Egypt protests Cairo is a war Zone

[Jacaylbaro]

Let it begun ,,,,,,,,,,, Let the big show begun

[General Duke]

Massive waves of euphoria are sweeping through the region now, my friends in Baghdad, Sanaa, Beirut and Damascus tell me as they sit glued to their TV screens.

 

Tunisia was the start but Tunisia was far away, people said; it's small and relatively educated compared to the rest of the Arab world – but Egypt is something else. For almost two centuries Egypt was the heart of the Arab world, influencing it with cinema, music, journalism and ideology.

 

A Yemeni official I talked to yesterday was so enthusiastic he called what is happening "the great Arab revolution" that will sweep away corrupted regimes – including his own, he said. "Those regimes that have been running their states like fiefdoms, looted by army generals, tribes and the sons and cousins of the president will go. After decades of stagnation the people are awake now and the days of these decayed presidents are numbered."

 

The Iraqis I have talked to all expressed a sense of shame. A friend told me on the phone from Baghdad: "We Iraqis looted and gutted our museum in 2003 while the Egyptians protected theirs. They protected houses and public buildings while Baghdad was reduced to rubble within days of the fall of the regime. Egyptians love their country; they are patriotic; we weren't."

 

One Egyptian embassy official put his hands on his knees and said with a shy smile: "You know the president thinks he is like a big father. He treats the people like they are his children: 'go to sleep', and they all sleep, 'wake up', and they all wake up. Things have changed: the people are no more children, and you can't boss them around. If you don't talk to them in the language of democracy you will be swept away."

 

Arab kings and presidents are scrambling to appease their people: Jordan's king dismissed his government, Algeria's president said he will end emergency laws, the Yemeni president pledged not to run again. But for us Arabs, the biggest change has already happened. The holy image of his deity the ruler, surrounded by fearless, mustachioed mukhabarat officers, has been shattered.

[General Duke]

There have been tensions between religious groups in Egypt in recent months. Today, religious leaders have stressed their unity. We told at 12.41pm how at Friday prayers in Tahrir square, the Catholic cardinal in Egypt reportedly linked hands with a Muslim cleric. Al-Jazeera English now reports that Christians in Alexandria formed a security cordon around the Muslims while they knelt for Friday prayers.

[General Duke]

[General Duke]

[GoldCoast]

LayZie G.;692737 wrote:

GoldCoast, what is the population of Cairo? How many hooligans called "the naar square" home the last 10days? And are you going to come here and say the entire Cairo population are out there causing mayhem?

 

Essentially, you are saying not all of Cairo(which is the current hotbed of chaos and a good reason for using the city as an example) but all of Egypt are out on the streets, throwing stones, bleeding to death and if thats not enough, they resort to looting and probably resort to setting vehicles and buildings on fire with a side dish of threats of beheadings.

 

Please, put your glasses on, grab a pen and a paper and do some serious calculations, no cheating.(calculator is a big no no for you)

 

I find it incredible that you would log in to SOL with a straight face and repeat some of the Arab media's talking points. Waxaan oo kale mar danbe meesha hala imaanin.

 

Just like you, I tune to the same foreign coverage (yes, even arab media) and I see what you see. Few hundred(maybe thousands) of disgruntled youth, who have no future and probably have been sniffing glue the night before having a go at the middle age fadhi kudir crowd(you know the shiisha smoking, coffee drinking), while the overwhelming majority of Egyptians have been brought to their knees, cairo and else. Some locked in their homes, glued to their television sets and if they dont have television, those day labourers are putting their 2, 4 or 6 yr old son or daughter to bed not knowing if they will feed them little less than the day before or whether or not they have anything to feed them at all? This is the reality that faces many Egyptians...and especially CAIRO residents.

 

BTW, the person who will never be somebody(directed at your last post) needs some serious history lessons if he thinks the Arab world and Egypt's history started in the 20th century. Maybe while you are crunching some of those numbers above , you might want to grab a book too.(just a sisterly advise)

 

 

 

SANKA, don't turn this into a

Forbes 100

list where it concerns the Al-Kingpin. Instead, ask yourself, is the enormous source of wealth warranted? It's a legitimate question, one that should be open to debate.

More ad hominem, more projection, but little fact or consistency in your arguments as usual. Stop shifting the goalposts and answer the question directly. We have regime orchestrated violence quite easy to witness in this information age with a draconian crackdown that has included chariots, camels,donkeys, bullets and police vans mowing down unarmed protesters yet it was you who first suggested that the protesters represented thugs and terrorists. Since it has become quite clear that you no longer can defend this narrative you have shifted the argument into the direction of more projection based on whatever fits your narrow ideological outlook. Next you will tell us the regimes asnine claims of a Western and Israel devised consipiracy have some sort of validity in them.

 

You question my knowledge of the history of the region, yet quite clearly miss the significance of the uprising. These are without a shred of doubt the largest public demonstrations against a regime in over a century in Egypt, yet you've attempted to characterize it as the minor workings of "hundreds" (LOL). It is the regime that decided to burn, murder, and grind Cairo to a halt not the protesters. Quite hilarious how you mimick the state propaganda by shifting the blame of the chaos and insecurity on to the protesters. It will be quite amusing to see how you shift and squirm to transform your argument when the Western powers withdraw support for the regime. You suggest for me to pick up on my history, but its quite clear you have little to zero understanding of Egypt when minimizing the significance of these protests. Millions of media sources outside of the Arab sphere will also support the contention that the uprising is country wide and not minimized to Tahrir Square. Save the rhetorical aggrandizing for your hypocritical support of democratic rights in one sphere of the world. If you dont support the self determination of the Arabs then at least be forthright in your argument. All your other claims are an insult to the intelligence of this board.

[General Duke]

It's not radical Islam that worries the US – it's independenceThe nature of any regime it backs in the Arab world is secondary to control. Subjects are ignored until they break their chains

 

Noam Chomsky guardian.co.uk, Friday 4 February 2011 16.30 GMT Article history'The Arab world is on fire," al-Jazeera reported last week, while throughout the region, western allies "are quickly losing their influence". The shock wave was set in motion by the dramatic uprising in Tunisia that drove out a western-backed dictator, with reverberations especially in Egypt, where demonstrators overwhelmed a dictator's brutal police.

 

Observers compared it to the toppling of Russian domains in 1989, but there are important differences. Crucially, no Mikhail Gorbachev exists among the great powers that support the Arab dictators. Rather, Washington and its allies keep to the well-established principle that democracy is acceptable only insofar as it conforms to strategic and economic objectives: fine in enemy territory (up to a point), but not in our backyard, please, unless properly tamed.

 

One 1989 comparison has some validity: Romania, where Washington maintained its support for Nicolae Ceausescu, the most vicious of the east European dictators, until the allegiance became untenable. Then Washington hailed his overthrow while the past was erased. That is a standard pattern: Ferdinand Marcos, Jean-Claude Duvalier, Chun Doo-hwan, Suharto and many other useful gangsters. It may be under way in the case of Hosni Mubarak, along with routine efforts to try to ensure a successor regime will not veer far from the approved path. The current hope appears to be Mubarak loyalist General Omar Suleiman, just named Egypt's vice-president. Suleiman, the longtime head of the intelligence services, is despised by the rebelling public almost as much as the dictator himself.

 

A common refrain among pundits is that fear of radical Islam requires (reluctant) opposition to democracy on pragmatic grounds. While not without some merit, the formulation is misleading. The general threat has always been independence. The US and its allies have regularly supported radical Islamists, sometimes to prevent the threat of secular nationalism.

 

A familiar example is Saudi Arabia, the ideological centre of radical Islam (and of Islamic terror). Another in a long list is Zia ul-Haq, the most brutal of Pakistan's dictators and President Reagan's favorite, who carried out a programme of radical Islamisation (with Saudi funding).

 

"The traditional argument put forward in and out of the Arab world is that there is nothing wrong, everything is under control," says Marwan Muasher, a former Jordanian official and now director of Middle East research for the Carnegie Endowment. "With this line of thinking, entrenched forces argue that opponents and outsiders calling for reform are exaggerating the conditions on the ground."

 

Therefore the public can be dismissed. The doctrine traces far back and generalises worldwide, to US home territory as well. In the event of unrest, tactical shifts may be necessary, but always with an eye to reasserting control.

 

The vibrant democracy movement in Tunisia was directed against "a police state, with little freedom of expression or association, and serious human rights problems", ruled by a dictator whose family was hated for their venality. So said US ambassador Robert Godec in a July 2009 cable released by WikiLeaks.

 

Therefore to some observers the WikiLeaks "documents should create a comforting feeling among the American public that officials aren't asleep at the switch" – indeed, that the cables are so supportive of US policies that it is almost as if Obama is leaking them himself (or so Jacob Heilbrunn writes in The National Interest.)

 

"America should give Assange a medal," says a headline in the Financial Times, where Gideon Rachman writes: "America's foreign policy comes across as principled, intelligent and pragmatic … the public position taken by the US on any given issue is usually the private position as well."

 

In this view, WikiLeaks undermines "conspiracy theorists" who question the noble motives Washington proclaims.

 

Godec's cable supports these judgments – at least if we look no further. If we do,, as foreign policy analyst Stephen Zunes reports in Foreign Policy in Focus, we find that, with Godec's information in hand, Washington provided $12m in military aid to Tunisia. As it happens, Tunisia was one of only five foreign beneficiaries: Israel (routinely); the two Middle East dictatorships Egypt and Jordan; and Colombia, which has long had the worst human-rights record and the most US military aid in the hemisphere.

 

Heilbrunn's exhibit A is Arab support for US policies targeting Iran, revealed by leaked cables. Rachman too seizes on this example, as did the media generally, hailing these encouraging revelations. The reactions illustrate how profound is the contempt for democracy in the educated culture.

 

Unmentioned is what the population thinks – easily discovered. According to polls released by the Brookings Institution in August, some Arabs agree with Washington and western commentators that Iran is a threat: 10%. In contrast, they regard the US and Israel as the major threats (77%; 88%).

 

Arab opinion is so hostile to Washington's policies that a majority (57%) think regional security would be enhanced if Iran had nuclear weapons. Still, "there is nothing wrong, everything is under control" (as Muasher describes the prevailing fantasy). The dictators support us. Their subjects can be ignored – unless they break their chains, and then policy must be adjusted.

 

Other leaks also appear to lend support to the enthusiastic judgments about Washington's nobility. In July 2009, Hugo Llorens, U.S. ambassador to Honduras, informed Washington of an embassy investigation of "legal and constitutional issues surrounding the 28 June forced removal of President Manuel 'Mel' Zelaya."

 

The embassy concluded that "there is no doubt that the military, supreme court and national congress conspired on 28 June in what constituted an illegal and unconstitutional coup against the executive branch". Very admirable, except that President Obama proceeded to break with almost all of Latin America and Europe by supporting the coup regime and dismissing subsequent atrocities.

 

Perhaps the most remarkable WikiLeaks revelations have to do with Pakistan, reviewed by foreign policy analyst Fred Branfman in Truthdig.

 

The cables reveal that the US embassy is well aware that Washington's war in Afghanistan and Pakistan not only intensifies rampant anti-Americanism but also "risks destabilising the Pakistani state" and even raises a threat of the ultimate nightmare: that nuclear weapons might fall into the hands of Islamic terrorists.

 

Again, the revelations "should create a comforting feeling … that officials are not asleep at the switch" (Heilbrunn's words) – while Washington marches stalwartly toward disaster.

 

© 2011 Noam Chomsky

[Somalina]

It is interesting to see folks here giving so much attention to Egypt while close to 2.5 million Somalis don't have a glass of water to drink.

 

Do you think Egyptians care about what goes on in Somalia? Ah! Somali men! enough said.

 

p.s. I hope Mubarak stays.

[GoldCoast]

^ Great piece.

[GoldCoast]

Somalina;692847 wrote:

It is interesting to see folks here giving so much attention to Egypt while close to 2.5 million Somalis don't have a glass of water to drink.

 

Do you think Egyptians care about what goes on in Somalia? Ah! Somali men! enough said.

 

p.s. I hope Mubarak stays.

Paying attention to Somalia and other world events is not mutually exclusive so please save me your patronising. What exactly have you contributed to Somalia specifically that sets you apart from the people who posted in this thread? Bickering and endless clan posturing that passes as political debate is not helping those 2.5 million.

 

Do you think Somalia operates in a regional vacuum, in the sense that major world events do not effect it? You are free to be apathetic but do not try to lecture anyone on following your stance from faulty moral grounds.

[Cawaale]

If you think the Egyptians are ****** and that they should give up, you should think about the 300 civilians were killed in the past 10 days, the brutality of the police and the Stubborn man behind it. This is only a glimpse of what the Egyptian people have lived with for many years.

 

People randomly attacking foreigners in Cairo. yesterday a friend of mine was robbed, and there are several cases of physical attack elsewhere i was told. Today if you are foreigner, specially white you are in trouble. Also early this morning five Somalis were taken from their house by the Army and no information about their where-boats to this moment.

[General Duke]

[General Duke]

[General Duke]

Yesterday, NevineZaki posted this picture on Twitter, saying it shows Christians protecting those praying in Tahrir Square amid violence between protesters and Mubarak supporters. She wrote "Bear in mind that this pic was taken a month after z Alexandria bombing where many Christians died in vain. Yet we all stood by each other"

[Somalina]

GoldCoast;692849 wrote:

Paying attention to Somalia and other world events is not mutually exclusive so please save me your patronising. What exactly have you contributed to Somalia specifically that sets you apart from the people who posted in this thread? Bickering and endless clan posturing that passes as political debate is not helping those 2.5 million.

 

Do you think Somalia operates in a regional vacuum, in the sense that major world events do not effect it? You are free to be apathetic but do not try to lecture anyone on following your stance from faulty moral grounds.

Are you sure you want to get personal with me?

What i do for my people is not up for discussion. Btw, I don't see lecture notes on here, so I really don't know what you are on about. Did I perhaps hit a nerve somewhere? Spare me your calaacal please, I could care less about what some hooligans are doing on the streets of Cairo every 5 minutes.

 

The Arab throwing rocks in Tahrir SQ doesn't give 2cents about the woman losing her livestock in Galgaduud or the kid dying of dehydration in NFD, and If I point out your BS concern for the Egyptian people's well being there is absolutely no need to bite my neck you hear!.

I honestly don't care for your nonsense opinion about me, so you better save it for the anti-Mubarak fans on here. I hope I made myself clear.

p.s. Don't start something you can't finish.