Would we the Muslims be happier in an Islamic State?

[Khalaf]

What do you think? What do you envision when you think about an islamic state? Do the Muslims (ie you) prefer living in the states, Europe, ect? What would happen to ipods, tvs, music, movies all the things we enjoy? Your thoughts people.

[Naden]

What do you envision an Islamic state doing to ipods, tvs, music, and movies?

[N.O.R.F]

What do you envision when you think about an islamic state?

A knowledgeable and just ruler.

 

But let us put some rules in place first shall we?

 

The main one being that of recognising Sheria laws are NOT currently fully in use in Muslim countries (including KSA and Iran).

 

As for ipods, Tvs, Movies etc, I just dont get what your aiming at here.

 

I saw an enjoyable movie last night based on three Arabs taking a road trip. Two of them were very religious, the other was not. Discussions on many things took place during this road trip. An enjoyable movie on the Sharjah TV channel. I also saw Die Hard 4.0 this weekend which to me was just a bit of entertainment. One should use 'his' time well i know laakin ristrictions shouldnt be in place so long as the movies are screened/edited.

[Khalaf]

Originally posted by Naden:

What do you envision an

Islamic

state doing to ipods, tvs, music, and movies?

Well one thing is for sure, the current programs (MTV, BET and the like) we are used to wouldn’t be allowed. The Islamic state is not a police state that dicatates what people can and can not do however. For example the Muslim’s in Madinah after the Prophet scw trained them in Aqeedah, they had no problems saying we hear and we obey what we were commanded. An entire community for example has abandoned what their nafs desired and were used to for generations, something no secular laws or any other laws can not do. The Power of Islam. Although there will always be cases to the contrary, but Madinah I believe is a great lesson on how an Islamic State and Community is to be built.

 

North

 

A knowledgeable and just ruler.

Also, there is a Hadith that says (paraphrasing here and Allah Knows Best), that he is not of the Sunnah of Muhammad scw and is to be rejected he who seeks power/office, and desires to rule. Therefore running for office in Islamic Country or crowning yourself or group as rulers is not allowed in Islam, but the people choose and give allegiance (bay'ah) to the best leader whom is on the path of the Quran and Sunnah. This is the tradition of the Prophet Scw and Companions ra.

 

But let us put some rules in place first shall we?

 

The main one being that of recognising Sheria laws are NOT currently fully in use in Muslim countries (including KSA and Iran).

The Muslim societies are for one full of corruption and jahiliya practices, our hearts are diseased. Then there is the corrupt dictatorship rulers and the status quo of the world order. Knowing this what concrete (workable) rules can be put into place by the masses? Shhhh is deep no doubt.

 

As for ipods, Tvs, Movies etc, I just dont get what your aiming at here.

There are contrasting verdicts of the ulama on issues such as this. For example tv, movies, pictures, music is considered haram according to some madhabs, but ahhh soso to others. Just thinking about issues such as this, it shows how vastly divided (into sects, madhabs) the Ummah really is and how far we are from unity and Islamic statehood. And Allah Knows Best.

[xiinfaniin]

Originally posted by Khalaf:

Also, there is a Hadith that says (paraphrasing here and Allah Knows Best), that he is not of the Sunnah of Muhammad scw and is to be rejected he who seeks power/office, and desires to rule.

Therefore running for office in Islamic Country or crowning yourself or group as rulers is not allowed in Islam

, but the people choose and give allegiance (bay'ah) to the best leader whom is on the path of the Quran and Sunnah. This is the tradition of the Prophet Scw and Companions ra.

^^Khalafow, must you be that hasty in dolling out such a far-reaching fatwa adeer? I find the story of Yusuf to be the proper guidance for the political affairs of our time! Its chief moral lesson, if you remember, was that when the leaders rule unjustly and deny correct authority to be established in Allah’s land those who are able and have the adequate capacity to lead should assert their rightful claim on the question of Immaarah. Political formats that allow the emergence of such leaders could vary but you should not quote, quite casually, prophetic traditions without properly considering its honorable intentions. Given the vast spread of fasaad in Allah’s arli today, for Allah-fearing Muslims to contest and seek the position of leadership of thier community is paramount. I am responsible and skillful in governing! Said Yusuf (csw). And that, my good brother, merited his rule. And that must be the base line for any Muslim who seeks to lead his community/nation/Ummah!

[Kashafa]

Salaams Xiin, ayaantaan waalagu waayay....Very interesting that you brought up Prophet Yusuf(AS), I used him as an example during a discussion about political participation in non-Islamic systems. Like say running for Senator or MP. Correct me if I'm wrong, laakin Nabi Yusuf not only nominated himself, but also became what's known today as the Prime Minister of a pagan, multi-god worshipping nation(Ancient Egypt)

 

Does that not pave the way, and provide an example, for Muslims living in the West to participate more fully in running their societies and affect change thru whatever system of governance there is ? What do you think ?

 

Sorry for the slight hijack, Khalaf...I think it's related to the topic.

[xiinfaniin]

^^Kashafow, I agree with you on that adeer.

 

I would go even further and say, in my opinion, participation in the system of governance in the west is no (at least it should not be) longer a matter of theological debate---it passed way beyond that stage. Today it’s considered the only practical course for those Muslims who called the West home. You did have to be in Minnesota to see the enthusiasm and excitement one ‘electable’ Muslim candidate created. And when he actually got elelcted by a wide margin, that Muslim congress of Minnesota and his election was transformed into a matter of pride. The expectations of what he can do in a place dominated by seasoned politicians and entrenched interest groups are very minimal. But, from a maqaasidu al-Shariicah stand point, it serves for a clear maslaxa to have a voice in there.

 

Ps—adeer waan safray oo haddaan soo noqday!

[Khalaf]

Brothers, I don’t understand nor do I see any correlation between the Prophet Yusuf scw and the example you gave of Muslim Politicians in the West. Its simple as this did the Prophet Yusuf scw uphold the laws of Pharaoh and the laws of ancient Egypt that existed or the laws of Allah subhana wa ta'ala? There is no connection sxbyal, since Sen. Keith Ellison or other Muslim Politicians in the West will be legislating/upholding the laws of Uncle Sam or the Queen of England. What do you then make of that? I agree with you however not only is it paramount, but an Islamic obligation for the Muslims to be active forces for change in their countries just as the companions ra had, again there is a certain method applied here also. But that was not the point of my earlier statement which was quoted. The Prophet scw forbade people seeking authority or desiring authority and leadership, as it is something that corrupts the individual. People competing with each other for leadership, status, wanting position and selling their agendas to the people often involving oaths which are not met, lies and deceit the methods employed in the Western Political Systems namely “democracy” is not the methodology of Allah’s Messenger. There are have been several hadiths on the subject matter here is just two:.

 

Allah's Apostle said, "O 'Abdur-Rahman bin Samura! Do not seek to be a ruler, for if you are given authority on your demand, you will be held responsible for it, but if you are given it without asking for it, then you will be helped (by Allah) in it. If you ever take an oath to do something and later on you find that something else is better, then do what is better and make expiation for your oath."

 

Narrated Abu Musa:

Two men from my tribe and I entered upon the Prophet. One of the two men said to the Prophet, "O Allah's Apostle! Appoint me as a governor," and so did the second. The Prophet said, "We do not assign the authority of ruling to those who ask for it, nor to those who are keen to have it."

 

Related by Bukhari,

 

Rather the Islamic methodology has been one of shuraa or mutual consultation of the community, the people give bayah to a leader of knowledge, piety and good character. The early Khalifat ra and the history of Umar ibn Abdul Aziz ra highlight this aspect of the Islamic system. And Allah Knows Best.

[N.O.R.F]

Dlt

[xiinfaniin]

Khalaf posted: Narrated Abu Musa:

Two men from my tribe and I entered upon the Prophet. One of the two men said to the Prophet, "O Allah's Apostle! Appoint me as a governor," and so did the second. The Prophet said, "We do not assign the authority of ruling to those who ask for it, nor to those who are keen to have it."

 

^^A very good xaddiith! Now i want you to sacrifice some of your precious time and efforts in reading the take of Culumaa on this Xadiith. Then we have a good discussion yaa Khalaf!

 

And BTW the story of Yusuf has something to do with masalaah adeer. But lets concentrate the tradition you quoted first.

[Khalaf]

^^^With due respect adeero, miyaad hadana ciyal iga diigaysa? ...........I repeated above what i learned from my teachers on the part you quoted. What seems to be your contention marka from what I have said on seeking/desiring power ect? The floor is all yours hadaba.

[xiinfaniin]

^^Khalaf, caruur kaama dhigin ee adaa khalad u fahmay qoraalkaygii! Keliya waxaan rabay inaad dhexgasho sharraxaadii culumadu xaddiith kaa ka bixiyeen. waxaad meesha ku soo post garaysay waa uun matni-gii xaddiithka adeer, and that makes your effort quite pregnant, ka fooli bahasha ninyahow...

[Khalaf]

Adeer this is an important discussion overall, and it would be nice if the other brother's joined in on the topic. North is lost for words? I mentioned what i learned from my studies and teachers on that particular area therefore I will only be repeating myself, there have been many books written on the subject also. And Allah Knows Best.

[Aaliyyah]

In ideal world islamic state would certainly be my option. However, I fail to see what islamic state has to do with Ipod, movies, and so on an so forth. I consider it would be awesome to have a islamic state, but we should still be entitled for our personal choices.An islamic government deosn't have any rights to decide what we should watch or listen to. Ofcourse, it is good to have an islamic state which encourages all of us to make the best choices, bt it is not allowed in our religion to force anyone, so forcing is out of the question.

 

I can't live without my Ipod, so khalaf I am not so eager for your type of islamic state

 

 

 

wa salaamu alaikum

[Khalaf]

Aaliyah.....i have an ipod also no music though, i no longer listen to music like i used to in HS...lakiin still when i hear Pac, Nas, Jay gets me hype namean. And like everyone else movies, MTV, BET and stuff like that which is not so halal.....even my grandma's enjoys shows like bigbrother .... My point therefore was we are as Muslims in the West one way or another have taken up the "pop culture" of our host countries and in some way's enjoy it. Would we then enjoy it if our state of affairs was ruled only by the Quran and Sunnah? Would you find that oppressive? Do you think MTV, BET, heeso somaliyeed, Maryan Mursal concerts would be allowed? An Islamic state is like any other state with rules and laws you are entitled to personal choice but still there will be laws to obey just as you obey the laws of T.dot. What do you think marka?