Preserve Islam: be a muslim first

[Kruella]

Last I remember, Modesty was a lady no beard in sight.

 

I agree with the whole "Dajjal system" that foster kufur, shirk, idolatry and so forth. We must be aware at all times of those threats however we should take care not to alienate people because everyone is a potential Muslim. If we get on a high horse, the message will be lost on the same people we are trying to convey the message to. We must not assimilate in the mainstream culture nor do we need to live in complete seclusion in the west. Besides, overzealous preaching of Islam isn’t the answer; our righteous action should speak louder than any speech. Westernized and modernity-loving Islam isn’t the answer either. We don’t need to imitate them in order to succeed in life. I think that finding the right balance and a middle ground is the best option. To each his own.

 

Salam

[Viking]

Modesty,

Imagine if the last Prophet of Allah SWT viewed human beings in the manner you do! Imagine if he told his loving uncle Abu Talib (who never took the Shahada) to piss off, what would have hapenned?

[juba]

Originally posted by Modesty:

[QB] They have no love for you, they seek to convert your children and they hope to eradicate Islam.

Your kidding right? Come on Modesty lets be realistic here because i don't think im the only one who highly doubts that!

[S.O.S]

This is indeed fascinating...

 

There are two challenges that I would like to put forward to you all who’ve opposed this article. I’m suggesting to you now; to proof that the author is wrong in his conclusion, using either religion (revelation) or science (reason) as evidence to back up and justify your opposition. It is a fact that social sciences acknowledge the influences of the socio-economic-environment as one of the most important factors which shapes and conditions every individual. It is also the case that Islam doesn’t allow muslims to live amongst disbelievers (nice people or not), and as a consequence the author has, in both cases, the support of the academic findings in the fields of social sciences, and that of the Noble Qur’aan and the Sunnah of our Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

 

So, please explain to us all; what is it exactly that you are opposing here?

 

WCWW

 

P.S. Juba, your lack of Qur'anic understanding horrifies me! In fact what you're doubting here are verses from the Qur'aan, and not merely Modesty's opinion!

[juba]

Originally posted by Shams-ud-Din:

P.S. Juba, your lack of Qur'anic understanding horrifies me! In fact what you're doubting here are verses from the Qur'aan, and not merely Modesty's opinion!

WHAT? that's in the Quran? my bad i just personally don't see that around thats all not doubting the quran.

[Viking]

Originally posted by Shams-ud-Din:

I’m suggesting to you now; to proof that the author is wrong in his conclusion, using either religion (revelation) or science (reason) as evidence to back up and justify your opposition. It is a fact that social sciences acknowledge the influences of the socio-economic-environment as one of the most important factors which shapes and conditions every individual. It is also the case that Islam doesn’t allow muslims to live amongst disbelievers (nice people or not), and as a consequence the author has, in both cases, the support of the academic findings in the fields of social sciences, and that of the Noble Qur’aan and the Sunnah of our Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

 

So, please explain to us all; what is it exactly that you are opposing here?

Shams-ud-din,

The problems of Muslims arise from the lamentable situation in their homelands, not abroad. Our scholars and intellectuals should be finding ways of deposing the despotic regimes we have back home instead of playing the blame game. The govts that represent the billion+ Muslims all over the world are corrupt, unIslamic and constantly dance to occidental tunes piped from Washington, London, Paris etc. What the author is stating is obvious, not negligible, but very obvious and any Muslim with basic knoweldge of the Deen ought to know.

 

Muslims are not allowed to live among disbelievers you say, does Islam permit Muslim leaders to opress, torture, imprison and kill innocent Muslims? What is it that has compelled Somalis to migrate to kufar lands? What makes Kurds, Iraqis etc to leave their lands where the populations are predominantly Muslim? Shouldn't these issues be taken head-on instead of constantly puss-yfooting and playing victim?

 

The author laments about how the media plays with the Muslim mind, is he unaware that even non-believers are fooled and misled by the media? The average American was made to believe that Iraq was behind 9/11, what chance do the Muslims have? Isn't it better to try and find solutions instead of whining about the apparent ailments?

[NGONGE]

Originally posted by juba:

quote:Originally posted by Shams-ud-Din:

P.S. Juba, your lack of Qur'anic understanding horrifies me! In fact what you're doubting here are verses from the Qur'aan, and not merely Modesty's opinion!

WHAT? that's in the Quran? my bad

i just personally don't see that around thats all not doubting the quran.

Is that it? You took his words as being true?

 

quote:Originally posted by Modesty:

[QB] They have no love for you, they seek to convert your children and they hope to eradicate Islam.

 

Your kidding right? Come on Modesty lets be realistic here because i don't think im the only one who highly doubts that!

The above was your question. It was a valid question. Our hasty Mullah told you off for asking it. Don't you think the least you could have done was to ask him to tell you WHERE in the quran were those exact words found?

 

PS

Shams, read my 'bad habits' thread, saaxib. It deals with your 'challange'.

[juba]

^ Well, i just assumed people wouldn't lie about what is and isn't in the Quran but i guess that's a little niave of me! You make a good point Ngonge

[NGONGE]

^^^ He didn't lie. He just answered a question that was never asked.

[S.O.S]

Ngonge, juba, please lets be reasonable here!

 

Modesty's statements are perfectly compatible with many Qur'anic verses, such as: "And they will never cease fighting you until they turn you away from your religion, if they can" (2:217). I don't have much time to list all the verses from the Qur'aan dealing with Modesty's statement, which infact consist of three parts, and I really wish you didn't waste your time with questioning my understanding of the Noble Qur'aan and that you in stead (of relying on simple openions) put some efforts in learning the Glorious Qur'aan.

 

Viking, once we agree on the governing principles regarding the Islamic rulings on living among disbelievers and understand the nature of the problem (which you do) and our individual as well as collective duties, then we can go on to the next step, which you have rightly pointed out. From there we can discuss our Islamic duties, in whose neglect, form the source of all miseries, and therefore ultimately, all responsibilities lies with us. Whatever the disbelievers do, do so because they cannot help, and Allah told us all about it, thus if they catch us off guard the blame lies with us, but we do not denie they share of causation otherwise we woun't be able to understand the problem fully if we ever want to find solutions. Dutie of emmigration is one of the central solutions, as we need not to run from our problems (danger to life) and seek protection from disbelievers (danger to faith), be patient, hold on to the teachings of the Qur'aan and the Sunnah, and solve our problems while having faith in Allah.

 

WCWW

[S.O.S]

Brother Ngonge,

 

You said that your "bad habits" thread deals with my challenge, but may I ask; how?

 

Does it proof that the single most important and academically accepted theories of environmental influences on individual's behaviour to be totally false? or, do you proof in there that the author contradicts in his conclusion, with regards the teachings of the Noble Qur'aan and the Sunnah of our Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)?

 

Call me ****** , but it doesn't deal with the challenge, therefore, the challenge still stands!

[Viking]

Shams-ud-Din,

I agree with you bro. Are the non-believers strong or are the Muslims weak? I think it is the latter but by Muslims constantly crying foul, they appear to be attesting the former to be true. If you blessed with Haq, you need not fear anything (be it media, curriculum, gotvs agenda etc.). By emigrating to kufar lands, Muslims are actually seeking protection from an internal enemy and therefore become vulnerable to external influences. This is why you see many Muslims educated in the west subconsiously (or openly) think their Islamic heritage to be somewhat inferior to the "reason-based" western ideas. We are decaying from inside out and outside in.

[S.O.S]

Brother Viking,

 

It seems the unthinkable is happening and you and I actually agree on something

 

You've correctly observed the manifestation of the general malaise which is the natural consequence of our decaying features over the last few centuries, in terms of the total indiffirence, to living true to our "testification" of unconditional acceptence and to observe all our obligatory duties as FULL muslims. This includes in all fields, such as knowledge (both reason and revelation) to apply in its subjective branches of justice, politics, social, worship, etc. but also, the moral and ethical servtitude towards Allah, when considered in both private and public sphere in establishing Allah's will (as representatives) on earth.

 

Viking brother, we need to go back to Allah and answer His call more decisively then we've done so far, otherwise, we all know that there would be a day when we're all called to answers, but it would be too late then, and neither Shaydaan nor disbelievers will constitute for us as an excuse in that Day, for we're held responsible. That's why the angels reply to those muslims who complain (that they were weak and oppressed in the lands of disbelievers) when their lives are taken; "was Allah's earth not spacious enough for you to migrate?" and they are thrown in the Hellfire!

 

WCWW

[NGONGE]

Shams,

 

Saaxib, take a very deep breath as you read these words and cleanse your heart of any anger. For this time (and this time only) I’m going to curb my natural tendency and try to be gentle with my advice.

 

The Quran is, for us Muslims, the word of Allah. We respect it, revere it and some overexcited people even kill or die if they hear a single bad word uttered against it. When we quote words and phrases as being part of the Quran we mean EXACTLY those words and phrases. We don’t mean words of a similar meaning, similar goal or close description.

 

What modesty wrote were her OWN words, but you (being human) told Juba that those were not her words but verses from the holy book! That’s the beauty of humans, we make mistakes. We will always make mistakes. I’m pretty certain that this was not an intentional mistake. However, I also am sure that most of the mistakes that are made on this section are a result of haste and excitement.

 

None of us really have to reply to threads the minute we read them. If you know (and I’m not talking to Shams alone here) that you’re the type that easily loses his/her cool then it is better that you take your time when you read any posts on SOL. It’s even much better if you give it some time before replying.

 

I know that I personally could have replied to you straightaway and made all sorts of wild accusations, saaxib. But, I also know that most of it would get us nowhere and I’d be as wrong and hasty as you were (these words are said in the most temperate way you could think of).

 

As for the topic and your challenge, I suggested that you read my ‘bad habits’ thread because I believe I was addressing the same problems there. I don’t think such bad habits are limited to living in the Western world. People pick bad habits EVERYWHERE.

 

Still, my opposition to the article was not in its intention. I don’t at all doubt the author’s intentions. Like you, I also believe he meant well. I however, totally disagree with his tone and attitude. It’s very patronising, paranoid and weak. He assumes that his readers are half-wits that require scare-mongering and harsh words in order to realise that they live in non-Muslim lands and that some of the practices of the people of these lands are not compatible with Islam!

 

It is not a matter of knowledge, experience or intelligence. In fact, it’s not even about being right or wrong. It’s all about attitude and delivery. In all of my replies on Islamic matters, I always try to avoid quoting verses from the Quran or throwing about random ahadeeth. It’s not because I can’t, don’t know any or are not able to fit them into my arguments. I don’t do it because I’d rather use my own words and make mistakes on those alone instead of misleading others by using a verse or hadeeth out of context.

 

On the odd occasions that I use those sources, I still don’t quote any. Rather, I hint and refer the reader to a story, occasion or situation that would lead him/her to the hadeeth or verse I have in mind. This (one hopes) will allow him/her to go and read it in it’s correct context (should he/she decide to take it out of context, it is their mistake and not mine).

 

On this occasion, I shall invite you all to go read the Almighty's words when sending Nabi Musa to speak to the wicked pharaoh. While you’re at it, read the story of Nabi Musa and Alkhadar. Observe the interaction, check out the haste (of a Nabi no less!) and see the importance of patience. See how not all things are the way they seem to be at first sight and see how sometimes those you deem less knowledgeable than you might turn out to know much more than you do! (For the avoidance of doubt, I am not talking about myself or any single person on SOL here. This is general).

 

Islam is an easy faith. It’s not rigid, harsh or unkind. When it first arrived, it was delivered in the most benevolent of ways and that is how it always continued. To turn it into an angry, confrontational and hostile faith now will mislead many and repel most. Softening one’s words does not mean softening one’s principles. On the other hand, constant aggression and harshness is most likely to eventually erode on one’s values. For hasty words and hasty actions are rarely ever wise and reasonable.

 

 

I also invite you to reacquaint yourself with the verses below.

 

Surat Al Naxal (125 to 127)

Surat Aal Cumran (159)

[S.O.S]

Dear brother Ngonge,

 

If one needs to calm down, then it is propably you, but since you've stepped down from your initial criticism on the content of the article (i.e. your opposition to emmigrating from the lands of disbelievers to the lands of muslims), to one which is limited to the style and sentiments of the piece, then we must not waste our time here for two reasons; 1) I'm not a literary critic and 2) came into this discussion to defend the content of the article.

 

You're just being silly here if you believe that one can only deny aayaats/verses only if quoted in exact phrases (or in its original arabic phrase for that matter), and that it is NOT a denial or a crime against you if you do deny in translation, interpretation or meaning (or whatever way the orator, narator, author, etc. puts it as long the meaning is correct and you're made aware of). If that was your position, then I kindly request you to recosider that understanding. Neither did I ever referred to Modesty's statements as exact phrases nor did she, but it was you who decided to dismiss, because a) you was not aware of any verses in the Qur'aan with the same meaning, b) you was aware but inconvenient to your arguments or c) a lttle bit of both or d) you think it's a good thing to doubt the meaning of the Qur'aan (only Allah knows your intentions). To elaborate more on this issue so we can all understand, imagine the following:

 

mr A says to mr B; "there's a day of judgement"

mr B says; "I doubt that", on which mr A replies; "you're doubting the verses from the Qur'aan"

 

So what do you think mr Ngonge? did he or did he not?

 

One advise though, if you are ever in a position to relate anything you say here on SOL to verses from the Qur'aan or axaadiiths from the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), the please, please, please reffer them to us instead of using your own words, for indeed "fa'inna axsanal kalaamu kitaabul-Laah" (the best speach is that of the book of Allah) and His Messenger doesn't speak from his own desire, but is "waxyun yuuxaa" (devine inspiration), of which both will be of greater benefit to us when you inform us of than expressed in your own words. We don't ever want to risk denying Allah and His Messenger (be it even unknowingly) whatever the justification we convince ourselves may be!

 

WCWW

 

P.S. Jazaakal-Laah for your advice to read the verses, I will insha'Allah.