of the failure of their bloodshed project.

 

This is part of the success of the diplomatic talking I was just talking about ...... Winning the hearts & minds of the people as u said is the main important at the moment. The issue of the secession is something that can also be discussed.

[OdaySomali]

I will lay out my viewpoint for all to see. Hopefully this will rid the annoying taunts by those who resort to taunts when they cannot argue their points across.

 

Ideally, I would like a united, strong, affluent and non-tribal Somalia. This, for me, is not abstract but with purpose. In other words - I don't see this as an end in itself but a means to an end. So what is the end to which we are/should be stiving? Do we want a united Somalia just for the sake of having a united Somalia or does it serve a pupose? Does Somalilanders want independence just for the sake of disunity/as an end in itself or does it serve a purpose/is it a means to an end? In the wider context of the regional and international political arena, how realistic is this? Lastly, are there other ways to achieve the end to which we are/should be striving? If there are those who want independence how and when can we re-unite the country and if this is the most strategical and effective way to achieve the, as yet undefined, end to which we are/should be striving? I will answer these questions.

 

First of all I want to remind you all "Dugsi ma leh Qabyaalad waxay dumiso mooyaanee" ----- "dadka kama yaraateene, ways dabarjaraysaane".

 

So what are the end to which we [somalis] should be aspiring ? I think peace, sovereignty and development for all Somali people in the Somali Peninsula should be something to aspire for. To achieve this, if we are talking practically, the various Somali camps are going to have to reconcile and understand each others objectives and interests; this, at some point, is going to require that someone somwhere makes some concessions/sacrifice. I also think that the different camps should be judged by the results that their camp has produced (for its people but also how it has affected others).

 

Division, also, is also not an end in itself but [iMO] is a by-product of the current political realities on the ground. I was listening to the BBC the other day when that SNM guy was asked what ku kalifay Somaliland to declare independence and he said: when the south formed their own government; they also said, when asked why they are not negotiating with the south, who should we negotiate with, who is the government (TFG, al-shabaab, Puntland, Galmudug...etc)? Somaliland and Puntland have become stronger and stronger the longer the south has been in turmoil and has been finding it difficult to form a government (20 years). Quite frankly, those two entities are more of a government to their peoples than Somalia proper has had in 20 years and this does give them some bargaining power and support of their people. Some are trying to bring back Somaliland[ers] by force, name-calling and attempts to humiliate them which in reality is only pushing them farther away; instead of a stick, try using a carrot, see what happes. If you have no carrots then you are only left with a stick, which is unlikely to work. A saying goes along the lines of miro geed ku aal, ha u qubin kuwa guntiga kuugu xidhan. But in this case, there are not even any miro on the tree but instead pills of death and destruction. So if me not part-taking in name-calling somaliland means some of you label me as "secessionist who wants to divide Somalia into mini-clan states.", so be it. If Somaliland and Puntland, in contrast to the south, were not peaceful with relative law and order; in particular if Somaliland was not peaceful, stable, democratic and not shown its long term (20 years) political resillience with successive governments, I would not be inclined to think that perhaps they should have their independence if better anables their governemnt. If today the Somalis there [of various clans] are not living in peace and their children are going to schools I would not be inclided to think that perhaps their government should be independent if it better enables their government. Whether Somaliland is independent or not, should be determined by a referendum and it is upto Somalia whether we present a viable alternative.

 

Personally, I have lost confidence in both the TFG and al-shabaab and quite frankly the former is only marginally better than the latter. Every time there was a new 'government', a new speaker, a new PM, a new or a new movement there would be a glimmer of hope of a restoration of law and order. When in 2006 the ICU made major gains against lawlessness and and later its head became the President, there suddenly was not a glimmer but a ray of hope. This hope, every time, failed to materialise into results and thus I have adopted a wait and see strategy and don't even bother talking about that political mess. Personally, the way the situation is currently, if I was from Somaliland, I would also opt for independence.

 

I see Somaliland like a smaller version and case study of how Somalia will one day (inshallah) be (in peace and recovering). If they are able to unite all the people living in Somaliland, they will achieve great things, together. If they cannot for some reason unite these people, it will, at least for me, be the final nail in the coffin for Somalis as it will show that no matter how far you go, even after twenty years of apparent progress, Somalia is Somalia; divided, qabilistic and stuck. It will be one more thing destroyed by qabyaalad. Soo... a case study to watch, for Somalia but also for Somali galbeed.

 

One thing i fear from what is going on up north is the tribalising of the politics and people and the division following on from that. If you push and push and push people away from each other on the basis of clan e.g. "awdal" "sscc" "makhir" and your "somaliland" interpretation", it is simply not going to work in the long term in terms of achieving any progress for anyone. If one perpetually links political differences to clan differences you are going to make a whole lot of people oppose each other than would otherwise be the case. For example if you represent everyone that is not SSC, AWDal and makhir as anti union though some of them are pro union then you are alienating them. Vice versa if Somalilanders paint everyone that is, for example "SSC", as anti union then they are alienating some of them. IN any case, pro-unionist camps should not use clan to divide people to hope to later unite them as in the process they will create real and lasting hate that will have side-effects and will shape the future. Otherwise in future, when things get hard, people will turn to what they know best and that is clan.The trend/strategy by unionists of division by clan, is wholly a wrong one; that I must stress; dividing by clan to try to re-unite later, is not basis to build a country [somalia].

 

Having witnessed the chaos, war, anarchy and bad governance in Somalia over the past 20+ years

 

The various Somali camps will have to reconcile their diverging abjectives/views and as such, someone, somewhere, at some point, is going to have to makes some concessions/sacrifice and that since 'unity' is not an end in its self but a means to an end, the different camps should be judged by the results that their camp has produced (for its people but also how it has affected others). IMO Somaliland's achievements speak volumes about which camp should concede, that is if Somaliland can get all the people living within the borders it claims on board (which it may over the long term).

 

On the question of SSC. Of course, Somaliland is not going to be peaceful or successful if it tries to force people that are against it to be part of it (imo). On the other hand, Somalia is not going to be peaceful if it tries to force Somalilanders who are against a 'union'. This should be resolved by way of a referendum. Like liibaan said, respect is a two way street. I wouldn't want Somalis to die and fight wars over anything, whether independence or something else.

 

Also Somaliweyn, as a centralised entity governed from Mogadishu is not going to happen anytime soon, but that what I proposed [The United Somali States], could possibly be persued over the long term. Somaliweyn should never have an extremely centralised government structure as that would be its most fatal weakness and, as has happened before, its eventual downfall. In an geographic area as large as Somaliweyn, to control it all from Mogadishu would (a) be inpractical and (b) aliente the locals of the various parts of Somaliweyn. The Somali people have lost in confidence in Mogadishu as a seat of power as we are nearing the next milstone [25 years/ quarter of a century] of choas in mogadishu. It would actually complicate things further if Somaliland tried to get involed in southern politics as it would be 5.5, not 4.5 and thus the more camps there are the more disagreements there will be, the more conflict. IMO, it would also spearhead a new way to achieve Somaliweyn as it would give the [false] idea, at least to Somalia's neighbours, that with the independence of Somaliland, Somaliweyn has received a huge setback when this need not be the case. I propose 'The United Somali States' comprised of Djibouti, ******/Somali Galbeed, Somaliland, Somalia and NFD. Much like the E.U/NATO I propose a strategic and high level co-operation of Somali States where a political, economic and military union/co-operation is undertaken with a joint foreign policy.

 

Where is Somalia at now. Let's not kid ourselves by saying it is united becuase Somaliland is currently not recognised. If Somalia was peaceful, had a government etc. there would be no reason for Somaliland to want to be independence..

[Jacaylbaro]

Dorraad waxaan tabanayiyo, shantaan isla doonayiyo, dareenkii lixdameeyadii, hadduu dayaxoodu dhacay, dammiirkii shalay i baray, inaan labada isku daro, maantana dib u gurasho iyo, Dudada xidho buu i yidhi......... Ali Seenyo

[A_Khadar]

Ibti, habo, with no specific one post from all yours, you tried so hard to be a persuasive and approach to the matter in a respective ways, but failed in many parts by having in one sentense that ssc can't survive without s/l (clan) same as somaliland either yet promoting that saperation from the rest of somalia.. All ssc supporters here are saying to you we (somalis) all need each other from Lawyade to Dhoobley.. So keep the family together. If one is down now, in the case, the south, let us help to get it up.

[AfricaOwn]

A_Khadar;722444 wrote:

Ibti, habo, with no specific one post from all yours, you tired sp hard to be a

persuasive

and approach to matter in a respective ways, but failed in many parts by having in one sentense that ssc can't survive without s/l (clan) same as somaliland either yet promoting that saperation from the rest of somalia.. All ssc supporters here are saying to you we (somalis) all need each other from Lawyade to Dhoobley.. So keep the family together. If one is down now, in the case, the south, let us help to get it up.

Lets see a united ssc group first. Isn't that simple enough? Don't worry about uniting with others yet.

[Taleexi]

AfricaOwn: That is not your business or is it?

[AfricaOwn]

Taleexi;722455 wrote:

AfricaOwn: That is not your business or is it?

Be accountable my dude. Get your people stuff together first. You're not even in a good term with the pirate state when you guys are both supposed to be flying the blue flag and belong to the same clan. Cease all the barking backward debates.

[NGONGE]

*Ibtisam;722078 wrote:

Otherwise the same old guards just hijack the thread and like the other one it just becomes my clan is mighty and will crash your village and you will never leave iyo catch me if you can.

 

P.s. I would've liked to see meeshey isla gaadan North and Sayid, and Ngonge to stop hiding behind the jokes and smiles.

Jokes and smiles are all such a discussion is worth, Ibti. Like The Zack before him, North is trying to close the barn door after the horse has already bolted (as it were). But North should know better. Today, and to praphrase Henley; we are masters of our fate, we are captains of our soul. Greater Somalia offers nothing but empty sentiment and endless conflict. If or when Somalia dangles a tastey carrot our way this discussion might be worthy of serious consideration. As things stand, there is no reason whatsoever for any Slander to worry about or bother with Somalia and the silly notions of unity.

 

Still, since the Somalis insist on arguing over foregone issues, we may as well oblige them and send in a low level representative to argue the case; Xagaa iyo AfricaOwn please.

[Saalax]

AfricaOwn indeed charity starts at home they should unite first before thinking about the idea of uniting the wider somalis.

[AfricaOwn]

NGONGE;722458 wrote:

Still, since the Somalis insist on arguing over foregone issues, we may as well oblige them and send in a low level representative to argue the case; Xagaa iyo AfricaOwn please.

You and Ibti and Norf really hold each other down very well . Relax...Old man. Cut..... tendencies, and hiding behind the sarcasms and the fake smiles.