Niqaab

[Khayr]

U can't just make up u'r mind, before even looking at the evidence wich I'm about to present.

That is the ailment for jahil. Infact, there are accepted normas today. What is wrong is right and what is right is wrong.

Examples are:

 

1. Sex before marriage

2. Freedom to belief today and tomorrow to not belief. Aka Freedom of Choice

3. Homosexuality - accepted as a social norm and is now acceptable.

4. Hijab and Niqaab - they are choices and not wajib (obligatory).

5. Living with the opposite sex before marriage. Now known as "common law" partnership. It was wrong to do 50 years ago but today it is "right" to do.

 

In 2011, you can't even have a debate with anyone about these topics and this includes "muslims" because these are all altruisms, accepted truths. The Believers are now told that they can't question socially accepted norms. If you do, then you are labelled all kind of names and your name is dragged through the floor.

Caajib in deed. SubhanAllah!

[Khayr]

Prometheus;713186 wrote:

^ I suppose you think there is no such thing as

moral progress

? Alas, the conservative mind is ever ossified. To suggest that humans have made only technological progress in the past 2000 years is flagrant fundamentalism. Obviously, you know more about science than someone who lived a thousand years ago. Do you really think that you know nothing more about ethics and morality than a bronze-age Bedouin? Has our moral knowledge, our moral imagination, not expanded one iota since the golden age when people thought camel urine a panacea? Unlike people who lived in 12th century, we no longer believe in the inherent inferiority of women—we don’t insist that a woman’s testimony is inherently inferior to the testimony of a man. Slavery is a moral stain that can never be whitewashed. Those who defend any form of slavery today—this is true of right-wing Christians and Muslims—are moral monsters. We can forgive, but not embrace, our benighted ancestors’ ethical abominations. Their moral ignorance was no less pronounced than their scientific ignorance. You wouldn’t trust a medieval doctor to perform surgery on you, so why would you trust his moral guidance? Why should a rational person pine for the moral traditions of a primitive people? Does the accumulation of knowledge mean anything to rabid conservatives?

 

I think you're conflating moral progress with moral relativism. Progress does not necessitate relativism.

Call it what you want, to the mumin, it is all the same. Progress carries the banner of constant renewal and non preminance. It is a regression and not a progression because it is a spiralling down to nothing. What does the search for another universe do for MAN? What does making a car faster and faster do for MAN except for make more money at the expense of everything (family - longer distances to travel and faster times to travel. So no more communities but rather commuter based neighborhoods. Hence, people seeing their families a handful of times a year. Thats only one aspect of that argument. I could use the argument of the environment too.)

There is no premenance in Progress and Moral Relativism. So what was Wrong yesterday can become Right today and this is detected by those who have influence. Why else is democracy so much celeberated by Corporations, by the wealthy and affluent? Remember Obama, he sure hell wasn't a poor black boy and he sure hell didn't raise a billion plus for his campaign from the air. Just look at the people he put in power.

 

From the islamic perspective, Tawhid is everything and the idea of Tawhid, the Unity of God, the Premenance of God is NEVER CHANGING. So therefore, the Shariah based on the Quran and Sunnah and the ijtihads of the Ulama are also NEVER CHANGING. What was Wajib 1400 years ago is still Wajib today.

[LayZie G.]

Miskiin, this is turning out to be fun since you have chosen to dance around this issue instead of actually debating about it, so what I will do is play your game, I too can copy and paste, so here it goes and let me know when you have had enough and you want to get serious about this niqab business which you insist is waajib.

 

During the day of Nahr (10th Dhul-Hijja), when Al-Fadl bin 'Abbas was riding behind the prophet on his she -camel, "...a beautiful woman from the tribe of Khath'am came, asking the verdict of Allah's Apostle. Al-Fadl started looking at her as her beauty attracted him. The Prophet looked behind while Al-Fadl was looking at her; so the Prophet held out his hand backwards and caught the chin of Al-Fadl and turned his face (to the other side) in order that he should not gaze at her..." (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 8, Hadith No. 6228) 


 

The Prophet is reported to have said, "...The Muhrima should not cover her face, or wear gloves." (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 3, Hadith No. 1838) 


There can't be one rule for ihram and a different rule for everything else.

 

Narrated Ata bin Abi Rabah (R.A.) Ibn 'Abbas said to me, "Shall I show you a woman of the people of Paradise?" I said, "Yes." He said, "This black lady came to the Prophet and said..." (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 7, Hadith No. 555 - Dar Al Arabia- Beirut- Lebanon & Sahih Muslim Hadith No. 6571-Darusslam- Arabic)

If the complexion of the female was known, she couldn't possibly be veiled.

 

(Sahih Muslim, Vol. 2, Hadith No. 1926)

"...a woman having a dark spot on her cheek stood up..." seeking clarification on the subject the prophet was discussing.

Esteem scholars believe that a woman would not have stoop up or be in the presence of our prophet without a veil nor would she have been allowed to roam around freely without her veil, assuming that it was waajib......better yet, the woman in question would not have been recognized, dark spot or not without her veil on.

 

During the day of Nahr (10th Dhul-Hijja), when Al-Fadl bin 'Abbas was riding behind the prophet on his she -camel, "...a beautiful woman from the tribe of Khath'am came, asking the verdict of Allah's Apostle. Al-Fadl started looking at her as her beauty attracted him. The Prophet looked behind while Al-Fadl was looking at her; so the Prophet held out his hand backwards and caught the chin of Al-Fadl and turned his face (to the other side) in order that he should not gaze at her..." (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 8, Hadith No. 6228)

 

 

When Ibne Abbaas (RA), the leading commentator of the Qur'an was asked about 24:31 which states: And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof... , he replied, "it refers to the face and hands". (Collected by Ibn Abee Shaybah in al-Musannaf, Vol. 3, p. 540 & 541, hadith no. 16997 & 17012 and al-Bayhaqi in Sunan al- Kubraa. Al-Albaanee ruled in Jilbaab al-Mar'ah al-Muslimah, pp 59-60, that the isnaad of this statement is saheeh.)

How do you interpret ibne Abbaas's explanation? Does an opinion make the veil waajib because someone says so? What of allah's words? What of the many examples of women who were in the presence of our beloved prophet and were not wearing the veil?

 

 

 

In regards to the interpretation of Jilbaab as "a garment which covers the face", the late Shaykh Naasiruddeen al-Albaanee stated the following:

 

 

This misinterpretation is contrary to the basic meaning of the word in Arabic which is “to come close”, as is mentioned in authoritative dictionaries like al-Mufradaat by the well-known scholar, ar-Raaghib al-Asbahaanee. However, there is sufficient evidence in the interpretation of the leading commentator on the Quran, Ibn ‘Abbaas, who explained the verse saying, “She should bring the jilbaab close to her face without covering it.” It should be noted that none of the narrations used as evidence to contradict this interpretation are authentic.

 

Like the previous misinterpretation, this interpretation has no basis linguistically. It is contrary to the interpretation of the leading scholars, past and present, who define the jilbaab as a garment which women drape over their head scarves (khimaar). Even Shaykh at-Tuwaijree himself narrated this interpretation from Ibn Mas‘ood and other Salafee scholars. Al-Baghawee mentioned it as the correct interpretation in his Tafseer (vol. 3, p. 518) saying, “It is the garment which a woman covers herself with worn above the dress (*** ‘) and the headscarf.” Ibn Hazm also said, “The jilbaab in the Arabic language in which the Messenger of Allaah (pbuh) spoke to us is what covers the whole body and not just a part of it.” (vol. 3, p. 217). Al-Qurtubee declared this correct in his Tafseer and Ibn Katheer said, “It is the cloak worn above the headscarf.” (vol. 3, p. 518)

About the Khimaar (headscarf) covering the head and the face, al-Albaanee says the following:

 

In doing so “the face” has been arbitrarily added to its meaning in order to make the verse: “Let them drape their headscarves over their busoms” appear to be in their favor, when, in fact it is not. The word khimaar linguistically means only a head covering. Whenever it is mentioned in general terms, this is what is intended. For example in the hadeeths on wiping (mas-h) on the khimaar and the prophetic statement, “The salaah of a woman past puberty will not be accepted without a khimaar.” This hadeeth confirms the invalidity of their misinterpretation, because not even the extremists themselves – much less the scholars – use it as evidence that the covering of a woman's face in salaah is a condition for its validity. They only use it as proof for covering the head. Furthermore, their interpretation of the verse of the Qawaa‘id “… to remove their clothing” to mean “jilbaab” further confirms it. They hold that it is permissible for old women to appear before marriagealbe males in her headscarf with her face exposed. One of their noteable scholars openly stated that. As for Shaykh at-Tuwaijree, he implied it without actually saying it.

 

 

Abul-Waleed al-Baajee (d. 474 AH) who further added in his explanation said, “Nothing should be seen of her besides the circle of her face.”

al-Albaanee talks about at-Tuwaijree:

Shaykh at-Tuwaijree claimed that scholars unanimously held that the woman's face was ‘awrah and many who have no knowledge, including some Ph.D. holders, have blindly followed him. In fact, it is a false claim, which no one before him has claimed. The books of Hambalite scholars which he learned from, not to mention those of others, contain sufficient proof of its falsehood. I have mentioned many of their statements in Ar-Radd. For example, Ibn Hubayrah al-Hambalee stated in his book, al-Ifsaah, that the face is not considered ‘awrah in the three main schools of Islaamic law and he added, “It is also a narrated position of Imaam Ahmad.” Many Hambalite scholars preferred this narration in their books, like Ibn Qudaamah and others. Ibn Qudaamah in al-Mughnee explained the reason for his preference saying, “Because necessity demands that the face be uncovered for buying and selling, and the hands be uncovered for taking and giving.”

 

 

Among the Hambalite scholars, is the great Ibn Muflih al-Hambalee about whom Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyyah said, “There is no one under the dome of the sky more knowledgeable about the school of Imaam Ahmad than Ibn Muflih.” And his teacher, Ibn Taymiyyah, once told him, “You aren't Ibn Muflih, you are Muflih!”

yours truly, and forever,

LayZie G.

[Al-Miskiin]

LayZie G.;714043 wrote:

Miskiin, this is turning out to be fun since you have chosen to dance around this issue instead of actually debating about it, so what I will do is play your game, I too can copy and paste, so here it goes and let me know when you have had enough and you want to get serious about this niqab business which you insist is waajib.

Indeed it's remarkble, that u are writing this again and again, Yaa Allah, yaa kariim.

 

dancing around? I'm insisting on niqaab is waajib?

 

I wrote this in my last post:

 

walaal I've never once said my personal opinion on this topic! My personal opinion on this matter is not important, as it wouldn't changed anything.

and not only that, I also wrote:

 

I have however repeatedly told you that there is a very strong position among the Muslims that the niqab is wajib. This position is backed by many evidence from our Salaf (Dont worry I'll quote them below)! Therefore, it is strange that you, despite this continues to deny that this opinion is valid, and says that the only ones who have this opinion is "self proclamed scholars, that brainwashes people, just like kids are brainwashed to be suicidebombers"!!

!

 

I'm only engaging this topic, to refute u'r position that says "only self proclamed scholars says that niqab is waajib"!

 

And u'r opinion that says,

 

"there is absolutely no proof for niqab being wajib"!!! And than u talk about that its only some evil scholars that are trying to brainwash women, who says these thing.

 

It's this extreme opinion of your's that I'm agains. I dont in any way deny the opinion that says that the niqab is only sunnah, I even wrote this in my last post:

 

And I do not by any means sweep their view of the table (ie the scholars who believe that the niqab only is Sunnah), I respect them for that, and I know that this is an issue wich there is much debate about. And I could never think of calling them names like "self proclamed scholars" or worse.

Your whole debate is based on three false premises, namely

1: "that I dance around,"!

2: "that I believe that the niqab is wajib"!

3: I follow some "self proclamed scholars" blindly!

 

I Have severel times refuttet these claims, but since your whole debate is built on this, I understand that you can't let it go, for that means that u'r whole debate is built on false premises, wich of course wouldn't look good. and to proof this, lets see what u'r next will be.

 

Back to u'r premises

 

I'm talking about you can't have this extreme opinion of yours, that says only "self-proclamed scholars" say niqab is wajib"!!!

 

And than you say that I dance around? Was it not proofs you were looking for? What is a real debate for you? That we pic and choose from the english translation of the quran/ahadiths, and we begin to interpret them ourself?

Cuz that's what you always do, and when I ask for the Interpretation of the scholars-the sahaba, the Salaf in generel, you begin to say that "u'r following the scholars blindly"!

You asked for evidence from the scholars that believe Niqab is wajib, I posted them for you, and than your response was "yh yh, u are dancing around"?! 3ajiib wa gharib!

 

 

Also you severel times, insult the Sahaba, and the Muslim scholars with your comment that says

 

If you want to take what these self-proclaimed scholars say at face value or blindly follow their word

This is insult Beyond everything, if you are a Muslim, I would advise you to repent and make tawbah, for it is indeed only shaytan who insults the Sahaba and their successors.

 

 

Ukhti, it is clear to me that you have no knowledge about this topic, or at least you don't know how to proof something in Islamic discussions, without adding your personal opinions and desires.

 

When I'm posting what our Sahaba has said on the subject, and you take this as "dancing around"!

When I'm posting our Salaf's opinion on the subject and you call them "self proclamed scholars" even though you; yourself use what the Salaf said on the subject. It proves that you do not know the weight of your words.

 

To say that niqaab has nothing to do with Islam, and than say that it is recomended gives no sense?

 

how can you say:

 

the hideous garb is not divinely ordained piece of clothing, which means it has no place in our religion

And later u wrote that it's only recomended? If you agree on that it's only recomended, it's impossible for you to call niqaabka for "Hideous Garb"! calling sunnah "Hideous" is in itself wrong. U quoted Sh. Albani, he said the niqab is only sunnah and not wajib, but he never ever called it "Hideous" og would never do that. Cuz he belives it's only sunnah!

So who is it that is backing u'r opinion? Cuz it sure isn't the scholars that says Niqab is sunnah(recomended), as i said in my earlier post, u'r opinion is different from all muslim scholars, u have made u'r own strange opinion on the subject, far from everybody(the two camps of the niqab issue).

Therefor it's impossible for u to understand these things.

 

Another strange thing is that you believe that it is recomended and your still in favor of the ban? It shows that you have no idea what recomended means, because if you knew this, you would not speak ill of sisters who wear the niqab, as someone who is brainwashed, and you would not speak ill of the scholars who preach this.

 

It is these and many other extreme contradictory positions I'm talking about.

 

It's an extreme opinion, to say that niqaab has nothing to do with Islam, there are plenty sahih evidence that the Prophet (salallahu alayhi wasalam) wives use to wear niqab, to give you a small example of the hadith you took:

 

The Prophet is reported to have said, "...The Muhrima should not cover her face, or wear gloves." (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 3, Hadith No. 1838)

 

It says in Fathul bari(that is the sharax of Sahih Bukhari), this Hadith, explained further it says:

 

Aysha(the wife of the prophet pbuh) said

"A woman in a state of Ihram (during Hajj and Umrah) should stretch her head - cloth over to her face to hide it."

 

and also in a Hadith - Recorded by Ahmad, Abu Dawud and ibn Majah, Narrated 'Aisha.

 

Narrated 'Aisha (RA) who said, "The riders would pass us while we were with the Messenger of Allah ). When they got close to us, we would draw our outer cloak from our heads over our faces. When they passed by, we would uncover our faces.

 

and in Imam maliks muwatta(20.16), there is another hadith that says:

 

"We used to veil our faces when we were in ihram in the company of Asma bint Abi Bakr as-Siddiq."

 

 

and your argument that says:

There can't be one rule for ihram and a different rule for everything else.

Of course this is not true. There are so many things, u can't do in a state of ihram, that usually is allowed. Normal things like "Hunting on land" "parfuming ones clothes" intercourse between a man in his wife" etc etc. All these things and many other things are not allowed in Ihram, but permissible in other times.

 

So it's a mystery to me when I quoted great scholars from the sahaba and those that came after them, that u just sweep all that away by claiming they arent "real scholars" or "self proclamed scholars"! And that one should not trust them blindly!

 

 

That's why I'll take this advice by brother Bob

 

bob wrote:

Al-Maskiin brother waxaan kugula talin lahaa inaad meesha ku xidhid sheekada si aadan u dambi ugu dhicin walaasheen Layzie-na ay usii dambaabin after all muran aan wax la kala qaadaneyn waa macno daro markee meeshaa gaartana waa laga haraa.

I'll stop my discussion here because it's clear that it does not lead to anything good, besides a lot of wasted time. People who want to know anything about this topic can read what the scholars have written on the topic, explore the topic in depth, and Insha Allah take the position that you see as the strongest, without going to the extreme side and calling the other opinion "self proclamed"!

 

Nobody should have to take what is written in this debate as proof of anything, take your knowledge from what has been narrated by our prophet (salallahu alayhi wasalam) and his Sahaba, and last but not least, our esteemed scholars who spent so many years to preserve the sunnah of our beloved prophet (salllahu alayhi wasalam)!

 

Scholars that have talked about this(beside the great mufasirin ind their books, and in severel ahadith books) are the late scholars like Sh. Bin Baz, Uthaymeen, and Sh. Albane May Allah have mercy on all of them. And Insha Allah u'll fine both opinions on the writings of the shuyuukh. Both the people who says niqab is wajib, and the other side that says it's only sunnah.

 

 

But verily I would rather wish every Muslim girl wearing proper hijab before we talk about the niqab. If we achieved that all Muslim girls wore proper hijab wallahi this would be a great ni3ma.

 

 

May Allah forgive me for what wrong I may have said in this unimportant debate, verily, I can't afford more sins, I have enough of sins in my everyday life.

 

If there was any good that I said, then it was from Allah alone. and all the wrong I might have said is from shaytan, and my weak soul.

 

Wasalamu 3ala manitabi3al Huda.

[LayZie G.]

Two or three posts earlier, you said the following:

 

As I said, if the evidence says that its wajib, than it doesn't matter what other scholars says. The scholar should only be followed with the proofs he have, and nothing else.

Hadalkayga bal hal maroo kale dhuux: Anigu ma lihi in aynan jirin aduunkoo dhan HAL GABADH oo lagu khasb niqaabka, kolay waxkasta aduunka waa laga helaa.

Culimadda muslimiintuna ilaa salafkii(saxaabaddi, tabiciintii, iyo kuwii ka dambeeyeyba) way ka hadleen arintan niqaabka. In badan oo ka mid ahina waxay qabaan inuu waajib yahay, in yarna waxay qabaan inuusan ahayn, laakiin shay fiican uu yahay.

Hadaan qawlka culimadda ee ku saabsan arintan keeno, miyaad ku qanci?

As you can see, you talked about women's choices and in less than 2 posts, you were telling me how NIQAB is waajib, and while you did not explicitly come out to state that niqab was waajib, (and Allah knows how many times I asked you to take a position for the sake of clarity), you insisted that the majority of the opinion, according to Miskiin supports the position that NIQAB IS WAAJIB.

 

You said warka culamada waan inaa lagu qan'aa.

 

As a result, I asked you to produce evidence to the contrary, you went around it not once, twice but more than three times and to this day, you continue to dance around the issue instead of producing evidence.

 

I went as far as to state that when in doubt, allah instructs the believer to question and investigate, I produced evidence from the quran that instructs the believer to do just that. On the other hand, you remained silent about that.

 

I went as far as stating some of the hadiths and opinions you will be using to make your point before you shared them, I said that is in doubt because some culamas dispute some of the so called opinions you used on the basis that the evidence (narrations) they used were inauthentic, this isn't Layzie G saying it, this is the information I shared with you thats long been out there but instead of providing commentary, you remained silent.

 

I went as far as sharing some of the hadith narrations and opinions that were long established which shows that women did not wear a veil in the presence of the prophet (s.a.w) but instead of sharing your views on that, you remained silent.

 

I went as far as saying that when doubt is raised and doubt is raised by the presumed scholars, we need to turn to the word of Allah and continue to search for the truth.

 

While I did my best to help move the debate along (assuming that we had one since you dont even know how to present an argument), the onus was on you, not on me to produce evidence to the contrary. I asked you to kindly produce textual evidence.(if you want to read what I wrote, please dig up the post in question) to make your case.

 

Mida kale, you strengthened my argument by citing secondary sources full of parenthesis, which shows that inserting a word or extending the meaning of come here to mean more than come here is exactly what I warned you about but you choose to believe what you want to believe and I can't help someone who is determined to follow people blindly. You did not dispute the examples I shared with you about some of the hadiths, which testify to it that women did not wear the veil in the presence of the prophet (s.a.w) and most importantly, the verses in the quran that speak about women's garments and lowering gazes but not about niqab or niqab being waajib.

 

I dont choose my beliefs, I follow the evidence and the evidence says there is no evidence to contradict that the veil is not waajib.

 

Granted that you disagree with me, state the obvious, tell me you disagree with my extreme views but do not come here and sell me the idea that NIQAB IS WAAJIB. We only obey Allah's words, not individuals. YOu choose your believes and thats were you and I have profound disagreements.

 

Furthermore, when you disagree with someone and you say, well I dont share your view that NIQAAB is not WAAJIB, you are in word saying, NIQAAB IS WAAJIB, which means you are taking an opposite stand and you cant run from it. Embrace and own your position.

 

In short, I've cited the quran as well as the hadith and scholarly opinion, you have only cited secondary and at times, unverifiable sources, which at one point or another were dismissed as being inauthentic, which means those sources are not credible by the standards of some cullama's who spend a life time mastering the methodology of the hadith. Moreover, you will agree that our esteemed scholars have more knowledge about the deen than you and I and perhaps all of SOLers put together, which means atleast we agree on something, even if its not the subject of niqab.

 

 

yours truly, and forever,

 

LayZie G.