Mr. Mohamed Heebaan, Ali Bahar Ph D Vs Abdul Ahmed III, Janet Britt

[Abtigiis]

ONLF'ta markuu ka hadlayey wuxuu yidhi: :Fadlan lambarka aad garaacday wuu dansan yahay! (he said nimakaasi ciil iyo cadho ayey la aamusan yihiin meel kasta!)

laakin wuxuu u qarinayaa wuxuu Cali-Dhuux sheegay.

[Hamile]

waryaa Tusbax deka ma ina tusbax baa mise waabaa bahar qudhiisa

 

tusbax ma ali baa

[Ducaysane]

AT &T Posted: Gedo team'na wuxuu ku yidhi " Fadlan Kaadka aad gashatay wuu dhacay ee dib u top up garayso".

War nin yohow Gado daan aad naga daba wadid maad naga daysid. reer Kismaayo noogu yeer.

[Hamile]

Originally posted by Ducaysane:

quote:AT &T Posted: Gedo team'na wuxuu ku yidhi " Fadlan Kaadka aad gashatay wuu dhacay ee dib u top up garayso".

War nin yohow Gado daan aad naga daba wadid maad naga daysid. reer Kismaayo noogu yeer.

Waryaahee kaagan wareersan, reer muqdisho hadaanu kugu yeedhno bal ka waran

 

Doqonyahay, Odaygii adigaa dayacoo dawarsi doontee dadka maxaa kugu didhay

 

Doqonyahay, adigaa dawarsi doontee, dameeraha maxaa wax kuugu dadhay

 

Doqonyahay dadka doorkiis adigaa diidayee xoorka mxaa ku biday

[Hamile]

Kismaayu adeer maxaa ku yaal

[Hamile]

This man is same like abdul topic i thing he is saying the true

 

 

http://wardheernews.com/Books_09/Ismail_A_Ismail/15_Excerpt_gov_ismail.pdf

 

 

The story of governance in Somalia since independence demonstrates beyond doubt the centrality of the

clan system and its preeminence over any other system which may operate under the label of

“parliamentary democracy” or “Islamic rule.” The clan system had provided in ages past what Professor

Lewis called a “pastoral democracy.” It is well known in the science and art of management and public

administration that behind the façade of the formal organization there is an informal organization that is

invariably more effective than the formal one. The clan system represents that informal organization, and

it is not, therefore, something that cannot be applied to modern conditions

[Hamile]

Abdul wax loo xaqiraa meesha ma yaal. Wa nin mutacalim ah oo si fiican wax u qoray. In fact, waxa uu meesha la shir-yimid waa wax aan micno lahayn, but he has the ability to make an issue of a non-issue.

 

[/QB]

This man is same like abdul topic i thing he is saying the true

 

 

http://wardheernews.com/Books_09/Ismail_A_Ismail/15_Excerpt_gov_ismail.pdf

 

 

The story of governance in Somalia since independence demonstrates beyond doubt the centrality of the

clan system and its preeminence over any other system which may operate under the label of

“parliamentary democracy” or “Islamic rule.” The clan system had provided in ages past what Professor

Lewis called a “pastoral democracy.” It is well known in the science and art of management and public

administration that behind the façade of the formal organization there is an informal organization that is

invariably more effective than the formal one. The clan system represents that informal organization, and

it is not, therefore, something that cannot be applied to modern conditions

[Paragon]

Originally posted by Abtigiis & Tusbax:

Paragon,

 

Abdul Ahmed is articulate and good in discussing some theories ( sometimes giving too many examples of where the said theories are used, in what seems to me as selling the validity of the theory to us just by invoking names of individualks who have used it or are associated with). But there is nothing scientific about his research methods and conclusions.

 

If at all it seems he has made up his mind about what to recommend as a solution to Somalia and merely used the process of research and referencing to relevant social theories as a basis to justify his own pre-concieved solutions.

 

He is selective in picking data as is evident from his claim that trade between North and South has declined, whereas he doesn't want to pay attention to the massive influx of Southererns to Hargeisa and the impact it will have on social dynamics, particulary when clan is the issues he discussses. He set out to prove that the North and South are getting apart, but the truth is the two people know about each other more now than when they were under one regime.

 

As Dr. Ali Bahar suggested in one of his rebuttals, this is nothing more than a predatory act of trying to cash-in from the misery of a people for self-aggrandizement. One parochial look at an aspect of the somali society, i.e, clan, and suddenly Abdul has found fodder for the enticing 'irreversibility' theroy he so fondly talks about. And he is trying to intimidate readers that if they challenge the relevance of the theories he likes to the somali situation, then they are challenging Science itself!!

 

His conclusions that a meeting between Guurtii's of different clans are the entry point for national reconcilliation is false and simplistic. There is no need to follow his reasonings or prescriptions to bring somalia back. All that Somalia needs is money. Even the seemingly hapless TFG can impose itself and turn into credible government if properly funded.

Thanks, AT&T. I take your view on board. I would have felt inclined to write in response to your post in the old days of SOL, but lately, I cannot bring myself to do so. This discussion is an interesting one and I'A I will try my best to share my thoughts with you. Some day, that is, when time is most agreeable to me. Still, shukran again.

[Hamile]

oh you are just talking I thing abdul talk about mistakes and emotion of Bahar

 

also this man ismail is same like abdul topic i thing he is saying the true

 

read here

 

http://wardheernews.com/Books_09/Ismail_A_Ismail/15_Excerpt_gov_ismail.pdf

 

 

The story of governance in Somalia since independence demonstrates beyond doubt the centrality of the

clan system and its preeminence over any other system which may operate under the label of

“parliamentary democracy” or “Islamic rule.” The clan system had provided in ages past what Professor Lewis called a “pastoral democracy.” It is well known in the science and art of management and public administration that behind the façade of the formal organization there is an informal organization that is invariably more effective than the formal one. The clan system represents that informal organization, and it is not, therefore, something that cannot be applied to modern conditions

[Hamile]

http://www.hiiraan.com/op2/2010/jan/saving_somalia_theseus_paradox.aspx

 

 

Trapped in fantasy of a political settlement and/or unified statehood, many Somali affairs scholars, policy makers, journalist and politicians seem to be locked in a failing approach to constitute a lasting settlement. This is in part because of their overemphasis on forming a unified, centralized, Somali National Government. It is a fanciful thing to dream about formulating a lasting solution to the protracted Somali crisis, particularly one that calls for a centralized national government. But analysts and scholars are not alone; in fact international policy makers tend to further very similar goals without understanding and/or appreciating the fundamental social origins of the Somali problem. They justifiably but erroneously perceive Somalia as a single monolithic nation-state in need of international support to reconstitute a central authority. In the following paragraphs, I attempt to point out (1) the obsolete paradigm with which the Somali problem is often viewed and analyzed. (2) Rationality of collective clan behavior and its impact on statehood (3) the mismatch of clan based morality with statehood (3) and (4) Feasible policy options for the post collapse era.

 

 

 

Since last 20-years, the clan social system and its political implication was either ignored or misunderstood. It may be misunderstood as is manifested by the power sharing schemes that were designed for Somali groups to share power since 1991 which only resulted in 15 failed governments. More importantly, policy makers and the international players may be using an obsolete model of Somalia. Perhaps Somalia of 2010 is not the same as the Somalia of 1990; Is this Theseus Paradox ? But prior to casting Today’s Somalia as an obsolete model let us examine how and what drives the evolution of Somali politics. Is it the clan system? Is it the need for a nation-state?

[Paragon]

^Hamile - thanks for the above links. Makes for a good reading.

[Abtigiis]

He concludes:

 

"The international community must respect the desires and the dominion of the clan group over administering their own affairs as they see fit rather than be a nuisance. "

 

He acknowledges:

 

"Since the beginning of recorded Somali history, sadly clan based rivalries and all out wars had unleashed worst of human nature in an endless fierce competition for everything material and non-material alike. All Somali clan conflicts embody an element of (a) pride to uphold, revenge to conduct, (b) clan interest to better, © clan based morality to fulfill and (d) resources to compete for. Moreover, clan empathy and clan based morality have always been the driving force behind most clan conflicts. Clan based morality asserts itself as an obligation that often supersedes any other form of social recognition and human virtue."

 

So what is it? Soo ha la isku wareero ee faraha ka qaada Somalia ma aha Abdul's 'ground-breaking' recommendation!

 

He is mixing up too many things. Making all these nonesense appear grand ideas by spraying fancy terms such as the 'Theseus Paradox' into it.

 

He didn't even explain how the Theseus paradox which is a paradox that raises the question of "whether an object which has had all its component parts replaced remains fundamentally the same object", remains relevant to the Somali cause. What is being replaced in the case of Somali clan system? Have some clan's morphed into something new? He should show us the connection. Otherwise, it is an attempt to bamboozle by way of using bombastic semantics.

 

Two questions for Abdul:

 

1- Why can't he acknowledge that he is critising a non-existent approach of 'bringing a centralised Somalia back', when the fact it is long understood that Somalia cannot be goverened as it used to be goverened in the past, and hence the issue of Federal system is what is proposed and is seen as a remedy!

 

2- Why can't he see that leaving clan elders alone to come up with a solution is not necessarily going to result in a peace! To what extent can the rival Moqadishu clans be left to sit togather and come up with a common position among themselves, when the clan morality, interest and pride is still an issue?

 

3- Who are the 'Clans?' In Somaliland, Silaanyo is a different clan than Feysal Cali Waraabe? Rayaale is a different clan than Garad Jaamac? In Puntland, Cade Muse is a different clan than Faroole? Where does it start and where does it end?

 

Abdul's conclusions increasingly seem to stem from political convictions than pure academic analysis. I am not taking him seriously anymore.

[Hamile]

waryaahee ali bahar tusbax waxaan ku odhan lahaa cabqari soo daah inna abti

 

abdul sow kan kuu qeexay eraygaa he say in the article {It is time to acknowledge that we all have been trapped in Theseus Paradox! Today’s Somalia is not the Somalia that once was.} ina abti baroo ka baadh internetka http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_and_change

 

he is more right he is against ignoring of the somaliland he expaliand the theses parodox {Most planners, analysts and international players face the Theseus Paradox when dealing with the issue of Somalia. Today’s reconfigured new realities are not fully recognized and appreciated by the interaction al community and Somali politicians alike. For instance Somaliland and Puntland are realities to contend with yet there is no any effort on the part of the international community to involve these quasi-states in the efforts to find a solution to the Somali problem

 

 

 

qabbilkuna wuxuu yidhi make the difreent qabiils create government he say never tell the qabiil to make like the muqdisho government becose difirent qabiil can make better government then muqdisho government

 

 

hays cabudhin inna abti ooda ka qaad agendaha

hadalkaagu ma burcadnimo iyo muqdishaa

 

 

intaadan eray odhan inna geeldoona bal ka waran ?

 

http://wardheernews.com/Books_09/Ismail_A_Ismail/15_Excerpt_gov_ismail.pdf

 

 

The story of governance in Somalia since independence demonstrates beyond doubt

the centrality of the clan system and its preeminence over any other system which may operate under the label of

“parliamentary democracy” or “Islamic rule.” The clan system had provided in ages past what Professor Lewis called a “pastoral democracy.” It is well known in the science and art of management and public administration that behind the façade of the formal organization there is an informal organization that is invariably more effective than the formal one. The clan system represents that informal organization, and it is not, therefore, something that cannot be applied to modern conditions

[Hamile]

Originally posted by Abtigiis & Tusbax:

Paragon,

 

One parochial look at an aspect of the somali society, i.e, clan, and suddenly Abdul has found fodder for the enticing 'irreversibility' theroy he so fondly talks about. And he is trying to intimidate readers that if they challenge the relevance of the theories he likes to the somali situation, then they are challenging Science itself!!

 

.

DEKA WROTE

Yet Abdul Ahmed III and his colleague’s seminal work on irreversibility of human social organizations, its dynamics, entropy, and political orientations is neither pure science nor a credible social science. This theory has been tested in our physical/environmental world, but yet to be proofed in our SOCIAL WORLD.

 

 

ABDUL REPLY

There is a large contemporary scientific work dealing with irreversibility in social sciences. These include social and historical dynamics by Edgar Zilser in 1930s,

 

The study of irreversibility has started in mid 19th century. There is an ample literature that shows the use of these concepts in economics, physics, social science, evolutionary biology and anthropology. For instance Hadamard studied sensitivity of initial conditions, Comte suggested the idea of social physics as early as 1820s. Even the use of irreversibility in environment is related to sociology and social dynamics in a socio-ecological system. It is social dynamics that affects the environment, be it carbon emissions or desertification, or fisheries were the concept of collapse and irreversibility are more intuitive. Ismael must acknowledge that Irreversibility is NOT invented by the writer R Carson.! - Did Carson popularize it for the general public? may be for the non scientist! But in that case Ismail shouldn't make such historically inaccurate statements.

 

DEKA WROTE

No one can save us from people like Lenin or Karl Mark to fashion a superficial economic or social ideas that alter geopolitical landscapes of the world. Similarly, capitalism world of extreme nationalism in yesteryear is now promoting globalization and borderless society. Contrary to Abdul Ahmed III’s irreversibility theories, we have seen French dominance under Napoleon; the rule of Holy Roman Empire ; and the Prussian principalities in Europe that all reverted back to tribal living arrangement under the banner of nation building with the new inventions of flags and demarked borders.

 

ABDUL REPLY

Ideas and thought on how to govern exhibit irreversibility traits. This is contrary to Ismail's claims that ideas are not physical entities that cannot be subject to evolutionary concepts. In fact ideas evolve spread and change; evolution of some ideas and public opinions such as (regionalism in the former Somalia) get to a point where it becomes the dominant public opinion and perhaps a policy that becomes irreversible! Such policies may simply emanate from individual clan affinity and perhaps even an unconscious deeply held clan trait (regardless of whether it seems logical or fair to others). No one can make Northern Somali States fall in love with a centralized regime based in Mogadishu!. I recommend an extensive literature review on evolution and spread of ideas - Ismail would be amazed to discover that ideas behave much like fashions and fads - amusing but true!

[Hamile]

Originally posted by Hamile:

waryaahee ali bahar tusbax waxaan ku odhan lahaa cabqari soo daah inna abti

 

abdul sow kan kuu qeexay eraygaa he say in the article {It is time to acknowledge that we all have been trapped in Theseus Paradox! Today’s Somalia is not the Somalia that once was.} ina abti baroo ka baadh internetka

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_and_change

 

he is more right he is against ignoring of the somaliland he expaliand the theses parodox {Most planners, analysts and international players face the Theseus Paradox when dealing with the issue of Somalia. Today’s reconfigured new realities are not fully recognized and appreciated by the interaction al community and Somali politicians alike. For instance Somaliland and Puntland are realities to contend with yet there is no any effort on the part of the international community to involve these quasi-states in the efforts to find a solution to the Somali problem

 

 

 

qabbilkuna wuxuu yidhi make the difreent qabiils create government he say never tell the qabiil to make like the muqdisho government becose difirent qabiil can make better government then muqdisho government

 

 

hays cabudhin inna abti ooda ka qaad agendaha

hadalkaagu ma burcadnimo iyo muqdishaa

 

 

intaadan eray odhan inna geeldoona bal ka waran ?

 

http://wardheernews.com/Books_09/Ismail_A_Ismail/15_Excerpt_gov_ismail.pdf

 

 

The story of governance in Somalia since independence demonstrates beyond doubt

the centrality of the clan system and its preeminence over any other system which may operate under the label of

“parliamentary democracy” or “Islamic rule.” The clan system had provided in ages past what Professor Lewis called a “pastoral democracy.” It is well known in the science and art of management and public administration that behind the façade of the formal organization there is an informal organization that is invariably more effective than the formal one. The clan system represents that informal organization, and it is not, therefore, something that cannot be applied to modern conditions