ICU, Mengistu Isayas have new african country - Tigray

[Somali_Friend]

This is simply BIZZARRE.

 

ICU and Hassan Tahir in Mugadishu (for a few monthes)

Mengistu and old ethiopia nostaligic (15 years)

Isayas of Eritrea (since embarassing defeat of 2000)

 

Strange buddies. All crying their top lungs Tigray Tigray Tigray.....well lets see some information here.

 

1. Those against Federalism in Ethiopia should have actually blamed WSLF more than TPLF. It was WSLF in 1984 that first officially came up with the Regional Outonomous States and Federal Government controlled by the States through a Constitution and a body of State representatives. Tigray may have been the most receptive and supportive of the idea, but the Afar are also another most staunchly supporters of the idea.

 

But nobody wants to give credit to the Somali. On the contrary they call the somali a fool being cheated and decieved by Tigray.

I have one word for these goons- losers.

 

2. Tigray at the most is 7% of the ethiopian population, there are 3 ethnics in Tigray, 3 Religions (Islam, Christianity and Judaism very small community now), All centers and high historical places for religion are in Tigray Axum for Christians, Negash for Moslems especially.

Tigray revolted against King Haileslassie in 1943 and the British Ryal Air Force used fire bombing to defeat the rebellion named Weyannie. The current Weyannie II started in 1974 and is called TPLF which the prime minister led from 1980s.

 

The population of Tigray origin is Kushiiitic, Semitic and Nilotic. All three peoples are divided into two between Eritrea and Ethiopia.

 

The ICU seems to have replaced the name ethiopia with Tigray lately. I heard that in Mugadishu the ICU doesn't want it known that Isayas is himself from Tigray, but born in today's Eritrea. ICU also doesn't want it known that Negash is in Tigray. Again ICU doesn't want it known that some chiefs of army including chief of staff of ethiopia are moslems, but ICU makes sure that its known he is from Tigray.

 

The deception is incredible for people that call themselves Shieks and supreme leader in Islam.

 

The funniest thing is when one sees the Mengistu and past ethiopia nostalgic, who are totally defeated in the country are cheering for ICU. That is comedic, except when you realize that a lot of poor Somali and Ethiopian is being victimized for these unprincipled losers some hiding under democracy and others under religion.

[General Duke]

The ICU seems to have replaced the name ethiopia with Tigray lately. I heard that in Mugadishu the ICU doesn't want it known that Isayas is himself from Tigray, but born in today's Eritrea. ICU also doesn't want it known that Negash is in Tigray. Again ICU doesn't want it known that some chiefs of army including chief of staff of ethiopia are moslems, but ICU makes sure that its known he is from Tigray.

 

:eek:

[Che -Guevara]

This is a case of pot calling the kettle black.

[Somali_Friend]

Che-Guevara,

 

Have you ever heard the name Tigray before "Colonel" Hassan Tahir started using it in place of Ethiopia or Haabesha?

 

I have met Somalis from ICU held areas, admitted that they didn't know about Tigray until ICU made it a household name in Mugadishu.

[BiLaaL]

Originally posted by Somali_Friend:

I have met Somalis from ICU held areas, admitted that they didn't know about Tigray until ICU made it a household name in Mugadishu.

You've just shown your true colors. You're either a lying missionary or a true missionary, in which case SOL members should take note. Presumably, you've visited these ICU held areas post June of 2006. What exactly is an Ethiopian like yourself doing in ICU held areas? Let it be clear to all that the reason this filty missionary posts derogatory threads against the ICU is because they've made he's work almost impossible to do; and will in time, inshallah, make all missionary efforts disappear from all Somali territories.

 

In another thread by this member, 'The road to Darfur lies in Mugadishu, Somalia - Radio Jijiga ', we find this continuing trend.

Originally posted by Somali_Friend:

Are you saying that Hassan Tahir did not run away to Mugadishu, through central somalia when Al-Ithad was decimated and its arab fighters captured.

Zenawi with his so-called second biggest army in Africa found it hard to dislodge Al-Ittihad for a number of years. This time Sheikh Xasan Daahir Caweys is back with the support of all Somalis. If Zenawi couldn't achieve victory against a small band of fighters, how will he defeat the ICU?

 

Let it be known that even at the time of Al-Ittihad, Sheikh Xasan Daahir Caweys's aim was to come to the aid of defenseless border line communities such as Luuq, who were suffering at the hands of Ethiopian soldiers. Contrary to the lies being spread by this missionary, the Sheikh's fighters were Somali and not arabs. The Sheikh established this group at a time when neither the international community nor Arab fighters were interested in Somalia.

 

Somali_Friend, you can continue to post thread after thread of your baseless accusations, but i assure you, that your baseless accusations will not go unanswered.

[Somali_Friend]

Originally posted by BiLaaL_07:

quote:Originally posted by Somali_Friend:

I have met Somalis from ICU held areas, admitted that they didn't know about Tigray until ICU made it a household name in Mugadishu.

You've just shown your true colors. You're either a lying missionary or a true missionary, in which case SOL members should take note. Presumably, you've visited these ICU held areas post June of 2006. What exactly is an Ethiopian like yourself doing in ICU held areas? Let it be clear to all that the reason this filty missionary posts derogatory threads against the ICU is because they've made he's work almost impossible to do; and will in time, inshallah, make all missionary efforts disappear from all Somali territories.

What was that all about? Yes I have met Somalis from ICU held or if according to some occupied lands. Is that so scary to you?

Yes I am an ethiopian. I think you need to do some investigation. Tigray land mass is probably less than 10% of ethiopia and population wise Tigray is less than 7% of ethiopia.

There are also more moslems in ethiopia than many countries that are called Islamic countries.

There is more Somali in ethiopia than there is in Djibuti, Somaliland and Puntland all put together.

Islam and Moslems have lived in east africa since the beginning and the place known for it as Negash is now a province in none other than the state of Tigray.

 

These are just some very elementary info for your benefit. Just in case you follow ICU propaganda of deception about ethiopians.

[BiLaaL]

Yes I have met Somalis from ICU held or if according to some occupied lands. Is that so scary to you? Yes I am an ethiopian.

What troubles me is not that you're Ethiopian or that you've met Somalis in ICU held areas. What troubles me is why you detest the ICU so much? Most Ethiopians condemn the actions of Zenawi in Somalia, why aren't you one of them. What have the ICU done to you?

 

There is more Somali in ethiopia than there is in Djibuti, Somaliland and Puntland all put together.

Have you ever considered that this may be due to the fact that Ethiopia occupies a large portion of Somali territory. The large number of Somalis you speak of do not exactly reside in Addis (i.e. the interior) do they?

 

These are just some very elementary info for your benefit. Just in case you follow ICU propaganda of lies about ethiopians. yes lies. Because I can give you examples of them.

I must have triggered a nerve for you to call me a novice at Somali affairs. In regards to ICU propoganda; the ICU do not spread lies or propoganda. It is natural for indigenous administrators to highlight the evil designs of occupying armies. The ICU has thus far done nothing more than this. Sheikh Shariif Ahmed has reiterated, many times, that they have nothing against the Ethiopian people.

 

Somali_Friend, the question remains, if you're not a missionary who detests the ICU on religious grounds, on what grounds do you detest the ICU? I have read many of you're posts and have not detected any nationalist sentiments from you, so i gather that you're not upset at the 'Greater Somalia' project advanced by the ICU. So what exactly is your problem with the ICU?

[Somali_Friend]

BiLaaL_07,

 

Thats a good question. Why I dislike the ICU is in deed a good question for a good discussion.

 

In a nut shell it comes down to this. The ICU has been completely taken over by the supreme leader Hassan Tahir. Nothing, absolutely nothing can the ICU do now that is not in alignment with Hassan Tahir and his organization.

The courts that constituted the Union in the beginning or Sheik Ahmed whom they use for public relations is just that, all have been now controlled by organization/s under Hassan Tahir.

 

First let me dispel the notion that Hassan Tahir is working on the greater Somalia dream. Nothing could be further from the truth. Hassan Tahir would change his tune if Kenya now offers to recognize his government (ready to be declared if they can find countries that will jump ship from TFG). You can take that to the bank. Before you jump to defend and declare, he would never do that, I ask you to go back and look what happened with the Barre regime and not a finger was raised in Mugadishu when Barre signed away with Kenya. He also signed away WSLF in exchange of Mengistu to do the same with organizations he may have looked the other way. Neither Mengistu controlled the Somali organizations from Somalia nor did Barre control the WSLF, but the fact is that Mugadishu is always eager to speak as representative of the Somali ethiopian and is also eager to bargain the somali ethiopian when it is in a tight spot.

Secondly, Hassan Tahir has done more destructive acts against WSLF and is most disliked for this reason. WSLF decided to do the following in 1984:

1. suspend military operations, because the somali was in so much difficulty where his very survival was in question. One cannot continue simply fighting for the sake of it while the situation of the people is not sustainable. It can lead to civil war where the ethiopian government of the day would take advantage.

2. Mugadishu involvement has always been negative to the Somali. First of all there is the legal question. An independent country somalia speaking of lands in another independent country ethiopia, legaly means aggression and no country, even arab countries can support it. Egypt was the one that pushed for the colonial border agreement for the purpose of Sudan.

The struggle of the Somali ethiopian is a struggle for self determination. Period.

3. If a federal system can be set up in ethiopia, the Somali will set up self government and build all the structures of a self governing peoples and land, so has a self standing government, institutions, police, militia as a state and participate in the ethiopian federation.

 

In 1991 the somali along with other ethiopians succeeded in defeating the ethiopian government and all the above 3 points have been successful.

Now its time to develop what has been established, some of it is only on baby steps.

 

So since you seem to be of the conviction that Hassan Tahir works very hard for greater somalia, I just showed to you that on the contrary he works against it, as far as the Somali ethiopians are concerned.

 

Greater somalia from this point on can only be realized if every part of it is first confident on themselves, have institutions and strength to earn the consideration of their fellow somali in other parts.

 

Notice that I did not mention about Al-Ithad and its fight with WSLF and other Somali organizations. I did not mention anything that the person of Hassan Tahir may have played in Somali Regional State negative or positive.

 

Lets deal point by point. I think this one issue is enough for this post and I wait what you have to say on it.

[Oromia]

Originally posted by Somali_Friend:

3. If a federal system can be set up in ethiopia, the Somali will set up self government and build all the structures of a self governing peoples and land, so has a self standing government, institutions, police, militia as a state and participate in the ethiopian federation.

 

You at least admit there is no federal government in ethiopia now.

I leave the rest for Bilal 07 to debunk.

[Somali_Friend]

Originally posted by Oromia:

quote:Originally posted by Somali_Friend:

3. If a federal system can be set up in ethiopia, the Somali will set up self government and build all the structures of a self governing peoples and land, so has a self standing government, institutions, police, militia as a state and participate in the ethiopian federation.

 

You at least admit there is no federal government in ethiopia now.

I don't know wether to laugh or smile. why don't you read first. WSLF 1984 that to me is 22 years ago. Mengistu was the dictator in ethiopia and the Somali, Afar, Tigray...were still fighting the addis ababa regime.

[Oromia]

Originally posted by Somali_Friend:

quote:Originally posted by Oromia:

[qb]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Somali_Friend:

3. If a federal system can be set up in ethiopia, the Somali will set up self government and build all the structures of a self governing peoples and land, so has a self standing government, institutions, police, militia as a state and participate in the ethiopian federation.

 

You at least admit there is no federal government in ethiopia now.

I don't know wether to laugh or smile. why don't you read first. WSLF 1984 that to me is 22 years ago.

Your own fault mr. It is a language problem on your side. Don't laugh, go to school. You should have written:

 

3. If a federal system can (could) be set up in ethiopia, the Somali will (would) set up self government and build all the structures of a self governing peoples and land, so has a self standing government, institutions, police, militia as a state and participate in the ethiopian federation.

[Oromia]

Somali_Friend,

 

Also you haven't answered me why the Tigree government haven't allowed Tigree Muslims to construct thier own Masgid with minaraa? Of course, the fact that Tigree muslims have to make thier ibadaa in row houses in Axum is an open secret.

[Oromia]

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71301.htm

 

Local authorities in the northern town of Axum, a holy city for the EOC, continued to deny Muslim leaders' repeated requests to allocate land for the construction of a mosque, even though the constitution provides for freedom to establish institutions of religious education and administration. Tigray regional government officials chose not to interpret this provision liberally in the town of Axum, and the Federal Government did not overrule them. Muslims have had access to land since the country became a republic in 1995. In 2003, a group of Muslims attempted to build a mosque in Axum, but it was torn down by a local mob because it was built without permission from the regional government. Local officials ordered the Muslim community not to resume construction.

[BiLaaL]

Originally posted by Somali_Friend:

In a nut shell it comes down to this. The ICU has been completely taken over by the supreme leader Hassan Tahir. Nothing, absolutely nothing can the ICU do now that is not in alignment with Hassan Tahir and his organization.

The ICU has two separate branches, the executive led by Sheikh Shariif Axmed, and the Shura Council led by Sheikh Xasan Daahir Caweys. Sheikh Axmed is the overall Chairman of the Courts, whereas Sheikh Caweys chairs the Consultative Shura Council. The word 'Shura' means consultation in Arabic. The role of the Shura Council is to approve the decisions of the Chairman. Some have incorrectly interpreted this to means that real power lies with the Shura Council, since the power to approve is vested in the Shura Council. The Shura Council of which Sheikh Caweys chairs, by no means acts unilaterally on any matter. The system of governance in play here is an Islamic one dating back to the Prophet, perhaps this explains its wide mis-understanding by non-muslims such as yourself. This is a system where ego or vested interests play no part. Adhering to its principles is tantamount to belief in Allah and his Prophet, likewise digressing from it, is tantamount to disbelieve in what Allah and his prophet have brought. You're assessment views Sheikh Caweys as a politician; if he were one, perhaps you'd be right. However, Sheikh Caweys is a man of religion, who realises the transitory nature of worldly benefits.

 

You also speak of:

'Hassan Tahir and his organization'

.

Sheikh Caweys is part of the ICU. An uninformed reader might take this to mean that Caweys commands an organisation separate from the ICU. I'll take it that this is a mishap on your part.

 

First let me dispel the notion that Hassan Tahir is working on the greater Somalia dream. Nothing could be further from the truth

.

Sheik Caweys has made his ambitions for Greater Somalia very clear in numerous news articles. I'm sure you've come across many of them yourself. A recent quote of his is as follows: "We will leave no stone unturned to integrate our Somali brothers in Kenya and Ethiopia and restore their freedom to live with their ancestors in Somalia." Note that he mentions both Kenyan and Ethiopian occupied areas.

 

Hassan Tahir would change his tune if Kenya now offers to recognize his government (ready to be declared if they can find countries that will jump ship from TFG)

Some research would have helped your case. Kenya has already jumped ship from the TFG to join the growing number of realists. As many of us remember, Kenya was reluctant to see an Islamic state in Somalia much like Kampala and Washington. This was futher exacerbated by the peaceful takeover of Kismayo, a city close to the Kenyan border. Kenya changed this stance at the recent mid November Djibouti meeting when it distanced itself from the peacekeeping proposals and joined the growing chorus of diplomatic efforts aimed at restarting negotiations. Raphael Tuju, Kenya's foreign minister, has held meetings with Somali expatriates, to reaffirm Kenya's stance, and agreed to appoint a committee made up of expartriates to monitor developments in Somalia.

 

Its been a little over a month since Kenya changed its stance. Sheikh Caweys has not sold out his fellow Somali Kenyans has he? Going by your comments, he should have done this as soon this latest recalculation by Kenya took place, in support of the ICU.

 

Before you jump to defend and declare, he would never do that, I ask you to go back and look what happened with the Barre regime and not a finger was raised in Mugadishu when Barre signed away with Kenya

.

Comparing Barre with Caweys is a sign of just how weak your case to defame Sheikh Caweys is. I'll wait for you to come up with more substantial evidence or even a slight hint that Caweys ever entertained thoughts to relinguish the idea of Greater Somalia.

 

Secondly, Hassan Tahir has done more destructive acts against WSLF and is most disliked for this reason

.

Incredible! Evidence please!!

 

 

WSLF decided to do the following in 1984:

1.

suspend military operations, because the somali was in so much difficulty where his very survival was in question

.

Before tranversing the points you've listed, let me dispel one erroneous notion of yours, which i believe you're well aware of. Which is this - why do you speak of WSLF, knowing that it no longer exists? The WSLF has long been replaced by the ONLF, so let us discuss its views rather than the views of WSLF which were naturally influenced by the political climate of its era.

 

2.

Mugadishu involvement has always been negative to the Somali. First of all there is the legal question. An independent country somalia speaking of lands in another independent country ethiopia, legaly means aggression and no country, even arab countries can support it. The struggle of the Somali ethiopian is a struggle for self determination. Period

.

I'm glad that you've brought up the legality of the concerned areas and the right of the occupied peoples to self-determination. Aggression is a crime under international law, but only when two completely sovereign states are involved. The areas the Somali state ventured into were formely land that rightly belonged to the Somali state prior to partition. This partition was ofcourse illegal. Modern constructs of international law cannot deal with such situations, since its framers were part of the problem. The question of aggression in regards to disputed land is therefore not classed as 'aggression'.

 

You speak of self-determination. The concepf of self-determination was introduced in part because international law was not retrospective enough to deal with such disputes. I am all for self-determination. If Ethiopia allows self-determination for the areas it occupies, we all now to whom the ONLF would choose to become part of.

 

3.

If a federal system can be set up in ethiopia, the Somali will set up self government and build all the structures of a self governing peoples and land, so has a self standing government, institutions, police, militia as a state and participate in the ethiopian federation

.

A federal system is not the answer. To be sure, federalism would go some way in reducing the difficulties for occupied areas, but it ignores the reality that Somalis in these areas wish to return back to the fold of their brothers and sisters in Somalia, where their economic, cultural and religious well-being would fare better.

 

So since you seem to be of the conviction that Hassan Tahir works very hard for greater somalia, I just showed to you that on the contrary he works against it, as far as the Somali ethiopians are concerned

.

You've shown nothing to indicate the above contention. The notions you've presented are absurd, i've addressed them not because there is any merit in them but because of my desire to clear up any confusion.

 

Somali_Friend, you've side-tracked on my original question; which was to give reasons for you're misgivings against the ICU. The ONLF was never mentioned in my original post. So far, the only thing you've shown is that you have deep reservations about Sheikh Caweys, none of which are true in the slightest.

[Somali_Friend]

BiLaaL_07,

 

I would like to say thank you for the way you discuss your points.

Then you felt that I didn't provide any links or reference to some of the points, so at this time thats what I will do.

 

As for ICU changing their tunes, You and I don't have to go search for the past, just in the nick of time, you can read from the discussions ICU had in Yemen. I don't know what you think of the agreement between Shiek Ahmed and Shiek Sherif, wether it has any significance or not, but what they discussed with Yemen is relevant to the point. spot on.

Here is the link for the Press release

 

http://www.somaliaonline.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=007903

 

 

As for WSLF decisions in 1984. I give you the link here under, but please realize that the Federal system in ethiopia today is an idea formulated and promoted by WSLF including the Regional states and governments. Afar and Tigray were just enthusiastic supporters of the idea. It was also noted in the ethiopian parliament debate as to the validity of this.

 

 

Here is the link that will show you clearly why in 1984 the somali chose what happened and implemented since then in ethiopia.

http://countrystudies.us/somalia/27.htm

 

 

Is ONLF only a name changed WSLF?

I think you said yes for this, correct me if I am wrong. It cannot be further from the truth. I give you one small example instead of giving you what I think is the reality and why.

I provide you this link just in case you can pick up the Somali spoken in it, some of it is clear, or if you understand the ethiopian language Amharic. Its an interview done last month with one ONLF CC member and another a commander that reconciled with the Somali State government and came home to continue their struggle peacefully and politically.

 

I don't have this link for now. sorry.

 

Instead read this link which will give you the relationship of ONLF to the Somali Ethiopian.

http://www.******.com/******_Leadership.htm