Xeefow, come in. About unity.

[OdaySomali]

I didn't want to de-rail the thread with my long message so i created this one.

 

Xeefow;720357 wrote:

Unity brings us the blessings of Allah....all Somalis are suffering let them be from North or South....I'm sure you never came to diaspora for the pleasure but for.....safety, education, clean water....wealth....etc. Everybody has to plays its part in unity....or else we will always be in poverty...pain....prison? Think...think...think

Don't get me wrong sxb, unity is not a bad thing and I do hope that Somalis achieve it at some point. It is not a question of if but a question of (a) how and (b) when. It is all about timing. Your comment gives me the idea that you think disunity is causing the problems of the Somali people and that unity would be some sort of panacea. IMO just shouting UNITY! UNITY! UNITY! at every opportunity is not going to achieve anything; as I said, it is about (a) how and (b) when. It is also about understanding the different aims and objectives of various Somali camps (which is something I have been trying to do recently) in order to reach some sort of agreement about the future by reconciling these [sometimes] divergent objectives and interests. It is also important to consider the wider political context/environment in which Somalis find themselves and how this affects their political aims and objectives.

 

Xeefow;720363 wrote:

Other Muslims don't want to divide the country and cause further conflicts....other Muslims are suffering foreign interference....but...if certain people wouldn't had seeked division...there wouldn't had been war in SSC areas...there wouldn't had been border disputes with Puntland...there wouldn't had been Oromo's taking over Hargeisa....there wouldn't had been small children thinking they need VISA to enter their own country...what is soo good about being divided...?

First of all let's not turn to if... if... if...

 

Your talking as if unity is an end in its own right when [at least IMO] it is a means to an end; in any case, this idea of 'unity' is a vaguely defined concept in the current situation of Somali politics.

 

So what are the end to which we [somalis] should be aspiring ? I think peace, sovereignty and development for all Somali people in the Somali Peninsula should be something to aspire for. To achieve this, if we are talking practically, the various Somali camps are going to have to reconcile and understand each others objectives and interests; this, at some point, is going to require that someone somwhere makes some concessions/sacrifice. I also think that the different camps should be judged by the results that their camp has produced (for its people but also how it has affected others).

 

Division, also, is also not an end in itself but [iMO] is a by-product of the current political realities on the ground. The quesion should not be what is good about being divided?" but 'what is causing us to be divided'.

 

First of all we all know the north is peaceful and stable compared to the south. The epicentre of the chaos, lawlessness and war of Somalis is not the north. Obviously the conflict in SSC means a lot to you but is it really any different from Galmudug v.s. Puntland or Atam v.s. Puntland or TFG v.s. Al-shabaab or ASWJ v.s. AL-shabab ? Somalia has been in a stalemate situation precisely because

 

Let's asses Somaliland. IMO there is much to praise about Somaliland and Puntland and I am glad that at least some parts of what was Somalia are at peace and doing well. Indeed Somaliland is quite a unique case in the Somalia political landscape. Though I myself was initially against Somaliland independence, I have recently come to the conclusion that if it manages to be/become (a) peaceful (b) democratic © inclusive of the people that live there (d) proactive in working with/having a good relationship first and foremost with its Somali neighbours and (e) it remains independent i.e. run by its various local people, then at some point it can be re-incorporated into Somali political unity. It is sad though that, (a) there is such disparity between the views/perspectives of those Pro-Somaliland and those anti-Somaliland, (b) the achievements of Somaliland are meaningless to some people © there is still a clan dimention in terms of how people see Somaliland becuase of [myopic clan] nature of the Somali mindset (d) the lack of vision and creativity in terms of political solutions to Somalia's political problems © the failure on the part of Somaliland to educate the masses about its stance vis a vis Somali unity. As for the SSC issue, I'm still confused about why [some] would refuse the opportunity to join the peaceful Somaliland when Somalia has has so little to offer :confused: (though I don have an idea [clan?]). That is, so long as within Somaliland everyone has equal rights, has access to public services etc.

 

IMO, it would also spearhead a new way to achieve Somaliweyn as it would give the [false] idea, at least to Somalia's neighbours, that with the independence of Somaliland, Somaliweyn has received a huge setback when this need not be the case. I propose 'The United Somali States' comprised of Djibouti, ******/Somali Galbeed, Somaliland, Somalia and NFD. Much like the E.U/NATO I propose a strategic and high level co-operation of Somali States where a political, economic and military union/co-operation is undertaken with a joint foreign policy.

 

One of the good things to have come from the fall of Somalia in 1991 is the decentrilisation of the country from a city-state i.e. Mogadishu, to country-wide urbanisation, institution building and economic development which IMO makes Somalia economically and politcally stronger in the long term. The Unites Somali States is the only practical way to achieve Somali unity aka Somaliweyn. Somaliweyn should never have an extremely centralised government structure as that would be its most fatal weakness and, as has happened before, its eventual downfall. In an geographic area as large as Somaliweyn, to control it all from Mogadishu would (a) be inpractical and (b) aliente the locals of the various parts of Somaliweyn. The Somali people have lost in confidence in Mogadishu as a seat of power as we are nearing the next milstone [25 years/ quarter of a century] of choas in mogadishu.

 

For those of you who believe that Somaliweyn in its original form will ever occur, I have to say sorry, but there is no chance in hell. Why? Well here is why:

 

- Djibouti, its people and ruler will never cede its identity as a seperate country

 

- The ******/Somali galbeed. Though this is still firmly under the control of Ethiopia and though it won't be able to gain its independece without external help, I think it is wary, as many others are, of a union with Somalia. Somalia has become like 'the untouchables' of india. The ONLF's exclusion of somalis other than Ogdenis has also limited its abilities for both now and the future; with somalis there is usually only a fine/vague line between one group wanting 'unity' with another and/or one group wanting to dominate another. Part of the issue here is politicians/'states'/groups not wanting a union as such but wanting to dominate other Somalis and unless one genuinely wants equal rights/opporunities/importance for all political camps, 'unity' will not be achieved.

 

- Somaliland and [many of] its people truly believe Somaliland is a seperate country and are extremely partriotic. In terms of governance, public service, accountability and international engagements it has made significant progress. Is it too far gone ? Quite possibly so.

 

- Then we have the NFD. Somalis in kenya have experienced relative success and desite the huge refugee camps of recently displaced people, the long term Somalis there have achieved a level of itegration within Kenya. They hold and have held significant positions within government, business and society; whether it is MP's, ministers or various other positions. Quite simply, Kenya has more to offer them than Somalia. The NFD's [economic, political and military] viability as an independent entity is also questionable. This territory is likely to stay as it is, full of Sonmalis but part of Kenya; though the huge numer os recently arrived Somalis may have an effect on this.

 

- Then there is Somalia itself. The failure of Somalia and its crappy politians + various kinds of extremists needs no elaboration.

[OdaySomali]

The TFG, Alshabaab, ASWJ & a solution to southern problem. I think the TFG should continue its military campaign against Al-shabaab but only as a pressuring tool whilst also vocally advocating for talks. To have Sharia installed is not a bad bad thing per se but it is about how and when, the TFG should actively call for this. All countries of the United Somali States should have sharia law IMO. Alshabaab is abviously too extreme and things like suicide bombings are unjustifyable, a military campaign for implementation of their extreme ideas is IMO also unjustifyable. For Somalia to have sharia law and representative democracy, IMO should not neccesarily be mutually exclusive. The western powers and also local countries in the region would not sit idly by were Al-Sbaaab to try and take over all of Somalia so if AL-shabab really wants for foreigners to leave SOmalia and the stop the potential inflow of more foreigners, Al-shabab should talk with its Somali opposition as they are an excuse for external powers' interference so the if they truly want to help Somali peopl, waa inay is caasilaan as there are a number of ways to achieve ones aims i.e. sharia law, altough Somalis are fond of the fighting way.

 

All these 'states that are being declared, with the exception of Puntland and to a limited extent Galmudug. should be made into macro councils with governers. Puntland needs to clarify its stance on Somalia :confused: and it will require political re-integration with the rest of Somalia.

 

---

 

Somali politics in general is very messed and it can give you a headache just thinking about it all.

 

There are my thoughts. Make of it what you will.

[Mulugbaadh]

OdaySomali;720435 wrote:

IMO just shouting UNITY! UNITY! UNITY! at every opportunity is not going to achieve anything.

It amazes me when people think geographical unity would somehow solve Somalia's problems.

[Xeefow]

Oday Somali,

 

LOL Thanks for your opinion and thoughts...........

 

UNITY?

Some people have different intakes on UNITY........but Somalia today is in shambles due to disunity that happened 20 years ago.....let it be clan disunity in the 90s or ideological disunity in 2000-2010. However....breaking apart the country will cause the biggest bloodbath ever, if Somaliland is recognised! (trust me on that) Somalia is struggling today due to foreign countries powerful interference on Somalia....who is funding Al-Shabaab? Certainly not Somalis....who is causing political leaders to feud....?South Somalia is not lacking clan unity but......it is lacking power.....communication......and clean leaders.....

 

Now to Somaliland or North West Somalia........why would their peace and progress be affected if they stop their independence dream and instead be like Puntland and Galmudug.....why are they fueling oil to the fire?

 

Regarding Djibouti....when they got their independence the Somalis wanted to join Somalia....however the French and Anfar ethnic group.....prevented that to happen.

 

Kilinka 5aad and NFD..........its a dream.......that is less likely to happen.....you know why?.......because Somalia is in flames.........

 

UNITY is indeed MACAAN

[Mulugbaadh]

Xeefow;720458 wrote:

However....breaking apart the country will cause the biggest bloodbath ever,

if

Somaliland is recognised! (trust me on that)

Why should we trust you on that? Provide reasons for this claim, or we shall dismiss it as a baseless speculation!

[OdaySomali]

My first point was that the various Somali camps will have to reconcile their diverging abjectives/views and as such, someone, somewhere, at some point, is going to have to makes some concessions/sacrifice and that since 'unity' is not an end in its self but a means to an end, the different camps should be judged by the results that their camp has produced (for its people but also how it has affected others).

 

IMO Somaliland's achievements speak volumes about which camp should concede, that is if Somaliland can get all the people living within the borders it claims on board (which it may over the long term).

 

My second point was that Somaliweyn, as a centralised entity governed from Mogadishu is not going to happen anytime soon, but that what I proposed [The United Somali States], could possibly be persued over the long term.

[OdaySomali]

Xeefow;720458 wrote:

However....breaking apart the country will cause the biggest bloodbath ever,

if

Somaliland is recognised! (trust me on that) Somalia is struggling today due to foreign countries powerful interference on Somalia....who is funding Al-Shabaab? Certainly not Somalis....who is causing political leaders to feud....?South Somalia is not lacking clan unity but......it is lacking power.....communication......and clean leaders.....

tbh if Somaliland was recgonised, which I don't see happening unless something drastically changes somewhere, the possibility of a huge war there would be minimal, depending on the leadership of Puntland, as in terms of proximity, reach and man/firepower, only Puntland could wage a war on Somaliland. With the current leadership of Puntland [Faroole], I doubt he would attack Somaliland as Faroole cherishes the peace of Puntland and has sought to make peace with Galmudug also. He might intensify support for SSC, without which the SSC wouldn't change from its current position.

 

As for the south, you said this yourelf: "South Somalia is not lacking clan unity but......it is lacking power.....communication......and clean leaders....." I think there are still some huge clan issues, but as I said, we do have crappy politicians.

 

Xeefow;720458 wrote:

Now to Somaliland or North West Somalia........why would their peace and progress be affected if they stop their independence dream and instead be like Puntland and Galmudug.....why are they fueling oil to the fire?

Adding fuel to the fire :confused: Galmudug is weak tbh. Puntland has distanced itself from TFG and has crossed them at every opportunity. It would actually complicate things further if Somaliland tried to get involed in southern politics as it would be 5.5, not 4.5 and thus the more camps there are the more disagreements there will be, the more conflict. In all truth, there is little incentive for them to do so. How could one's peace and progress not be affected by partaking in the merky politics of the deep south.

 

Xeefow;720458 wrote:

Kilinka 5aad and NFD..........its a dream.......that is less likely to happen.....you know why?.......because Somalia is in flames.........

Exactly, "because Somalia is in flames". Take for example Puntland and Somaliland, though they have disagreements and are disunited, they are at peace and the harm from conflict to their people is minimal. Peace first, unity later.

[genius pauper.]

~~~~~@mulu, maba soo dhiganin inaad qof weeydiin karto reason:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Mulugbaadh]

genius pauper.;720524 wrote:

~~~~~@mulu, maba soo dhiganin inaad qof weeydiin karto reason:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

You got me there, I must admit!

[genius pauper.]

~~~~~

[genius pauper.]

be simple.

[Xeefow]

Oday Somali,

 

Lets be simple. Somaliland will always be part of Somalia and should remain that way.

 

Regarding Kilinka 5aad and NFD, you didn't get what I meant.....I said Kilinka 5aad and NFD will not be free from Ethiopia and Kenya due to Somalia being in flame....I never said Kilinka 5aad and NFD will not join Somalia due to Somalia being in flame.....cause Kilinka 5aad and NFD are still controlled by KENYA AND ETHIOPIA and Somalia's turmoil has made it difficult for their freedom.....however.....if Somalia was not in turmoil then.......those areas would been more likely free from KENYA AND ETHIOPIA and afcourse then will they join Somalia. But who is occupying Somaliland? They are part of a nation called Somalia....simple.....really.

[Xaaji Xunjuf]

The Former Somali republic was peaceful for 28 years and Both NFD and Killil 5 were part of the countries they are a member today.

[Leezu]

Well if it really was Somalia vs Ethiopia in 1977-1978 and no other country involved then we would actually atleast see Soomaali Galbeed part of Somalia and Ethiopia would disintegrate due to Somalia making sure of it just like Ethiopia made sure that Somalia is divided now but the difference is that Ethiopia would probably be divided faster with recognition because there was actual genocide, rape and no political power in their different regions and its the same way today but Somalia never had these problems before Siad Barre made the mistake of bombing Burco, Harrgaysa and Berbera and then aswell attacking the Central Somali people which made the only part that wasnt against him, turn against him.

[OdaySomali]

Xeefow;720588 wrote:

Oday Somali,

 

Lets be simple. Somaliland will always be part of Somalia and should remain that way.

 

Regarding Kilinka 5aad and NFD, you didn't get what I meant.....I said Kilinka 5aad and NFD will not be free from Ethiopia and Kenya due to Somalia being in flame....I never said Kilinka 5aad and NFD will not join Somalia due to Somalia being in flame.....cause Kilinka 5aad and NFD are still controlled by KENYA AND ETHIOPIA and Somalia's turmoil has made it difficult for their freedom.....however.....if Somalia was not in turmoil then.......those areas would been more likely free from KENYA AND ETHIOPIA and afcourse

then will they join Somalia.

But who is occupying Somaliland? They are part of a nation called Somalia....simple.....really.

looool @ simple. Simple indeed.