Can A Woman Become A Head Of An Islamic State?

[Pi]

Ok. So you're saying a woman can become a modern day president or prime minister, because modern day leaders are not required to lead prayers. Hmmm, I guess there is room for different opinions on that, but we can agree on one thing: actual Islamic Caliphate is the territory of the "male elite".

[-Serenity-]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

Those hadiths, and many more, were rejected

not on the basis of an unreliable character

of a sahaabi, but for other relevant reasons walaal.

If my memory serves me right, that’s the exact reason a lot of hadeeth were rejected Xiin - on the questionable character of transmitters. Infact, people with questionable characters or self-interest in their transmissions were dismissed - whether they have come across the prophet or not. Not the mention, Bukhari cross examined almost all of the hadeeth and only accepted a hadeeth that was narrated from more than one person as people were fabricating hadeeth left right and centre to suit them. Again, refer to the definition of a companion and you'll see how its impractical to say that every companion was a saint. Maybe Nur can shed light on this subject as he seems to know the science of hadeeth better. I'm in no way attacking the character of Abu Bakra (I actually merely regurgitated what I read on the subject for someone to shed some light - Alas, no1 did) and maybe instead of focusing on the character of the transmitter, we can move this debate forward and discuss the hadeeth’s applicability.

 

Thanks.

[-Serenity-]

Originally posted by Pi:

Islamic Caliphate is the territory of the "male elite".

Thats just one position.... but as you can follow from the line of argument Nur was making, he excluded women from all political participation (using this hadeeth) and confined them to house and the intellectually-stimulating position of a 'husband's advisor'. .

[xiinfaniin]

Amelia, you seem to be objecting on the ruling of this particular haddiith on the basis of abubkra’s character/motives. But you can’t quite say so! We are not talking about any haddiith. We are talking about this particular haddiith. This one is a sahiih.

 

You see sister, goals don’t justify the means in my books. Granted that you like to challenge the legal consequence of this haddiith but you can’t present your argument credibly if you endorse Ms. Mernisi’s methods of blackmailing the companion of Muhhamad to advance what she thinks a just cause. Let me end this circular reasoning of yours by saying this hadith is sahiih. One needs to study the methods of collecting and accepting hadith to absorb what that rank entails. Traditional thought of this hadith conclusively ruled that it is inadmissible for a muslimah to hold the highest position of leadership for the Muslim Ummah. I agree with that, and so do number of people here who expressed themselves.

 

For those who disagree from an Islmamic perspective, please make sure you think Islamicly when you formulate your proofs….and don’t even attempt impeaching a companion’s integrity!

 

War yaa kaloo raba inuu na xukumo ?

[-Serenity-]

^ Xiin, no lie has been said about the companion... so the claim of character assassination is half-baked. Facts remain facts unless u can prove them otherwise! Whether you want to overlook it, doubt it, question it or what not is a choice anyone can make.

 

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

War yaa kaloo raba inuu na xukumo

?

Everything about Somalia is reminiscent of pre-Islamic Arabia… warring tribal factions, tribalism, myths, lots of personal agenda and no common goal. At this stage, you should be grateful to anyone to pull us from the dark ages (specially a woman, cuz clearly the men are 'doomed to fail'). Islam saved them... I hope it saves us too - minus the patriarchy disguised as law, of course .

[Legend of Zu]

Originally posted by Amelia:

no

lie

has been said about the companion... so the claim of character assassination is half-baked. Facts remain facts unless u can prove them otherwise! Whether you want to overlook it, doubt it, question it or what not is a choice anyone can make.

Oooh No..You didn't go there!..Companions of the Prophet are off limit...regardless of what seems logic to you...simple as that...yes I'm dismissing your argument with a flick of a hand -just like that - read below

 

However, You can challenge the legal ramifications of this xadiith whether it is sahiih or not. there are times hadiiths are rejected (in legal terms) altho they are sahiih.

 

Now go back to the drawingboard and re-strategise Perhaps then you will get many of who will agree with you principaly but disagree with your current approach.

 

Will come back later.

 

Cheers

[-Serenity-]

^

 

Discussing the background and history of the companions is 'off limit' miyaa? Okkky Zu!!!

 

The point of this debate, anyway, was the ruling.

 

And G'nite.

[Didi Kong]

to the best of my knowledge it's not Mernissi who debunks Abu Bakra's hadith due to his character (she is too busy recounting her experiences at the harem) but Khaled Abou El Fadl a secularist who is neither a scholar nor an authority over anything. He claims that Abu Bakra's verdict should not be accepted due to his being flogged for bearing false witness during the caliphate of Umar. Credible character is a prerequisite for narrating ahadith no doubt. But who are his sources? Perhaps the rafidis? Instead of half-wittedly playing the rebel without cause perhaps those who claim this hadith is not sahih should bring their proofs from credible sources and show everyone why it is weak and then we can all join the ranks of the secular feminists happily.

[-Serenity-]

Originally posted by Didi Kong:

Instead of half-wittedly playing the rebel without cause perhaps those who claim this hadith is not sahih should bring their proofs from credible sources and show everyone why it is weak and then we can all join the ranks of the secular feminists happily

Before all of that, perhaps you can grow some balls (metaphorically) and address me directly instead of 'half-wittedly' throwing that 'secular feminist' placard and referring to me indirectly? :rolleyes:

[xiinfaniin]

^^Wallee caawa Amelia waa dhaarsantahay. I thoughtt you siad G'Nite, to which i said amen .

 

G'Nite all... and i mean it.

[Didi Kong]

Whatever! Now you can only count on debunking this hadith through it's applicability. Good luck!

[Didi Kong]

I must have missed Haddad's article but I agree with it and it does absolve Abu Bakra's character.

[Salafi_Online]

Salamu alaykum

 

 

It truly offends the intellect to perceive a person who needs the permission of A Wali to travel, to perform voluntary fast,to marry and other responsibilities enshrine by Al-Caziz would order her husband or father or a stranger she cant mix with. Ya3ani imagine her father or husband obeying the one they have commanding rights over????

 

As for our shaykh, Abu Bakrah, this little stripling in knowledge doesn’t ever give one reference as to why the isnad is defect. NOT ONE. There is Ij'ma(consensus) of every scholar in hadith, that the hadith is authentic.

[Valenteenah.]

Originally posted by Salafi da'wa:

It truly offends the intellect to perceive a person who needs the permission of A Wali to travel, to perform voluntary fast,to marry and other responsibilities enshrine by Al-Caziz would order her husband or father or a stranger she cant mix with. Ya3ani imagine her father or husband obeying the one they have commanding rights over????

^^ And there is the crux of the matter. A woman (a slave in all but name) ruling over free men! Ha ha...what a good joke. *Chuckles*

[Nur]

Ahura

 

Matters of faith are not to be taken as a joke, if you are not Muslim, I can understand, however it would be advisable that you respect the faith, if you believe that you are a Muslim, with such statments as to mock islamic rulings of Waliyy and Mahram for the women, then I suggest that you take a good look of your choices, you may be in for a surprise after you die, it was reported that men who made a mockery about Muslim Quraan readers by saying that they have big bellies and are not good in fighting, where declared Kuffar by Allah " Do not apologise, You have turned kuffar after your iman"

 

Islam is surrender to a higher authority, more powerful than authorities you live under who can pass any law they like regardless of what you like, Islam is also a form of slavery, men and women are slaves for Allah, by choice that is, not to fellow man though or to fashion designers, but to Allah alone, , Womens place in Islam is set by Quraan and Sunnah, Its mainly home related and child rearing, if you have any evidence to the opposite and that the idea of Mahram is laughable, please share with us, but save your self the trouble of living on the edge, I assure you that you can laugh now, or you can laugh later, but not both times.

 

Nur