Treating Christmas with Respect

[ElPunto]

Castro

 

Again:

 

Saying 'Merry Christmas' is not quite an endorsement of the diety of Jesus - what it definitely is a pat on the back or endorsement of those who do beleive in the diety of Jesus. It is a fine point.

 

Simply because non-Christins/Asians celebrate Christmas - that makes it a non-religious holiday? No, that tells you the power of marketing/cultural exports. If you talk to any practising Christian and say what is your biggest religious observance - he/she will likely say Christmas.

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by Castro:

quote:Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

If we celebrate and endorse other religious holidays for gaining acceptance for our own holidays and winning mutual respect in kind, as your rational of singing Merry Christmas seems to be, it would be hypocritical and phony stance to take.

I reject that argument saaxib. Quid pro quo is the name of the game here. No one is going to switch faiths because they say merry christmas or happy Hanuka. When I am celebrating Eid and my boss sends me an email wishing me a happy Eid, it's a nice gesture of good will. It's not an embrace of Islam. It's an embrace of a muslim who is a co-worker. It's incumbent upon heterogenous societies to be aware of its members celebrations'. Otherwise, we risk isolation and intolerance.

 

As for Jingle Bell Rock, it's a nice song that happens to be a christmas song whose lyrics are benign and tune is melodic.

Mostly true that - but I wouldn't equate Islamic celebrations with non-Islamic celebrations. One is truth and the others not. Hanuakah has nothing to do with diefication etc. so yeah that can be said with no probs. The problem with the other - Merry Christmas - has been detailed. That said - nobody is saying be nasty to your boss because he/she celebrates Christ. - the leap from not uttering the words - Merry Christmas - to intolerance and isolation is exceedingly far-fetched

[Medley of extemporanea]

Originally posted by Castro:

As for Jingle Bell Rock, it's a nice song that happens to be a christmas song whose lyrics are benign and tune is melodic.

Not all CHristmas songs are like that. like saying Joy to the world is not a benign song

 

Look at the lyrics to it:

 

Joy to the World

 

Joy to the world! the Lord is come;

Let earth receive her King;

Let every heart prepare Him room,

and heaven and nature sing,

and heaven and nature sing,

and heaven, and heaven and nature sing.

 

Joy to the earth! the Savior reigns;

Let men their songs employ;

while fields and floods,

rocks, hills and plains

Repeat the sounding joy,

Repeat the sounding joy,

Repeat, repeat the sounding joy.

 

No more let sins and sorrows grow,

nor thorns infest the ground;

He comes to make His blessing flow

far as the curse is found,

far as the curse is found,

far as, far as the curse is found.

 

He rules the world with truth and grace,

and makes the nations prove

the glories of His righteousness,

and wonders of His love,

and wonders of His love,

and wonders, wonders of His love.

[Medley of extemporanea]

Originally posted by Fathia:

I can not understand the point of celebrating Christmas. For one the actual birth of Christ was not on 25 Dec. This festival was originally celebrated by the pagans.

Songs like you watched the Boondocks last night

[S.O.S]

Thepoint:

Christmas, at least orginally, is about the celebration of the birth of Jesus etc. For many devoted Christians - that is primarily what it is about.

Ok, I’ll try it again:

 

The Christmas festival is originally not about celebrating the birth of Jesus; it has originated from a pre-christian pagan festivals, which was very important in the heathenish days of pagan European culture to welcome the winter season among other things. This pagan festival has evolved in the last two millennia to the present day Christmas, with its Christian and commercial flavour as experienced today. Therefore all of these are crucial ingredients to the forming of Christmas-holidays where if even a single element is taken out or isolated from the picture, no correct understanding of Christmas is possible! Have I helped now?

 

This is about what’s Xaqq and what’s Baatdhill!!!

 

We cannot whish FALSEHOOD, even for others, and we cannot sacrifice the THRUTH, even for a well-meant disingenuous gesture to please other so they can feel good about their bon vivant falsehoods!!!

 

We can neither ever say “merry Christmas†nor “happy new yearâ€!!!

 

P.S. Our Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) told us that: “Every nation has its own separate festivals; the festivals of this Umma are the two Eids†(or similar in meaning). He (peace and blessings be upon him) also told us that: “Whoever imitates other nations (i.e. cultures alien to Islam), is one of them†(or similar in meaning).

[xiinfaniin]

Castro, Do you realize how over-enthusiastic about this you are? Oh what an irony! Who is furnishing us with a ‘demented though’ now?

 

P.S: there is a sound tradition both in the Sunnah and in the Precious book as to how to deal with these issues. Ask if you don't know.

[Castro]

Originally posted by ThePoint:

Mostly true that - but I wouldn't equate Islamic celebrations with non-Islamic celebrations. One is truth and the others not. Hanuakah has nothing to do with diefication etc. so yeah that can be said with no probs.

"Truth" is in the eye of the beholder, saaxib.

 

Some one spoke of the Xaqq and the Baatil somewhere and I think that's taking it too far. It is taking too far because if that same person took everything as literally as they do in this case, that person should find it exceedingly difficult to live in a non-muslim country.

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by Castro:

quote:Originally posted by ThePoint:

Mostly true that - but I wouldn't equate Islamic celebrations with non-Islamic celebrations. One is truth and the others not. Hanuakah has nothing to do with diefication etc. so yeah that can be said with no probs.

"Truth" is in the eye of the beholder, saaxib.

 

Some one spoke of the Xaqq and the Baatil somewhere and I think that's taking it too far. It is taking too far because if that same person took everything as literally as they do in this case, that person should find it exceedingly difficult to live in a non-muslim country.

Oh Boy! The relativity debate again! The concept is straight-forward - If you believe in Islam and the Propeht(SAWS) then you believe it is the complete and ultimate truth. If you are a Muslim and you don't believe that - then you are weak in your faith. That said if Christians or Jews believe their message is the ultimate truth - good for them - that doesn't threaten me or impinge on my beliefs. To each his own.

 

Find it exceedingly difficult to live in a non-Muslim country - don't know what you're talking about saxiib - examples would be necessary.

 

BTW - the Quran/Hadith is to be taken literally - where debate exists is the intrepretation but that's is another matter

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by Shams-ud-Din:

quote: Thepoint:

Christmas, at least orginally, is about the celebration of the birth of Jesus etc. For many devoted Christians - that is primarily what it is about.

Ok, I’ll try it again:

 

The Christmas festival is originally not about celebrating the birth of Jesus; it has originated from a pre-christian pagan festivals, which was very important in the heathenish days of pagan European culture to welcome the winter season among other things. This pagan festival has evolved in the last two millennia to the present day Christmas, with its Christian and commercial flavour as experienced today. Therefore all of these are crucial ingredients to the forming of Christmas-holidays where if even a single element is taken out or isolated from the picture, no correct understanding of Christmas is possible! Have I helped now?

 

This is about what’s Xaqq and what’s Baatdhill!!!

 

We cannot whish FALSEHOOD, even for others, and we cannot sacrifice the THRUTH, even for a well-meant disingenuous gesture to please other so they can feel good about their bon vivant falsehoods!!!

 

We can neither ever say “merry Christmas†nor “happy new yearâ€!!!

 

P.S. Our Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) told us that: “Every nation has its own separate festivals; the festivals of this Umma are the two Eids†(or similar in meaning). He (peace and blessings be upon him) also told us that: “Whoever imitates other nations (i.e. cultures alien to Islam), is one of them†(or similar in meaning).

I don't disagree with most of your conclusions - however, the new year is a secular holiday - do not confuse the two. Just as we (used) to celeberate Somali Independence Day and we are Muslim.

 

That said - what was it that bothered you about my post?

[Castro]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

Castro

, Do you realize how over-enthusiastic about this you are? Oh what an irony! Who is furnishing us with a ‘demented though’ now?

Those are my opinions saaxib. Where they need adjustment from the Quran and the Hadeeth, they will be adjusted. So far, I've deliberately said nothing to go against the teachings and, therefore, your accusations are unfounded.

[xiinfaniin]

^^^I am not accusing you with any thing, saaxiib. I have just observed how you went out of your way to sing holiday songs, and still accuse others with fanatical surge. And that I thought was not wise at all.

 

But I am encouraged by the fact that you are open to amend those ‘demented thoughts’ if it flies in the face of the Sunnah. That’s very good of you.

[Castro]

^ Only a fool would stick to his guns when shown clear evidence, saaxib. Or have you not read Mutakalim's signature?

[Medley of extemporanea]

The folks that are saying it's unislamic to say "marry christmas" or sing christmas songs need to come with their proff!

[xiinfaniin]

Castro, Mutakallim’s signature, or more appropriately al macari stanza, implies more than that! Hope you understood what it meant .

[Castro]

^ I'm not surprised you take me for a simpleton atheer. May be because I descend to your level occasionally, you thought I resided there, atheer.