Sunnah Versus Shia Discussion Forum

[Nur]

Nomads

 

 

Brother Viking, one of my oldest discussion mates on Somalinet, who is also active at this site and I, have disussed the Shia Sunni difference before, from memory, Viking told me that although he read more Shia materials than Sunni, that he does not consider himself a Shia person, so in that spirit, I would like to invite Viking bro. and any Shia brother or sister to participate in a friendly discussion in which we will unearth as much facts as we can to build uderstanding, at times the discussion could be raw and direct, every particpant should not loose objectivity, and reason. It is expected that Shia wil say what they are taught the Sunni to be, and Sunnis will say what they are taoght Shia to be, to get educated first hand.

 

Viking referred to the fact that I have suggested a reading of Nahjul Balaagha of Ali Ibnu Abu Talib, Radiyallahu canhu, I confirm that remember that I did, because I have read the book in Arabic, the authenticity of that book though needs a discusiion on its own merit as most Shia literature are not autheticated as diligently as the sunnah sources, ( astatement that can be challenged and for which I am ready)in addition to doing comparative discussion on the Shia school of thought and the Sunnah school.

 

The main issue that needs to be addressed when discussing Shia Sunna diferences is to discuss it in a scholarly manner in which we refer to the school of thought's Aqeedah and Fiqh differences, making Tawheed our common reference point we subscribe to and to which we should converge, because if our understanding of Tawheed diverges apart, then we will be like Christian and Jewish scholars who say something and do anything accoording to any inspired Saint.

 

It is important to note that Islam in its present format, was a single faith started with Prophet Mohammed SAWS, the years that followed, a political dispute took place within the companions, and the two schools of thought grew farther apart, it is no secret that enemies of Islam have taken advantage of this rift and many Aqeedah issues differences surfaced so wide that when I read about books of Shia scholars, I just shake my heads, Scholars like Kuleiny, one of the great scolars of the shia, I have to figure out if what he narrates are form Ali Radiyallahu Canhu and his son Hussein, and Zeinul Abideen who according to the Sunnah scolars were great men of kowledge and wisdom and piety, or if indeed an insider non-musilm with a mission to destroy Islam from within took control and wrote completely divergent faith like that of Saint Paul when he failed in his mission to wipe Christians and resorted to a secret agenda, when he claimed that he saw Jesus on the Road to Damascus, thereby single handedly getting the authority rerwriting Christianity's new flavor of three Godheads that are stil one God, ( numerical ambiguity of onenness as Viking claims) the concept of Original Sin and the many other Concepts that Jesus never taught that are the today the center pillar of Christianity.

 

 

For us to do a fair assessment of the rift bewteen the Shia and Sunnah, what we need is a forum discussion in which we approach the discusion as a tool to get closer to each other, to learn from one another, in this sense, if indeed we are all following Tawheed, then, we can cement the differences, on the other hand if any school shows shirk in any of the major forms, then, we need to uproot it and educate those who are in clear shirk.

 

 

The discussion is open

 

 

Nur

[JustCause]

I am sorry people, I was having system problems. Thus, the reply here was just a test, whether I could reply or not, so carry on with the discussion!

[OG_Girl]

in thit sense, if indeed wea are all following Tawheed, then, we can cement the differences, on the other hand if any school shows shirk in any of the major forms, then, we need to uproot it and educate those who are in clear shirk.

I just can see these lines NOT clear to me, what you mean IF? Al-tawheed's root is word "wahada" and opposite is shirk !!

 

From the texts of Ahl'ul Sunnah we learn that the declaration of Iman, -which is opposite of "Shirk"- is as follows:

 

"I believe in Allah,in his Messengers, in his Angels, in his Books, in the Day of Judgment, the fact that everything good and bad is from Allah and that Life exists after death". Those are my major forms two Muslims can't disagree but any thing above that or else we call different opinions or schools.

 

By the way what are yours?

 

So, let us leave those big words like (shirk, kufr or takfer) and just say discuss differences. I don't think Shi'a can fit that category, since they agreed "arkan al-iman", Sunnah too.

 

 

PS: You will say as usually I think differently, yes I DO but in good way.

 

Salam

[Nur]

Og Girl

 

Walaalo, This topic is rather complex, and the comments that i made are addressing an issue of fundemental importance, the Sunni Shia difference which is an Aqeedah issue and specially, Tawheed issue. The Shia imaamiyah believe that the imaams are sacred and devine, they worship them ad ask them for help, which is essence of Towheed al Uluuhiyah. Please relax, and follow the discussion because I am eager to read any point of view from Shia readers or Sunnis.

 

Nur

[Nur]

The Sunni Shia discussion will face a fundemental problem, ARBITRATION, simply there is no common reference standard which both schools agree.

 

For the Sunnis, The Quraan is COMPLETE, No ERRORS, Th word of Allah SWT, and it is the reference point for all differences.

 

For the Shia, The Quraan is NOT COMPLETE, they believe ONLY thir IMAMS know the real Quraan, so the Shia rely on folk stories for their faith and few books written by their scholars.

 

Now, it elps to compare the authenticity of the Hadeeth and the sources of the Shia's,

 

 

Below I am reposting the methodology followed by Ahlul Sunnah in compiling Hadeeths, I challenge any Shia to produce the Shia methodology for their sources.

 

 

From an old topic posted on Somalinet Boards;

 

 

Brothers and Sisters, Asalaamu Alaykum wa rahatullaahi wa barakaatuh

 

All praise is due to Allah, who has completed his divine messages and way of life on us, and have further showered us with his numerous gifts by guiding us to the straight path. I am therefore grateful for the gift of Islam, and if it was not for any other gifts accompanying it, and they are many, it would have been more than sufficient.

 

I also bear witness with all my mind, heart and soul, and with every breath and heartbeat, that there is no one or a thing worthy of devotion, absolute love, supremacy, sovereignty, my subservience other than Allah SWT, known also , by God, Dio, Jehovah, Eebbe. The creator of the Universe and the laws that bind it and break it, the originator of life, and the repeater of it's sequence, the God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammad, The God of the atheists and believers alike, the Just, and fair, who sees all and who has set aside a day for his creatures judgment, so the good among men are rewarded and the evil doers are punished.

 

I pray and seek a befitting place for our Messenger and Prophet Muhammad SAWS, his companions, family and for anyone who follows his footstep seeking the pleasure of Allah SWT ALONE.

 

The most trustable source is the Holy Quraan, while the best guidance toward the Quraan came from Muhammad SAWS, the worst of matters are transformations in faith, because, every transformation, is introducing an innovation which is diverging from the original path, which in turn will eventually will lead to the doorsteps of hell.

 

The credit of what we know of Allah SWT goes to the prophets in general, and to our Prophet Muhammad SAWS in particular, so since knowing Allah SWT is the utmost need humans have, to know his messenger and his sayings comes as the most important endeavor we must seek, and there is no better place to start than the science of the Hadeeth, which is a meticulous compilation of the actions and sayings of the prophet by his family members, in laws and the closest of his companions.

 

The best of behaviors and the wisest of words that we value today, have all emanated from our Prophet Muhammad SAWS, and in following his footsteps, we are indeed responding to the call of Allah SWT

 

" Whatever (matter, idea, law, suggestion, way of doing things) brought forth to you by the prophet, accept it, and fulfill it. And whatever (matter, idea, law, suggestion, way of doing things) he has warned you about, abstain form it"

 

" And Muhammad was not but a mere messenger, before him many messengers came to pass, therefore, if he dies, or is killed, are you going to go back to your old ways (of lifestyle)? whoever goes back to the old ways, is not harming Allah with anything, and Allah will surely reward, the grateful ( among his creatures, who respond to his call) "

 

Now that we have stressed the importance of the deliverer of our faith and the Quraan , it goes without saying that the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad SAWS are of utmost importance second to the Holy Quraan, as his actions and sayings are the practical application of the Quraan. Ayesha, the wife of the Prophet may Allah be pleased with her, who was the source of great part of the Hadeeth, and the teacher of the companions, said of the prophet SAWS " His Character was the Quraan" in other words, he lived as an embodiment of the message of Allah SWT to be emulated by mankind. He has therefore set the real standard of decent behavior, and the criterion of morality and right and wrong in all matters of life and in every sphere of interest we have, for all peoples and for all times. His message is therefore binding and eternal.

 

Based on the above, I humbly begin putting together the case for the importance of the existence Hadeeth, the drivers for the appearance of the hadeeth, the men of the Hadeeth, and the sciences of the hadeeth.

The following is a quick edited survey of the Hadeeth that I have contributed as an answer to MAD MAC, which is relevant to be a starter in this thread, as we will go beyond the surface this time around to treat this topic the best way possible as a service to Allah SWT and in search of his pleasure Alone.

 

 

Introduction

 

 

The Prophet Muhammad SAWS spent 23 years delivering the message of Allah to the people of Allah in Arabia. His companions who have known him and his opponents alike respected him in a way no man was ever respected in History.

 

Prophet Mohammed SAWS, since his childhood was known for honesty, within his tribe , the Qureish, they called him Mohammed Al Ameen, or the honest. At age 40 when he suddenly the revelations came to him with the message of Islam, it caused great anguish among his closest relatives and tribe alike. Because his message was compromising the position of their predominant and highly regarded tribe among the Arabs. In a sense, the message was similar to a southern white fighting for the rights of the blacks in the 1800's can you imagine the uproar he could have caused?

 

In those 23 years of active Dawa (Preaching) of Islam and political and military life, his companions, listened and memorized his sermons and speeches, short and long. A father would narrate it to his children and so on. So while he lived there was no problem with authentication as he was alive and no one has attempted to make up stories. During his life, the prophet warned that anyone who falsifies a hadeeth is securing his permanent place in Hell. For that reason, the companions took great pains in not reporting a Hadeeth that they doubted its authenticity.

 

After his death, the Muslims saw the importance of compilation of the Hadeeth and a meticulous system of collection was set up for the collection and classification of the Hadeeths. This process grew into a new Islamic science in its own right called the sciences of the Hadeeth (al Cadl- wal- Tajreex, cilmul- isnaad, Al taraajum etc) These are sciences that set qualification standards of credibility for narrators of the Hadeeeths, ISNAAD, or the science of referencing, which was born with the Hadeeth science, and the AL Taraajum, which are the biographies of the reporters of the hadeeth, their genealogy, geography of their lands, cultures and everything related to the reporters of the hadeeth as a measure to qualify there assertions and motives.

 

As we will learn in this thread, the Muslim scholars went great lengths to ascertain the authenticity of the hadeeths for fear that imposters would make up hearsay hadeeth and they have actually created some. Because the product in question was the word of the holy Prophet SAWS to be transmitted to human kind, Islamic scholars invented the due-diligence and credit and background check system employed by the financial and the law enforcement industry today for the purpose of authentication.

 

 

Topics to be discussed in this thread:

 

 

1. Definition of hadeeth,

 

2. Classification and glossary,

 

3. Methods of narration.

 

4. Biographies of Narrators

 

5. Science of Referencing (ISNAAD)

 

 

Today, we will cover

 

1. Definitions for starters

 

Linguistically, the meaning of (Hadeeth) is from the Arabic word HADATHA, or news, incident, event etc.

Hadeeth ( News) linguistically is antonym with (Qadeem) past, old, history,

Also, in the Arabic, the young kids are known as (Axdaath) new age ( not to be confused with new age religion).

 

The word Hadeeth in the religious context is reserved to all the news that were reported from the Prophet Mohammed SAWS. So the news needs verification. And the verifications of the story is the science of the Hadeeth. If the same rigorous method of cross, contextual, integrity, background, environment, etc verification is applied to Newsweek and Time Magazines, ( The contemporary Hadeeths), for example, they would not stand a chance in publishing a single issue, why you may ask, and the answer to that question leads to the next Chapter.

 

Types of Hadeeths

 

1. Category one : Saheeh (Correct)

A Hadeeth of this category enjoys the highest credibility, it is used in the Sharia as an augmentation of the explanation of the Quraan. Denial of a Hadeeth in this category is a grave sin and it can lead to Kufr.

 

This Category has many variations of Correctness, and ahadeeth to be ranked Sahih, or Correct must meet all of the criteria's of correctness, ( Political Correctness, is not considered in Islam). As an introductory survey, we will mention three of the elements of correctness for an example.

 

1. Correct in terms of the line of narration (ISNAAD)

 

2. Correct in terms of the anthology ( Method of collection) Similar to police evidence collection methods ( Remember the Simpson Case?)

 

3. Correct in terms of the text itself (MATN).

 

So as you can deduce, a hadeeth can be correct in terms of line of narration and compilation, but still may fail the textual integrity, in this case we call this hadeeth a defective Hadeeth ( maa' lool), failing to reach Sahih level, but still may qualify for other category as we will visit.

 

If on the other hand the hadeeth is textually correct, but the line of narration has a gab in the linkage of narrators, we call this hadeeth Broken chain hadeeth ( Munqadie).

 

If the hadeeth is compiled in a way different than the standard methods employed by the scolars ( Jumhur), then, that hadeeth does not enjoy the Saheeh category and we will visit the terminologies in the days to come in ShaAllah.

 

A hadeeth can further be Correct (Saheeh) for its own contents self support, ( This is like a travel document for a refugee, not a passport for a citizen) we call this category ( Saheeh li thaatih).

 

A Hadeeth can further be correct for the support of another Hadeeth only ( Saheeh li gheirih), or the Hadeeth can serve both roles.

 

In another category, the hadeeth can be saheeh on the conditions set by the compilers ( saheeh alaa shardeyhimaa), the compilers are Bukhaari and Muslim.

 

And the last category of this quick survey is the (Correct-but-Odd) category, (saheeh ghareeb), meaning the hadeeth has qualified for the saheeh category but was reported by only one narrator with top credibility clearance.

 

Criteria For the Classification of The Hadeeth

 

 

The following Five Criteria are used to classify a hadeeth to be a Saheeh

 

 

1. Al Sanad ( Chain of narrators ), The chain is continuous, no missing links.

 

2.Adaalah, (Narrators Character, must be flawlessly perfect, in terms of piety, credibility, courage, generosity, wisdom and good judgment) If this stringent condition is applied in politics, no US president or any other world leader today can fulfill such requirement.

 

3. Al Dhabd, ( meaning that the narrator have memorized the hadeeth beyond question, or recorded it in a tablet, and is able to recollect it with consistency whenever requested. This condition implies that he is mentally sharp, serious in delivering responsibilities. ( President Ronald Reagan would not have made it to the Whitehouse with his famous "I Do Not Recall" )

 

4. Cadam Al Shuduud, (A Hadeeth must not be an odd hadeeth) , Shuduud means that a narrator who is sufficiently credible provides a hadeeth that contradicts another hadeeth narrated by a more credible narrator, in terms of degree of their respective memorization competencies, lingusitic compprehension abilities ( Not failing their SAT) etc. ( This is analogous to two officers with different levels of security clearance presenting testimony to a judge to support a point of view. The testimony of the officer with the higher level of clearance supercedes the testimony of the lower clearance level officer)

 

5. Cadam Al E' laal. (Free of any defective characteristic that compromises the hadeeth's credibility ( for example there is a mismatch in the names of the narrators, like saying, Ronald Kennedy reported this hadeeth from John Reagan), so although this hadeeth may have met other stringent requirements, it clearly has a defect (E'llah) although when closely viewed may not present serious infringement of the rules, if we patiently reconstruct the sequence, like ( Ronald Reagan reported form John Kennedy).

 

 

So Any Hadeeth that passes those criteria with flying colors is called Saheeh in general terms, because, there is more to calling a hadeeth saheeh than this survey of ours can cover.

 

 

Category Two. The Hassan hadeeth

 

 

Hassan Hadeeth is not as flawless as the Correct ( Saheeh) hadeeth we have discussed above, but is nevertheless a reliable hadeeth that passed key Non-Fatal error criteria to qualify for applicability with caution, this is like the yellow light when driving, you have to proceed with caution, relying on Quraan as a check, but still leveraging its value on areas were other more reliable hadeeths are not available. ( This is like physicists relying on a theory until they find a better explanation) This Category though, is much more reliable than the next category of the Daciif, weak hadeeth.

 

Al Tirmidhi , One of the major compilers of the Hadeeths has defined the Hassan Category as follows : Any hadeeth , whose narrators:

 

1. Character is not a Questionable issue , while some of the narrators in the chain may be known to be forgetful in some past narrations , but have never lied knowingly at any point in their lives ever.

 

2. The Stature of this narrator do not rise to the level of the reporters of the Saheeh category in the above five scoring criteria ( Meaning, they have lower level clearance ), yet, the narrators meets some minimum acceptability standard (beyond scope of this brief survey) to be considered a reliable hadeeth.

 

 

Final Category is the (Daeef ) category ( Weak hadeeth) any hadeeth who fails in the above two categories is Weak, A weak hadeeth is not advised to be followed or applied in any legal issue nor settle an ambiguity in faith matters nor business law dsiputes. Unfortunately, Many of the Hadeeths floating and causing confusion in the Muslim world belong to this last category, which promts the attack on the Sunnah and Hadeeth and. This type of hadeeth, is the kind of evidence a Judge will not hesitate to throw out of his court.

 

 

Nur

 

2002 Nurtel Communications

Modern explanation of Legacy Traditions

 

--------------------

Kuwa iga da'weyn, waa iga ajar badan yihiin, Kuwa iga da' yar, waa iga dambi yaryihiin.

[Viking]

Nur,

The other half of this thread is on..

 

http://somaliaonlinecom.siteprotect.net/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?

 

What to do?

[Mutakalim]

So said the poet:

 

bi anna caliyyan afdal an-naasi kullahum

wa arwacahum bacda an-anabiyyi wa ashjacu

wa low kuntu ahwaa millatan qayra millatii

lamaa kuntu illaa musliman atashayyacu!

 

 

ya quuluuna maa baala an-nasaaraa tuxibbuhum

wa ahlu an-nuhaa min acrabin wa acaajimi

faqultu lahum inni la axsabu xubbuhum

siraa fii quluub al-khalqi xattaa al-bahaaimi

[JustCause]

Originally posted by Viking:

Nur,

The other half of this thread is on..

 

http://somaliaonlinecom.siteprotect.net/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?

 

What to do?

Nur as Viking is asking, where do we go from here, since the post is split????

[Nur]

Viking bro.

 

Please migrate your discussion to this thread, I am not going back to Somalinet as long as the place is the way its founders like chose to be, I am very eager to read and respond to your couner point on this thread, but please reciprocate my straight forward way in answering quesions, I remember that once youve asked me who was right in the dispute between Ali and Mucaqawiyah, I said in two words Al was right. Likewise, please be direct in answering.

 

What we are questioning in this thread are the beliefs of the Shia, Like the Imamate, Rajcah, Their belief that the Quraan is not Complete, The Infallibility of the Imams, Mutah, Their contempt to Abu Aubakar, Omar and Osman, and their belief that Aisha, Mother of the believers who Allah SWT cleared from any wrong doing in Suurah Al NUR, has committed Zinaa. HaashsAlillah. Also, The fact that the Shia believe that Sunnis are Kufaar, and that all evil the Shia do is originally belong to Sunnis, and that all good Sunnis do belong to Shia, and in the day of judgement Allah will swap them and make the Shia pure by fiving their evil to Sunnis, and The Good of the Sunnis will be given to Shia.

 

 

Feynman

 

Like I said to Viking, This will be the only thread that I would discuss this issue.

Nur

[Nur]

NOMADS

 

 

Viking Bro Wrote a Aqeedah article that is said to be the work of Ali Aleyhi Salaam. When we discuss matters of faith it is preferable that we always relay on Quraan as the first source from which we draw our conclusions, if we can not find that inQuraan, we lok into the Hadeeth of the Messneger fo Allah SWT, and if not then we look into the Khulafaa like Ali aleyhhi Salaam and then the Taabiciin.

 

First of All, any statement that conflicts with Quraan and Hadeeth has to be reconciled with the Quran and Hadeeth, if not possible, it should be discarded.

 

After reading these words that Viking referred to Ali Radiya Allahu Canhu, I immedieately understand the underlying motives for such post, and if it was not for my in depth studying of the Aqeedah of the Shia Imaamiyah, I would not have taken the matter this serious, but as long as anyone is active in preaching a concept that has diverged widely from mainstream Islam, my responsibility will remain to invite them politely to come back to simple Islam, One Direct route with no stop over, One God, One prophet, One way, One hope for salvation.

 

In That spirit I call Brother Viking to take my dialogue gracefully with cool head.

 

Now, coming back to the statements.

 

First saying posted by viking reads:

 

" He is with everything but not in the sense of [physical] nearness.

 

Answer:

 

1. Allah is close and NEAR to his creatures:

 

" And when my servants ask you(Muhammad) about me, tell them, I am close (to them)"

 

 

2. Allah is With his believers in their casue:

 

Allah SWT says about Prophet Muhammad and Abubabakar Al Sadiiq Radiyallahu Canhu:" ...While these two were in the cave, when ( Muhammad SAWS) says to HIS FRIEND, " Do not feel sad, ( because) Allah is WITH us"

 

 

3. No One can rescue us from Allah:

 

Allah SWT says in Suurah Qaaf : " We have indeed created man, (yet) We are closer to him than his own Xablul wariid, ( major blood Vein passing through the neck)"

 

 

Viking wrote that Ali Radiyallahu canhu said:

 

 

" He is different from every thing but not in the sense of separation".

 

 

Answer:

 

Allah SWT says in Quraan " Leysa ka mithlihi shey" meaning, nothing is similar to Him"

 

But Allah is (MUBAA YEN), meaning Separate from His creatures, He is in NO WAY part of His creatures. But His control is over all of His dominion. A programmer and His computer are not a single entity although the Programmer is manipulating the computer remotely by WiFi or EVDO technology, Because if we assume that Allah SWT is not separate from His creatures, then worshipping Humans becomes acceptable, because Like the Hindu and the Old Zoroastrian Persian faiths, worshipping all thing becomes like worshipping God, which is a falacy.

 

 

Viking Writes:

 

 

" He is not inside things in the sense of physical [pervasion or] penetration, and is not outside them in the sense of [physical] exclusion [for exclusion entails a kind of finitude].

 

Answer:

 

Allah SWT says: " He is the Thaahir, and He is The Baatin" meaning, that Allah SWT is apparent, and He is the unseen. These sifaat or qualities in the Sunnah school of though are left as they are, we say, The quality is linguistically known, How it is that way, is none of our business as servants, indulging in such philosophical discourse is innovation, innovation in technology is good, but in faith it is bad and forbidden.

 

 

Vikin writes:

 

"He is distinct from things because He overpowers them, and the things are distinct from Him because of their subjection to Him."

 

 

Answer:

 

He is distinct is true, HOW it is so, Allah did not tell us, and it is not our business, our business is to worship Him with the Knowledge that He has revealed, in Quraan and hadeeth, which is enough since He said that " I have completed your Deen (faitha dnway of life)" adding to it will contradict the completion statement"

 

 

Viking Writes:

 

" -He is the One, but not in a numerical sense."

 

 

Answer: Allah SWT says in Suurah Saafaat" Inna ilaahakum la WAAXID" meaning, your ilaah, God, is BUT ONE" Allah SWT is ONE in everey sense, never a multiple in any way, because the word (LA) in Arabic connotes ( XASR) exclusivity, no other possibilities of multiples of dieties.

 

 

Viking Writes:

 

 

" - He is not confined by limits nor counted by numbers. "

 

 

Answer: Allah SWT says: "Laa tudrikuhul absaar, wa huwa yudrikul absaar" meaning, that sight does not catch up with Him, instead He reaches sights" Allah counted Himself in NUMBER He said about Himself " Your God is But ONE"

 

 

Viking Writes:

 

 

"- He who points to Him, admits for Him limitations; and he who admits limitations for Him has numbered Him."

 

 

Answer:

 

The Prophet SAWS questioned a woman to test her faith asking her where Allah is, She pointed to the heaven saying allah is in the Samaa, The prophet SAWS confirmed her iimaan to be true.

 

Allah SWT says: " Wa lillahil mashriqu wal maghrib, fa aynamaa tuwallu fa thamma wajhullaah"

 

Meaning the East and the West belong to Allah alone, so no matter wherever you face, ther is the face of Allah SWT" So by pointing or facing we are not limiting Allah or numbering Him, we are just seeking Him the way He instructed us, we only do things He ordered us to do, the WAY He taught us through His Messenger"

 

 

Viking Writes:

 

" - He who qualifies Him limits Him. He who limits Him numbers Him. He who numbers Him denies His pre-eternity. "

 

 

Answer:

 

We only say about the qualities of Allah SWT, what HE said about Himself ONLY, we do not say things He did not say about Himself. Allah SWT has 99 names describing His qualities, we believe in it, we know Arabic language, but How He is so, we do not dare ask, because it is not our business as servants, we worship Him, and Love Him.

 

By saying Allah is ONE, we are not limiting Him, we mean He is the Eternal, because if you want to play the numbers game in this logic, counting backwards, before 4 there is 3, and before three , there is 2, and before 2, there is (1), and before one there is (ZERO), no one is before UNITY of Allah Subxaanahu wa tacaalaa culuwan katheeraa'

 

Viking Writes:

 

 

"- Everything associated with unity is deficient except Him."

 

 

You could also say: Everything who is associated with Hearing is deficient except Him.

 

- Everything associated with Seeing is deficient except Him.

 

- Everything associated with Strength is deficient except Him.

 

 

.............and so on if you plug in all 99 sifaat.

 

 

Nur

 

2004 e-Nuri Aqeedah Vigilante

[Maymuunah]

Walaal Nur somaliaonline have created a siteprotect where nomads can go if the original somaliaonline is down..like a few days ago. and that is where Viking is talking about. some Nomads of Suni Vs shia's posters have went there and posted.So don't worry about somalinet you are no going back there. click the link He gave above and you will see it or this one http://somaliaonlinecom.siteprotect.net/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?

[Viking]

Sareeda,

Thank you for directing brother Nur.

 

 

Nur,

The thread has been spread on two different places and that makes the discussion much more difficult. I don't know how the admin plans to correct this. Anyways, that is beyond my control.

 

Back to the topic...You at times take things VERY literally and that is often pretty scary. Those traits are most evident with our brothers who follow the doctrines of Muhammad ibn AbdulWahhab. Your ideas sound 'Wahhabi' just as much as mine sound 'Shia'. Allah SWT knows where the truth lies.

 

- He is with everything but not in the sense of [physical] nearness. He is different from every thing but not in physical separation.

 

PS: The ending of the last sentence was wrong and I have corrected it now. It is to read "physical seperation" and not "in sense of seperation" as earlier.

 

What is your problem with this statement? Do you know that you limit Allah SWT by saying he PHYSICALLY close to this or that? He is with everything: aware of everything that goes on in the mind of the Hindu in Mumbai and also knows what goes on in the head of the Fulani man working in a fields in West Africa. For that, Allah SWT does not need physical proximity.

 

 

And to God belong the East and the West; whither so ever you turn, there is the Face of God... (The Holy Qur'an 2:115)

 

 

And He is God in the heavens and the earth; He knows your secrets, and what you publish ... (The Holy Qur'an 6:3)

 

He is the First and the Last, the Outward and the Inward; He has knowledge of everything. (The Holy Qur'an 57:3)

 

 

 

These sifaat or qualities in the Sunnah school of though are left as they are, we say, The quality is linguistically known, How it is that way, is none of our business as servants, indulging in such philosophical discourse is innovation, innovation in technology is good, but in faith it is bad and forbidden.

Bro Nur, just the other day, you were telling me that ... "in Islam we have the phyisical with al its four dimensions, 3+ time, as a single dimension, then there is another Ghaib, dimension, which is where heaven and hell lie, and all others like angels and Jinn."

 

Where did you get these 3+time dimensions that you claim was from Islam? You used your own scientific knowledge and made it an Islamic fact.If that isn't BID'A, then am not sure what innovation really is.

 

 

Nur said...

Answer: Allah SWT says in Suurah Saafaat" Inna ilaahakum la WAAXID" meaning, your ilaah, God, is BUT ONE" Allah SWT is ONE in everey sense, never a multiple in any way, because the word (LA) in Arabic connotes ( XASR) exclusivity, no other possibilities of multiples of dieties.

Allah SWT's Divine Unity is NOT a numerical concept but an ontological one. The Oneness Allah SWT talks about means that there is NO OTHER LIKE IT. If you look at it from a numerical point of view, then we inevitably assume that two is more than one, which basically qualifies us as mushriks.

 

 

Nur said...

Answer: Allah SWT says: "Laa tudrikuhul absaar, wa huwa yudrikul absaar" meaning, that sight does not catch up with Him, instead He reaches sights" Allah counted Himself in NUMBER He said about Himself " Your God is But ONE"

Again...think ontologically, NOT numerically.

 

Nur said...

Meaning the East and the West belong to Allah alone, so no matter wherever you face, ther is the face of Allah SWT" So by pointing or facing we are not limiting Allah or numbering Him, we are just seeking Him the way He instructed us, we only do things He ordered us to do, the WAY He taught us through His Messenger"

Everything belongs to Allah SWT. If I ask you where Allah SWT is, can you point to yourself?

 

Nur said...

 

By saying Allah is ONE, we are not limiting Him, we mean He is the Eternal, because if you want to play the numbers game in this logic, counting backwards, before 4 there is 3, and before three , there is 2, and before 2, there is (1), and before one there is (ZERO), no one is before UNITY of Allah Subxaanahu wa tacaalaa culuwan katheeraa'

Again, just like all the other times; THINK ONTOLOGICALLY, not numerically. Divine Unity is not numerical but ontologial.

[JustCause]

Since the post is split and we cant continue the discussion like this I have decided to post the missing posts here. The post below is reply a friend and I, made to the topic.

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I am posting this post on behalf of a friend who cant post here for reasons beyond their control and I am happy to act as an intermediary between the author and anyone who has a differing opinion on this issue. Through out the text, the author used ‘we’, as I have let them use my name and back everything they say here! Therefore, if there are any mistakes I am more than willing to share the blame with the author!

 

----------------The response-------------------

 

Let us say from the outset that this discussion is pointless and it will only go on to deepen the divisions and the mistrust of the two communities. Is also pointless because there is no need for it as there are no visible Shi’as in these forums. One of the reasons why we decided to step in and challenge any myth that put forward about fellow Muslims by you. We hope you know what you are doing here and may God guide us all.

 

“For the Shia, The Quraan is NOT COMPLETE, they believe ONLY thir IMAMS know the real Quraan, so the Shia rely on folk stories for their faith and few books written by their scholars.â€

 

The above statement we believe is not true and we will refute in due time with evidence from both Shi’a and Ahl'ul Sunnah scholars. Shi'as, believe like their fellow Sunnah Muslims, that the Qur'an is the Divine Revelation (wahy) from Allah, upon his noble Prophet, containing an exposition of all things. It is also His everlasting miracle barring all humanity from keeping pace with it in respect of rhetoric and eloquence, and the realities and sublime knowledge it contains, being guarded against any alteration or changing or mutation (tahreef). The Qur'an the Shi’as have today is the same exact one revealed to the Prophet. Anyone claiming to the contrary is misguided, mistaken, or ignorant (to say the least), for it is surly Allah's Word, and falsehood can never come at it from before it or from behind it.

 

The Shi'a recites the same Qur'an at their homes and the same Qur'an is taught at their Madrassas (religious schools). Apart from this, Shi'a scholars have written commentaries of the Qur'an in many languages including Arabic, Persian and numerous other languages. If anyone here have seen a different version of Qur'an in any Shi'as house or at their religious schools, please come forward with it; we can assure you we have not seen it. Shi'as believe that this Qur'an is complete and a miracle of the Holy Prophet (S), which is an undoubtedly the fact. However, some dishonest (we admit we are using a very strong word here and doing so to emphasise how displeased we are with the whole accusation), so-called scholars have accused Shi'as of denying this high status of Qur'an. This accusation is baseless to say the least. To refute the above, we would present what some of the Shi'a scholars and the scholars of Ahl'ul Sunnah say on this issue.

 

The completeness of Qur'an is beyond doubt among Shi'a and that the greatest Shi'a scholar of Hadith, Abu Ja'far Muhammad Ibn Ali Ibn al-Husain Ibn Babueyh, known as "Shaykh Saduq", wrote:

 

"Our belief is that the Qur'an which Allah revealed to His Prophet Muhammad is (the same as) the one between the two covers (daffatayn). And it is the one which is in the hands of the people, and is not greater in extent than that. The number of Surah's as generally accepted is one hundred and fourteen ...And he who asserts that we say that it is greater in extent than that, is a liar."

Etikadat Shaykh Saduq 93, Published Iran)

 

 

Sayyid Murtaza Alam ul-Huda: We have a firm belief that the Qur'an is complete in the same way that we believe in the existence of Kufa, Basra or any other city, or the great events that occurred through history. The reason for this firm belief is (firstly) due to the deep affections Muslims have towards the Qur'an and other reason which keep this book, of Almighty Allah, safe from any alteration. Also the Qur'an is (a sign of) the miracle of Prophet Muhammad's Apostleship. It is the source and foundation via which we locate our religious edicts and regulations. It is for this reason that Muslim scholars throughout history have taken great care in its compilation to the extent that if they were unsure about the minutest of matters, they would to examine it (the Qur'an) rigorously. Our belief about the compilation being the exact copy (as the original) is as strong as our belief that the Qur'an is the Book of Allah (swt). The present Qur'an is exactly the same Qur'an that was compiled during the life of Prophet Muhammad (S).

Tafseer Majma-ul-Bayan, Edition 1 Page 15, Published Iran

 

 

Shaykh Muhammad Hussein Kashif: The Qur'an that we possess is the same text that Allah (swt) sent as a miracle, to bring fear to the people, to let them know about the commandments and the difference between good and bad. It has never been changed nor has any addition or subtraction ever occurred to it, all the scholars agree to this fact. Moreover these scholars agree to the fact that whoever alleges that Qur'an has been changed is wrong. Also all the claims of Qur'an not being complete, whether made by Shi'as or Ahl'ul Sunnah, are very weak. These claims are not beneficial in any regard whether that be to attain knowledge or perform a good deed. These claims should be disregarded.

Usul al-Shi'a wa Asool-laha, Page 101-102, Published Najaf

 

 

The above was just a drop in the ocean of what some of the Shi’a scholars have to say about the completeness of the Qur’an. We will now present the opinions of some Ahl'ul Sunnah scholars, who confirmed that the Shi'a believe that the Qur'an is the uncorrupted Word of Allah (swt).

 

Sheikh Ghazzali of Egypt whilst addressing the allegation that the Shi'a ascribe tahreef to the Qur'an, he had the following to say: In one gathering I heard a man say that Shi'as have a different Qur'an, which is unlike the Qur'an we have. I asked him, "Where is that Qur'an? Islam is being practiced on three continents. Since the demise of the Holy Prophet (S) until today, a passing of fourteen hundred years, the Ummah has known of the existence of only the one Qur'an, we possess knowledge of where the chapters begin and end, end as well as the number of verses that they contain. Where is this other Qur'an? During this long passage of time how is it that any man or jinn have not located this 'other' Qur'an? These lies cause dissention between brothers and cause dissention about the Book. There is only one Qur'an, if it is published in Cairo, it is considered holy in Najaf and Tehran as well, they will hold it in their hands and keep it in their homes. They have nothing but respect for the Creator that sent it, and the person through whom it was revealed. Why then are such rumours and lies spread about people and this message?

Wafa an Al aqida wa Al Shariah, Page 265-266, Publishers Al kutub Al hadisia, Egypt, 1985

 

 

Principal of the Shariah Department of Al Azhar University, Sheikh Muhammed-al-Madani: To state that the Shi'a Imamia believe that the Qur'an on account of traditions that can be located in their texts, is just the same as reaching the conclusion on the basis of such references in our books - but both Shi'a and Sunni scholars have refuted these claims. None amongst the Imamia Shi'a and Zaidia believe in this lie, in the same way that none of the adherents of Ahl'ul Sunnah do. Whoever accuses the Shi'a of ascribing to tahreef of the Qur'an, should read books such as Allamah Suyuti's "Tafseer Itqan" and objectively look at the traditions that point to tahreef of the Qur'an. Although we do not accept these sorts of traditions, one Egyptian scholar in 1948 wrote a book titled "Al Furqan" in which he copied many of these traditions from the works of Ahl'ul Sunnah. Should we on this basis conclude that the Ahl'ul Sunnah do not believe that the Qur'an is complete? Or should we on account of these traditions which were copied by someone or written in such and such book by such and such a person, adopt the viewpoint that the Ahl'ul Sunnah believe that the Qur'an is incomplete? The same conclusion could likewise be reached about the Shi'a, as like us they also have similar traditions in their books.

Risalah'thul-Islam, 11th Edition, Pages 382-383, 4th Par

 

The above opinions from different scholars of the divide puts to rest the myth that the Shi’as believe the Qur’an is ‘NOT COMPLETE’. If anyone thinks other wise please produce your copy and let us all see it.

 

“The Shia imaamiyah believe that the imaams are sacred and devine, they worship them ad ask them for help, which is essence of Towheed al Uluuhiyah".

 

Here you are talking about, "Tawassul" and the meaning of this word is ‘nearness’. Nowhere does say in Shi’a literature that they ‘worship’ their imam’s and you are challenged to back this accusation with hard evidence; we beg you brother not just to throw accusations without backing them up. Furthermore, this concept of ‘Tawassul ‘ is not only limited to Shi’a but even some of Ahl'ul Sunnah believe it and if one were to stretch your logic here, these people too are committing ‘shirk’. Having set the groundwork and answered the charge of whether the Shi’as possesses a different Koran to you and us, let us now explain what Tawassul is and it is origin.

 

The meaning of tawassul as stated before is 'nearness' or a 'means' through which to reach a certain goal [see Lisan al-'Arab and any other dictionary for that matter]. For instance, according to the prominent Sunni scholar, Sayyid Muhammad Alusi al-Baghdadi, ‘wasilah is a means of imploring in order to gain nearness to God through good deeds and abstaining from sins.’

 

We will back the following claim, the use of tawassul with Islamic literature and further show that eminent Islamic characters/scholars have used it and so on. It should be noted that intercession/intervention in no way diminishes the fact that everything is under Allah’s dominion. When we use the means of approach toward Allah (SWT), it does not mean Shi'a or anyone else are worshiping that means, thus in no way does it go against the verse, “Thee do we worship..â€(1:4).

However, Allah created secondary causes and means, which He has encouraged us in the Holy Quran to use as assistance. For instance the following verse,

 

“Oh you who believe! Fear Allah and seek the means of approach to Him, and strive hard in His way, that haply you may have success†(5:35).

 

 

When one analyses the words in this verse closely one sees that "fear Allah" is an order to abstain from sin, while "seek an approach unto Him" is an order to perform worship and acts of devotion (see Ruh al-Ma'ani, vol. 6, p. 124-128).

 

Bukhari, Tirmidhi, and many others relate, through their chain of narrators from 'Uthman ibn Hunayf, that a blind man came to the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and said, "I've been afflicted in my eyesight, so please pray to Allah for me." The Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) said: "Go make ablution (wudu), perform two rak'as of prayer, and then say:

 

"Oh Allah, I ask You and turn to You through my Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of mercy; O Muhammad (Ya Muhammad), I seek your intercession with my Lord for the return of my eyesight [and in another version: for my need, that it may be fulfilled. O Allah, grant him intercession for me]." The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) added, "And if there is some need, do the same."

 

This hadith was recorded by Bukhari in his "al-Tarikh al-kabir", Ahmad (4:138 #17246-17247) and many other hadith masters have conformed that this hadith is Sahih.

 

This authentic (Sahih) narration proves the validity of “tawassul†through a living person. This is a clear and unambiguous text from a companion of the prophet proving the legal validity of tawassul through the dead.

 

If tawassul was idolatory (shirk), or if there were any suspicion of idolatry in it, the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) would not have instructed to it, when the blind man asked him to beg Allah for him. The fact that he told him to make "tawassul" to Allah through him proves that it is not shirk. What about after his death, did any of his companion perform it, indeed they did.

It has been narrated in Sahih al Bukhari by Anas, “Whenever drought threatened them, 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, used to ask Al-Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib to invoke Allah for rain. He used to say,

 

"O Allah! We used to ask our Prophet to invoke You for rain, and You would bless us with rain, and now we ask his uncle to invoke You for rain. O Allah ! Bless us with rain."

Sahih al Bukhari Volume 2, Book 17, Number 123 Chapter “Istisqaaâ€, Narrated by Anas.

 

Why would the second khalifa turn to Abbas as a Wasila? Why could he not ask Allah (swt) DIRECTLY himself for rain? Why was he placing this matter into the hands of Abbas? These very important questions need answering by those who accuse Shi’a and others the use ‘tawassul’ is committing ‘shirk’; this dare I say is the ultimate sin one commit. Look forward to some convincing answers for these rather important questions.

 

It doesn’t matter whether one approaches Allah with or without tawassul (provide that they don’t commit shirk), and both means are acceptable in Islam. As shown this method of practise is not exclusive to Shi’as only and nor do they condemn for not using it. Nor do they say to one, the fact that you did not Shafee’ (intercessor) will not get your prayer accepted.

 

That was our brief response to this post and look forward to any replies that people might post.

[JustCause]

The post below is Nur's reply to our post.

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Unknown Shia Debator

 

You write:

 

"Let us say from the outset that this discussion is pointless and it will only go on to deepen the divisions and the mistrust of the two communities"

 

 

I have never seen a longer response to a pointless discussion, how long is your rsponse for beneficial topics?

 

 

Honestly, after looking how long your response was, I expected more convincing arguments than actual, Thsi pointless discussion is meant to educate Muslims of the differences between Sunni and Shia, if you claim that there are no fundementral differneces, my job is to show it and back it from the Shia scholars and their books, so relax, If I put forward a convincing argument, I am just helping you save your skin, so it is not a matter of who wins an argument, instead, its is who wins Paradise.

 

The above was to prepare you for a more substantiated discussion of the Aqeedah of the Shia Imaamiyah and Ithnaa Cashariyah.

 

 

Now that you say that the Shia accept the Quraan as complete, How can I accept that statements face value when you also believe the Al Tuqya as a means to conceal your hidden beliefs from the Sunnis?, Sheik Babouweih Al Qummi said " Tuqya is waajib, a must, hwo does not practice is similar like someone who dose not pray salaat" he also said, explaining the verse " The best of you in the eyes of Allah, the most God fearing, " "the one who uses Tuqya the most"

 

in other words, How can we trust people who believe that the Sahabah to be Kufaar, and have cheated and conspired against Imaam Ali, stole Fatima's land, interpreting the Quraan in a whole different way (by Tusi, and Tubrusi) just to make Ali, Hussein and fatima the center of the Universe, and idols?

 

What has to be clarified is:

 

1. Shia's stand about the authenticity and completeness of Quraan, because there is nothing in the Quraan to support many of their claims of the importance of imaams, so in secret the Shia are taught to hold on to the current Quraan, up until the Mahdi comes ( the 12th imaam, wh they claim that he disappeared 1000 years ago) . Amazingly you said they agree with Sunnis, On Quraan, I say , they dont, I have the burden of proving a negative, a difficult task, luckily it is easy, wallahul mustacaan calaa maa tasifuun.

 

 

2. Shia Do not accept any of the Sunni Sheiks, Hadeeths or sources unless it is convenient to support or advance one of their key theological philosophies of Wilaayah of Aalal Beit, the axis of their religion, as you have skilfully used on this thread,

 

3. Shia believe that no one is saved except through the Imaams, the last Imaam, is hiding for over a 1000 years and he will appear as the Mahdi.

 

4. The imaams are the infallible, Macsum, and because The prophet SAWS said that all himans are fallible, it follows that the imaams are not humans, thus Gods whose Shafaaca gets the Shia closer to God, just like Quresih used to make Tawasul to Allah what they claimed to be his daughters, Latta, Cuzza, and Manaat, saying, " We only worship them as Tawassul to Allah"

 

3. Shia believe that all the Sahabah cheated Ali and that they are Kufaar, they denied Ali His Sacred Wilaayah, and Abu Bakar cheated Fatima of her Fathers inehritance, and Aisha Committed Zina ( Macaadhal Allah).

 

 

Let us take a bite out of these topics, this should be very educational.

 

 

Nur

[JustCause]

The post below is Salafi_Online's reply to our post.

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Innalhamdulillah...

 

quote: I have never seen a longer response to a pointless discussion, how long is your rsponse for beneficial topics?

 

Excellent observation!

 

However brother Nur im quite perplex as to why you would want to debate with the shia’s when their state of affairs is well know. Their actions have reached the level of Shirk, But what about those who wear the cloak of Ahlul Sunnah waJacamah, but have strayed beyond belief? At least the Shias are up from about their beliefs…about what the following groups who have misguide the tender Muslims from the Correct Aqeeda?

 

. Nation of Islam

. Ansaru Allah

. Moors

. Warith-deen

. Bahaullah

. Naasibis

. Shi'ites

. Baatiniyyah

. Boharas

. Dawoodi Boharas

. Nusayris

. Durze

. Agakhaani

. Jamaat-e-Islami

. Sufism

. Deobandism

. Tableegi-Jamaat

. Bareilwiyat

. Naqshabandis

. Hizb-ut-tahreer

. Ikhwani

. Jihaadis

. Qur'ânites

. Qadariyyah

. Khawariji

. Jahmiyyah

. Ash'ariyyah

. Matrudiyyah

. Murji’ah

. Zaahiri

. Khalifites(19ers)

. Takfiris

. Habashis

. Mehdavis

. Goharshahi

 

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unto Allâh falls in PROSTRATION whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and so do their shadows in the mornings and in the afternoons.(13:15)

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