Can A Woman Become A Head Of An Islamic State?

[Johnny B]

^ It´d be a waste of time and brain enegry to have read Scarlet´s post and miss the intellectual remarks she made. the way she intellectually brought her points forward yet faded back in the rear of the thread to let the contention point of the subject matter continue on a "scholar Castro RA said so and scholar Ngonge RA said si" level.

ans last but not least Scholar [fill in any woman name] is feminist

 

Blessed, you don´t wanna me let the guard of my sanity off and let demons reside in my virgin mind do you?

 

Women,Muslim or not are too wonderful to be belittled and Scarlet as a person is a highly respected sister in JB´s circles.

[Blessed]

^Who is hiding behind Scarlets skirt now?

 

Scarlet, did make some very good points, in fact she is the only one in this topic that I fully agree with. If I had problem with what she wrote, I would have addressed her, not you. Scarlet also said that her comment was off topic. It is, and the issues she's raised need a thread of their own.

 

As for you JB, you don't know what your talking about, your comment about Aisha and the battle of the Camel showed you up.

[Khayr]

Salamun caliykum

 

Blessed,

 

I seem to recall your involvement in a another thread titled 'somali female president'.....

 

In Anycase, the 'American Muslim Women's League' aka the site that you gave reference to is a rather well funded site.

 

Here is their view on Muslim women leading prayer from that site

Women Leading Prayer: Muslims do not have a clergy. Any knowledgeable, respected Muslim is qualified to perform our important socio-religious tasks such as leading prayer or officiating a wedding. It was, however, not customary for women to lead prayer during the Prophet’s time, but we believe it is important to ask whether this was a reflection of custom or religious edict. In our paper on the participation of women in politics and leadership the MWL reviews the literature on the subject and concludes that, based on the Qur’an and authentic traditions of the Prophet, it is not forbidden (haram) for a woman to lead a mixed congregation in prayer . (see

http://mwlusa.org/publications/essays/polirights.html)

Some would say in fact that it is allowed (but whether or not it is recommended may be debated.)

The Qur’an is completely silent on the matter of women leading prayer, and there is one example, as cited in the Traditions compiled by Abu Dawud, where Prophet Muhammed instructed Umm Waraqa bint Abdullah to lead her household and its environs (which included at least one man) in prayer because she had the best knowledge of the Qur’an in her community.

MWL

 

 

They also use Fatima Mernissi , Morrocon author, professor and researcher for citation

Traditionally, an aspect of leadership in Islam is the ability of the leader to lead the Muslims in prayer, i.e. act as the imam.

(Fatima Mernissi, The Forgotten Queens of Islam, University of Minnesota Press, 1993, p. 32).

Some argue that women cannot hold positions of leadership because women cannot lead men in prayer.

(Fatima Mernissi, The Forgotten Queens of Islam, University of Minnesota Press, 1993, p. 32). However, this argument requires two assumptions which may be invalid. First, one must assume that the leader himself or herself is obligated to lead prayer. Second, one must assume that women cannot lead men in prayer.

More to be said but I have to run....

 

Fi Amanillah

[Johnny B]

Blessed, You´re right , i never heard of any battle of Camels or goats, and i don´t know the significance of that battle for women rights in Islam.

You´re not implying that i´d to have heard about some battles to know why women are deprived some rights, are ya?

That a woman is not allowed to lead is fine with me if the justification is aa "Allah says so", then it is a matter of have a faith or leave it, but when it is rationalized it´s then it comes off as an insult to my intelligence.

 

As for Scarlet´s skirt, i guess it is huge enough for both of us , i sense that you´ve missed in my earlier post where i´ve accounted for why i made the sarcastic comment and what i see in the thread.

[Didi Kong]

I noticed someone mentioned Fatima Mernissi a Moroccan feminist who grew up in a harem (her views are strongly influenced by this experience). Although she does provide a differing perspective I wouldn't recommend anyone make references to the work of a woman who calls the companions of the prophet (saw) names. Leadership in Islam is very complex and is open to ijtihad (the prophet has not left any clear and concise evidence as to how to approach it)so we have to go beyond quraan and sunnah. The hadith of Abu Bakra is the only source in the traditions that can be used as an explicit evidence in the issue of women and leadership. It clearly implies that any nation that puts a woman in the position of a chief executive will never prosper. This might have a lot of implications. Even if the hadith meant such there is always the legislative(women can be mujtahideen) and the judiciary (women can be judges) and I believe this has a greater scope in terms of leadership and influence. Other traditions also mention no one (man/woman) should aspire to be in a such a position(leader as in chief executive). it is also noteworthy to mention that the khulafaa and the other pious muslims rulers always ran away from being saddled with such a huge responsibility as being the leaders of nations.

[Didi Kong]

ps. Fatima Mernissi, Leila Ahmed and Amina Wadud etc. etc. espouse the same opinions...any one that takes these women seriously will be asking why women can't lead the salah next.

[xiinfaniin]

Nurow, though it seems that I’ve deserted you in your hour of need, still you’ve comfortably seized the truth of this issue saaxiib. With all my anticipation of it, I’ve somehow missed this tread. No matter. I like the way it is. Before I take up some germane points raised here, let me do some basic housekeeping and say a word or two to our confused bro JB, not that I want to read him the riot act, but to remind him that he is due for one .

 

Adeer JB listen to me; to take a leap from the tallest building in the town, and still hope for safe landing is overly brainless, and not a calculated risk-taking, do you not agree? If it is the fame that you desire to show us your head every time an intellectually-stimulating and thought-provoking religious article comes up, as this thread is indeed one, then it is the infamy you get as there is no good repute to win from trolling! If you feel of being marginalized by the ‘mullahs’ of this site, however, and want to fight for the subverted logic’s glory, and be there, as it were, for the martyrdoms dual, then you need to work on your thesis saaxiib. This discussion is about the legal soundness of abubakar’s hadiith and its jurisprudential significance, and as such it has a very distinct boundary (read: only religious views have relevance in this discussion) around it, and to see you roam in this part of the fence is quite comical. We are not even talking about metaphysics stuff, for Allah’s sake, for you to be even tempted to plug your logic in! Waa kukaa adeer.

 

Scarlet sister, you have raised very relevant points. Our priorities should be to tackle the problems that are persistent in our communities and we should not waste our time discussing hypothetical issues. I hear you laud and clear. But this is a clarification thread that our gifted brother intended it as a public record on this issue. It is Nur’s qawlu a-jadiid, if you will, and it overrides his qawl al qaddiim. The whole leadership issue in Islam is not about breaking the eggs to make the omelette thing as some would like to have us believe. Islam does not take away rights to establish others. It is a matter of understanding the wisdom of the lawgiver. Muslim’s attitude should be to submit first and ask latter. If it is the law it must remain as such.

 

Amelia, my wise sister, you are not the Young Turk, so to speak, (or are you ?), in this discussion and if you do a little proofread on your post you might easily see the error in your argument. It seems to me that you are banking on the impeachability of abubakra’s integrity and the reliability of his character to scoff the legal consequence of this haddiith. That’s a weak armor, good sister, and for two reasons. First, abubakra is a sahaabi to begin with, and for that only his integrity and character should be upheld to a high regard for all of us. After all he is a companion of our beloved prophet. Second, this particular narration of his is in Bukhari, a collection whose soundness and validity is agreed, and that means it had passed unscathed through the rigorous criteria of accepting hadith as the science of jarhi wa ta’diil requires.

 

The second part of your argument (actually it is the question you posed) has some meet on it, and hence, it could be fruitful to indulge you in that aspect of this discussion. What does this haddiith signify? What is the legal consequence of its ruling? How high a woman can rise in the domain of leadership as decreed by the shariicah? Could she be a minister, a judge, or an army general? Instead of challenging the integrity of the companion or the authenticity of the haddiith (which is implicit in that argument), questions along those lines, I think, are better suited for discussion.

 

I will come back and contribute more, IA.

[Pi]

Khalaf and Nur: I stand corrected. My position is that of Shaykh Gabriil Foud Haddad. I didnt know too much about Fatima.

[-Serenity-]

Gentlemen, you havent really provided any refutation with regards to my query on the hadeeth (Biggin up the rep of Abu Bakrah doesnt count as one @Khayr). Besides the baseless and quite frankly half-witted character assasination of Mernissi, do we have anything else on the table? Its quite clear, that there is grounds for doubt, and I dont see anyone proving the contrary (it would be nice if you guys could interject some logic, commonsense and pragmatism while you're at it).

[Pi]

Amelia, it all comes down to one ground rule: is a Companion fair game?

[xiinfaniin]

^^And this discussion needs not move forward without agreeing its rules.

 

A companion is not a fair game. I say. What say you good Amelia?

[Jacpher]

No, what it boils down to is that if a woman can lead a prayer since Muslim leaders have the responsibility of leading prayers especially in congregational prayers like Juma and Eid.

[-Serenity-]

What you say Xiin.. is just that.

 

Who is considered a companion?

 

A Companion is

anyone

, man or woman, who met the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)—whether for a short or long period—and who died while still Muslim. Many of the Companions were relatives, wives, servants, or close friends of the Prophet. The details of the Prophet’s life—including his words, deeds, and reactions to events—have been handed down to us through the Companions. These accounts form the collection of Hadiths from which we derive the Sunnah, which is the second basis of Islamic law after the Qur’an.

 

Source

Keeping that in mind, the companions narrated about 600 thousand hadeeths of which more than 590 thousand were discarded. Are you telling me questioning a hadeeth by a companion isn't 'fair' game? I'll let you ponder that good Xiin. This isn’t about belittling the companions of the prophet, but getting to the bottom of a hadeeth that is used and abused and has become an insurmountable obstacle in the path of muslimah's becoming equal participants in the societies they live in and to the overall stagnation in Muslim countries. And may I add 'a stand-alone' hadeeth at that.

 

The collators of hadeeth used scientific, stringent and reasoned basis for selecting hadeeth. If someone uses the same logical basis to re-examine a hadeeth, I see no problems with it. Its so sad that those ways are lost in today's Muslims and they are content in being passive consumers living off utopian ideas and on the glory of the past because the present is just too miserable.

[-Serenity-]

Originally posted by Jimcaale:

No, what it boils down to is that if a woman can lead a prayer since Muslim leaders have the responsibility of leading prayers especially in congregational prayers like Juma and Eid.

I think we need to clarify what we are debating here... because I see a clear distinction, for example, between presidency and the position of Amir al-Muminin in an Islamic state. As you're all probably aware, being able to lead a congregation in prayer is not in the job description of the president of Somalia, Egypt, Tunisia, etc etc etc... most of the Muslim countries. Infact, I often notice them standing behind an Imam on the rare occasions they are seeing praying! So I see no connection between leading prayers and being a president or a prime ministers or for that matter, being involved in policy making, which is a line of work that I would never accept should be reserved for men (sorry.. but no1 is barring me from driving or telling me how to dress...certainly not a bunch guys who it doesn’t impact)

[xiinfaniin]

^What I am telling you is that the character and the integrity of a companion is not a fair game. Those hadiths, and many more, were rejected not on the basis of an unreliable character of a sahaabi, but for other relevant reasons walaal. Every chain in each hadith is weighed against very stringent rules before it is accepted or rejected. I am not aware a single hadith that’s rejected because it was narrated by a sahabi whose integrity was questionable.

 

It does not need pondering walaal. Or does it? Tell me one without falling in to Ms. Mernisi’s trap! Ms. Mernisi is not using the same rules but she is supverting them to fix a mere inconvenience of hers. Infact she is not respecting processes, standards, and jurispudentail derivations to exact a ruling. Hers a doomed insurgency.

 

There are many ways to discuss and even object the legal verdict of a hadith. Disqualifying the sahabi who reported it is not one of them, my good sister.