Now what ?

[Gediid]

Xassan,Bari Nomad

 

I think we are now getting somewhere on this issue.We in Somaliland all along believed the best way to approach this issue is through peaceful means.Unlike the administration in Puntland whose very aim is to suppress the wishes of the people.We are willing to consider and respect the wishes of the people of Las Qoray,Badhan,Hadaftimo in Sanaag and Las Anod in Sool.Whatever they decide we will respect.But the burning question is will Abdilaahi Yusuf who we all know do the same if these people decide they want to be part of Somaliland.

Will Abdillahi Yusuf and his militia be willing to hold a referandum to determine who they wish to be part of.Will you guys be willing to even consider seeing these regions say YES to Somaliland and NO to Puntland.

Would you be willing to settle this issue in a civilized manner. If your answer is yes then lets hold a referandum.PERDIOD

[Baashi]

I noticed the way the words of arguments are structured is to make it impossible to question whether what we are being told about “Somaliland’ is really true…or the legitimacy of its claim of secession. Those of us who questioned “Somaliland” were accused of jealousy, envy, and what not…or we heard such responses like’ we don’t want u …can’t u read my lips’.

 

We are just exchanging our views on this issue and perhaps how we justify these views…after all this is a forum. Hadde lama diririn. If I hear Lander correctly, I heard classical secessionist argument…I swear it amounts to tautology and at times logical fallacy. It goes like this:

a) Nomads never had unifying political representation before 1960. True statement.

b) We, Somalilanders as independent state, with our own will, decided to unite with the South Somalia. Again true statement…if we define Somalilanders as entity represented by two political parties USP (Sool, Buuhoodle, Part of Sanaag, and Awdal) and SNL (W/Galbeed, Togdheer, and part of Sanaag)…and with their signature the ‘Act of Union’ is sealed indefinitely.

c) With the collapse of the central state and resulted anarchy, Nomads are back to square one. questionable statement in the legal sense…fall of a government doesn’t absolve its previous borders…To constitute new ones without the consent of all parties involved will be against all known international rules.

 

Now if we take that as unquestionable historical facts, secessionist logic doesn’t hold water…Nomads being back to square one would not adhere or recognize to any colonial borders. Every tribe would own up its area of influence and without their consent any new claim would amount nothing less of coercion.

 

Even if we presume wrongly that the rest of Somalia is irrelevant to the question of secession, North is very relevant. Unless u assume you hold a veto to the wishes of other parties, you can only decide for your neck of the wood. Remember that What's Good for the Goose is Good for the Gander.

 

Now don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying let’s unite now as that is very difficult to do now anyway. What I’m saying is that what’s at work is propaganda to energize the people of that region to a cause that is very difficult to achieve and perhaps dangerous. It is a balkanization of the horn of Africa. And as Hitler and every other politician after him realized propaganda works: If you tell a lie long enough and loud enough people will believe it.

 

Gediid,

No u are not respecting the wishes of regions u mentioned. They decide for themselves...Puntland is their destiny untill central state comes to being.

[Macalin]

Bari Nomad i like your ANOLOGY!

 

Ameenah..you are one LEVEL headed 's/LEEN'..lol(am following ur advice here-read carefully)

 

As for the others:

, meeqa jeera aa iin sheegeena...You cant break away, where your central GOVT is in shambles>give up yaqee(Mogadishu has to approve YOU-(alla)) meeqa jeera aa iin sheegeena...You cant break away, where your central GOVT is in shambles>give up yaqee

 

When the rest of the WORLD is GOING for GLOBAL unity you guys are tryna bring ANIMOSITY,DIVISION and what not...the new world ORDEr is...UNITY..give it up my sons of that noble LAND!..this one battle is sure you gonna LOOSE again.

 

salaam aleykuuuuum

[SUBURBAN]

Now what indeed. good quetion Libax ST. Alxamdulillah the brave ppl of somaliland have managed to establish an oasis, which all nomads benefit from despite what the knockers and wreckers try to do. i believe the next struggle should be a campaign for the introduction of islamic laws and institutions, starting with a fight against corruption and khat abuse. till when this is done, the campaing for recognition should take a back seat. my alarm bell rings when i hear the present politicians utter the words 'world bank' and IMF. just like Taiwan, we do not anybody's recognition just hard work insha-Allah we can do it.

 

somaliland is not perfect yet, but for ppl who stood up agaist the previous the regime i say thanks and you can hold your heads high, you won both the war and the peace.

 

the borders of somaliland are the same as the ones before the union of 1960. the same outsiders who preach 'shanta somali' gospel are the ones playing dumb about these boundries. Djibouti tried that game a dacade ago and got good spanking for it.

 

as for anyone who has a case against president Dahir Riyale can go to the nearest court in somaliland, i wish some people can have such a privilage.

[Gabbal]

Bari Nomad said:

When 'somaliland' starts puting people like Riyaale Kaahin in jail instead of electing them 'president'. Then We'll know they are serious about Justice and Human rights and not just playing lip-service for recognition

I agree 100% with you.

 

Lander said:

 

You also said Eritrea was ALLOWED to gain independence and that is false. They had many wars with Ethiopia.

Eritrea did have a long war with Ethiopia and it would still have it, if the TPLF when they ascended to power in 1991 did not grant Eritrea independence. So you're wrong on that one.

 

Bari Nomad also said:

 

If they recognized every tribe/chiefdom that wanted independence this would set a dangerous precedent for themselves(International community) and create hundreds of Welfare states.

You are absolutely right. Why is the United States so adamant on Iraq's territorial integrity when the Kurds(who are a whole different ethnic group from the Arabs) and Shia's have been slaughtered and massacred and deserve a different entity?

 

I really don't beleive any country except Ethiopia has the potential to extend international recognition to any Somali seperatist quasi-state, and Ethiopia will also never be the first one to give that recognition.

[Xassan Nasra Allah]

Unfortunatly gediid side stepped my question about the border. why do you have to mention the cities only. a large part of sanaag and sool, and buuhoodle in togdheer is part of puntland, somalia. cabdillahi yusuf doesn't decide these people's destiny. when these facts are brough to bear to the arguments of seccesion, then it crumbles like a piece of cardboard.

 

ameenah, aruba are an examplry sisters from waqooyi and i commend for their vision and love for all somalia.

 

 

gediid answer my previous and this posts , in a civilized manner please.

 

waiting :confused:

[BN]

Ameenah,

 

In 1991, for the sake of peace, the elders in NW Somalia declared amnesty for all collaborators/members of the previous regime. And Egal made Kaahin V.P. for tribal balance in their 'government' and to get the Western tribes on side of secession.

 

 

Gediid

 

We all know that the tribes in eastern 'Somaliland' went to Garowe in 1998 to take part in the creation of 'Puntland' regional state. We also know that this area of 'Somaliland' is self governing, through it's elders, and the 'Somaliland' government has no power here.

 

If by referendum, do you mean the the kind of Consititutional referendum held in 'Somaliland'? Which received 97% approval....This seems to be the same kind of elections Siad Barre and Saddam Hussain held. Let an unbiased third party hold the referendum in those regions.

 

Please practice what you preach.

 

Nabad.

[BN]

Xassan Nasra Allah,

 

I posted before I read you message, You said it perfectly.

[Gediid]

Xassan

LOL....Its funny how you try evading the question by asking me a question where an answer is due.Somaliland has never been known to be aggressor,we have settled our disputes among ourselves and with others in a civilised manner and will continue to do that in the future.You want Sanaag,then I will give you all the areas that the vote did not take place in the presidential election but there is a big BUT here,you have to let these people vote without fear and coercion as to where they want to be part of.

Will you and your leaders be willing to see that happen or take that risk.

Xaalku waa Maya because the very idea of people making their choice does not appeal to Ina Yusuf.He believes differently and will not allow anything else.On top that people are smarter than you think,they know Ina Yusuf only claim to this area is to use that as a bargaining chip in his quest for the presidency of Somalia.Markaas saaxiib been yaan leysku sheegin.

[BN]

Ameenah,

 

In 1991, for the sake of peace, the elders in NW Somalia declared amnesty for all collaborators/members of the previous regime. And Egal made Kaahin V.P. for tribal balance in their 'government' and to get the Western tribes on side of secession.

 

 

Gediid

 

We all know that the tribes in eastern 'Somaliland' went to Garowe in 1998 to take part in the creation of 'Puntland' regional state. We also know that this area of 'Somaliland' is self governing, through it's elders, and the 'Somaliland' government has no power here.

 

If by referendum, do you mean the the kind of Consititutional referendum held in 'Somaliland'? Which received 97% approval....This seems to be the same kind of elections Siad Barre and Saddam Hussain held. Let's an unbiased third party hold the referendum in those regions.

 

Please practice what you preach.

 

Nabad.

[Xassan Nasra Allah]

gediid, you amaze me wallaahi. iam not a fan of cabdullahi yusuf at all.

 

the majority of people in sool sanaag and buuhoodle went to the 1998 conference ,not for the love of cabdullahi yusuf, but to have an interim administration with their own ethnic groups, untill a federal somali system forms. puntland is a mere administration like somaliland. so are you telling us about what we want? are you telling me that we want to be under your people? get a grip man. our people want peace and security in the area, and a federal somali government.

 

do you have an answer where do you draw your clan's border then? iam dying to know that.

 

you seem to be side stepping the questions we have legitimatly possed, why?

 

i am eagerly waiting for an answer to the question bro

[Gediid]

Xassan Nasra & bari Nomad

 

You both seem to base your arguments on the "1998" meeting but may I add here that the same number of people from these regions have all participated in the Burco meeting of 1991,Boorame meeting of 1993, Hargeysa meeting of 1997.Markaas does participation in a mere meeting mean you have become part of a region,the answer is NO.We have people like countless number of people from these regions who are active members of the Somaliland government just as Ina Yusuf has, markaas where do we draw the line,where do we say that these people represent or are you all saying that one is a lightweight the other a heavyweight when it comes that region.Mise you will say the ministers in the Somaliland government do not represent Sool or East Sanaag whereas Hasharo and Haabsade do.Come on guys I am sure you can both come up with a more credible argument than the "1998" meeting.

[Baashi]

Xassan, gediid is not only telling nomads what to do, he is also exercising a veto...and he is putting conditions as what the terms are in order for nomads in that area to decide their destiny. Man! Gediid you are misled brother..you don't have a clue...do you?

 

Whether nomads there choose Abdullahi or any other dictator is not your concern...your concern is where should we draw the line in Ceerigaabo...without any violence? If recognition is granted that issue will come up...in the meantime we would leave peace in our respective enclaves and places we share...and perhaps politicians will wage their propaganda war for your likes to consume...that dose of reality should sink in.

[Xassan Nasra Allah]

remember aftey ceydiid massacred thousands of people, there was still men from all the clans even siyad barre's were alligned with him. does it mean anything to the populace of the people that he massacred. you are evading this simple question , and it shows that you are not sincere in your politics at all.

 

we don't want somaliland. remember, any entity can bribe people ,and claim to have the support of the people. to summ it up, riyaale incident in laascaanood is the true intention of thepeople.

 

people in SS&H don't want to be part of somaliland.

 

you are re inventing the tire comrade. iam still waiting your reply for my preceding questions.

 

we can claim the inhabitants of burco , who sent some of thier leaders to garoowe want to become part of puntland.

 

the simple logic is, as you guys want not to devide your ethnic people, we don't want to devide our ethnic people into somalilanders and somalis. simple enough?

 

waiting still

[GarYaQaaN]

Salaan Furan,

 

Frankly I am not feeling this thread because of its tribal insinuations. Especially after I got into a heated argument with a co-worker in the office of a prominent politician, who remarked, “Somalis break up into clans…they hate each other more than…their children don’t go to schools and elders sit/stand corners all day…” And some more I am too angry to repeat on the web for the sake of protecting my employer. Though I loathe conceding this emerging stereotype of Somalis in the West, I am beginning to believe it’s a correct evaluation…

 

Back to the Topic:

 

My own evaluations of people who frequent this thread! They divide into 3 factions: Those with principled arguments, those who argue for the sake of arguing, and some hardcore tribalists.

 

LANDER I put you in the camp that argue for the sake of arguing!

 

In response to your April 24th Post:

 

You say we were never unified as a country before independence. Shouldn’t that tell you something? In the history of the entire Somali people, we were only unified once and for 28 yrs of dictatorship. The country was a failure all around. The people who are nostalgic about the good old Bare days, is those who benefited from their close ethnic association with the dictator.

Have you really read my post clearly? Yes we as Somalis were never united politically. Which means such entities, as “Somaliland” and “Somalia” are political creation. However, that does not mean there is no SOMALI nation (which is different from State!). Again, please differentiate between the Bare regime and the Somali people. In my opinion United Somalia was not a failure! It was simply hijacked and abused by a ruthless dictator. Don’t you see the fault in your own argument? By saying “Somalia” never existed you are also Saying “Somaliland” never existed. Bear in mind that every clan and sub-clan had his or her own leader before Independence. Greater “Somalia” is multi tribal and multi ethnic and so is “Somaliland”. If “Somalia” disintegrates into Somaliland and Somalia proper, then Somaliland too will disintegrate because seceding would not cure the DISEASE and that is tribalism my friend!

 

I pointed out the English because it is they that called it “Somaliland” and that is where you get legitimacy…that you were colonized by Britain instead of Italy, Am I right? Why don’t other parts of “Somalia” or parts of “Somaliland” call for independence? Admit the truth, it is not “meaningless historical fact”, but rather has great part to do with this predicament.

 

To your question: Why should we unite? Brother do I need to say the obvious. In today’s world we cannot afford to split; without you I am nothing, and without me you are nothing. Plus we are both sick we got what Somalis call Qabyaalad, and I don’t think it could be healed without bringing our commonality to forth and burying our differences. What you are suggesting is the opposite? :confused: