Maxaad Kula Talin Leheydeen Ururka Maxkamadaha Somalia?

[Abu-Salman]

Originally posted by Nur:

[...]

 

In 2006, the Islamic Courts Union was an alliance of most Islamic groups. The other alliance was the Criminal Warlords alliance which was humiliated and one of its leaders driven to drown in the Indian ocean.

 

In 2009, there is a different formation, a minority of the ICU are in alliance with Criminal Warlords, while the majority of their past allies are in the opposition and about to take over Mogadishu again, ironically in the same summer season.[...]

 

Nur

Ulamas have called for support to the Sharif led TFG, which implemented Shariah, our central request, while others were involved in mediating until the full-scale war started by those opposing the now Islamic Government.

 

As for the Amisom and warlords, we need a step-by-step approach and I see no reason whatsoever or any possibilty of Ugandans or Burundi troops staying once armed youths or masquerading thugs no longer pose a threat to the government; that is why Sh Sharif repeated his offers of negociations ("everything is on the table")!

 

The crux of the matter is that any viable government will have to engage both Somalis as well as the rest of the world; a daunting task for which Al Shabab & co are hardly able to perform due to their sometimes unislamic exuberance, though Sh Hassan Dahir and others who accept Ulamas as final authorities, notably on Shariah interpretation, may be accomodated.

 

Personally, I would have found a Sharif led government would be almost ideal; an honest Islamic character who leads technocrats...

[Nur]

Brother Salman Writes:

 

Ulamas have called for support to the Sharif led TFG, which implemented Shariah, our central request, while others were involved in mediating until the full-scale war started by those opposing the now Islamic Government.

 

Answer:

 

Brother Allah says in Quraan { Wa idhaa qultum facdiluu) meaning when you make a statement be just and fair.

 

Your statement gives the impression that the opposition groups opposed a legitimate state that applied Islam at its incorporation, and you well know my brother that the Sharief Government was incorporated in Djibouti along secular constitution that to this date remains "transitional" and was not incorporated along Islamic Constitution to deserve unquestionable pubic obedience.

 

After failure to carry out its secular agenda that was the wish of the "International Community aka US, EU, AU, Ethiopia", that erupted with a fierce opposition to this secular government that had in its ranks criminal Warlords who have committed well documented crimes against humanity for the past 20 years as agents of Ethiopia, Shareef's government, not only accommodated them, with law enforcement positions, but also, trusted them with the national security of the nation along with their Ethiopian handlers. The Shareef government only declared Application of Sharia to cling to what is left of its popular mandate for leadership of the nation.

 

A genuine Application of Sharia automatically calls for mass resignation of a government that includes known criminal warlords and agents of foreign enemy nation, followed by an inquiry into the warlord's present and past crimes against the nation, their agency for Ethiopia, a nation that Somalia has not reached any agreement on unresolved issues that led to two wars of 1964 and 1977 for which many Somali war heroes have given their lives.

 

The Ulima have equally asked Sharief to kick out the criminal, civilian killers AU forces out of Somalia, which he also failed to do so. Shareef was not elected by the people, nor by the Ulima, he was Selected by foreign power brokers who to this day are assisting him in vain to stay in power against the wish of a great majority of his people. The opposition forces would not have defeated Shareef in his own backyard if his followers outnumbered the opposition, so in a way, when there is no just and fair ballot to select leadership, unfortunately, the bullet does, and today, there is a stale mate, a government that enjoys Foreign recognition who can not win the trust of its people to stay in power in 24 hours without foreign intervention!

 

 

Brother Salman Writes:

 

As for the Amisom and warlords, we need a step-by-step approach and I see no reason whatsoever or any possibilty of Ugandans or Burundi troops staying once armed youths or masquerading thugs no longer pose a threat to the government; that is why Sh Sharif repeated his offers of negociations ("everything is on the table")!

 

 

Answer:

 

Brother, Its strange that you are soft on the Ethiopian, Ugandans and the Burundi soldiers of fortune, and hard on the Shabaab, calling them Thugs! Who is a thug, an army hired for 26 Million Dollars a month to kill starving people who need peace? or the freedom fighters fighting to liberate the Sovereignty of their nation and the rule of Allah's law in the land? , wallahi, my brother, that is utterly unfair, and that is exactly the defeatist mindset that is prolonging our national problem, when we see the outside criminals as "peacekeepers" from our own brothers who helped liberated the nation from a blatant Ethiopian incursion and rape of our nation with assistance of criminal warlord government on their behalf.

 

Brother, If Somalia was a woman, she is being raped right in front of our eyes, By Ethiopian, Ugandan, and Burundian Soldiers, while the Criminal Warlords are pinning down the screaming woman on the ground, so that soldiers take turns, which infuriates her brothers who are trying to free the woman and you are suggesting to her brothers trying to free her from the rapist to be reasonable and not to make trouble to endanger the woman's life? Where is AMIN ARTS WHEN I NEED HIS CARTOONS THE MOST?

 

 

Brother Salman Writes:

 

 

The crux of the matter is that any viable government will have to engage both Somalis as well as the rest of the world; a daunting task for which Al Shabab & co are hardly able to perform due to their sometimes unislamic exuberance, though Sh Hassan Dahir and others who accept Ulamas as final authorities, notably on Shariah interpretation, may be accommodated.

 

 

Answer:

 

 

Brother, charity begins at home, unless you are Sovereign in your own backyard, no matter what you do, you will have to act as a slave to foreign dictators of how to run your domestic affairs. If the Criminal Whorelord Politicians are so well suited to deal with the rest of the world, its because they pre-sold everything the nation owns on land, and the territorial waters to Kenya. If I was the rest of the world, I also would love Sheikh Shareef and company. How can you not like a man who gives away his national trust? Giving away a country is not a difficult task, the warlords sold most of it to foreign companies for the past twenty years, what is difficult is keeping what is left of your country in the face of foreign invaders whose interest lies in dividing the nation to pieces to share the wealth of a failed nation. Your last statement that "Moderate elements of the opposition such as Sheik Aweis can be accommodated" gives the impression that you wield some power to select who can be accommodated and who can not, this is amusing brother, the Shareef government needs accommodation, its holed up in Villa Somalia as we speak, waiting for rescue from Ethiopia in long 24 hours, speaking with grandiose words and supremacy is the root cause of Shareefs fall from grace, and its impossible for him to get back to his 2006 stature of a great fighter for his people's Sovereignty.

 

 

Brother Salman Writes:

 

Personally, I would have found a Sharif led government would be almost ideal; an honest Islamic character who leads technocrats..

 

Answer:

 

 

I respect your choice, but I pray that Allah does not question you though for his actions and allegiances, and those of his supporters, as I remember from your past posts that you were a sincere brother who loves the good for our people and faith.

 

Final advice:

 

Ali Radiyallahu said:

 

Know Men with the authenticity of the Haqq they follow. DO NOT Know the HAQQ by following MEN you trust

 

 

Nur

[Kashafa]

^^ You have spoken with kalimatul Xaq, Shaykhuna. May Allah reward you for your uncompromising stand, speaking the Xaq, in an age where hypocrisy, weakness, and defeatism are rampant.

 

To all the Munaafiqs that infest this site:

 

Brother, If Somalia was a woman, she is being raped right in front of our eyes, By Ethiopian, Ugandan, and Ethiopian Soldiers, while the Criminal Warlords are pinning the screaming woman on the ground, so that soldiers take turns, which infuruiates her brothers who are trying to free the woman and

you are suggesting to her brothers trying to free her from the rapist to be reasonable

and not to make trouble to endanger the woman's life?

It would behoove you to read and re-read that quote.

[Abu-Salman]

Originally posted by Nur:

The Ulima have equally asked Sharief to kick out the criminal, civilian killers AU forces out of Somalia, which he also failed to do so.

Why would Sh Sharif insists on AU troops to stay if the government was not in danger of collapse in the face of a disparate and poorly disciplined armed alliance, with opportunists on both sides?

 

Is there not a high probability that infighting would start again with little prospect of a new, more legitimate government?

 

Crucially, why don't those opposing Sh Sharif on Islamic grounds conform to Ulama's injunctions, respect their mediation or at least wait for their verdict or sanction before waging a full-scale war and claiming the moral high ground?

 

How would Al-Shabab & co gain the trust of Somalis, let alone the tolerance of the rest of the World, to form a "better" government?

 

Is there any point in a "government" that would constantly wage full-scale war against both the rest of the Somalis as well as the world, at this stage?

 

Most importantly, are we not risking to erode the sympathy gained by the Islamic Courts and more generally make the common man even more suspicious of claims to Shariah rule?

 

If we take the Sunnah as reference, did not the Prophet himself scw pledged one third of Madinah's agricultural output in returns for the end of its siege, while always srcupulously applying both the principles of Maslaha and Mafsada (benefit vs harm) and Shura (ie consultation, which may involve tribal elders, business leaders, technocrats and other respected personalities)?

 

Akhi, I am the last to resign to oppression but our supreme goals, whether it be to fully implement Shariah or liberate ourselves from Western-sponsored, Ethiopian/Kenyan colonialism could only be attained by methods which are themselves Shariah-compliant; the constitution is merely an agreed set of rules on how the government and its operations are regulated, which could be purged of its few Islamically ambivalent clauses (just like we agree on traffic regulations, corporate or schools charters etc)...

[Nur]

Akhi al xabiib you write:

 

Why would Sh Sharif insists on AU troops to stay if the government was not in danger of collapse in the face of a disparate and poorly disciplined armed alliance, with opportunists on both sides?

 

Precisely my brother, its a catch 22, he would not have collapsed if he stayed with his pack, remember, wasn't he the one who declared the Jihad against Ethiopia first, not the Shabab? and then wasn't he the first to have a secret meeting with the US Ambassador to Kenya? wasn't he the first to leave the country under Ethiopian occupation after his call for Jihad? and then wasn't he the first to break the alliance with the Asmara arm of the resistance? to form the Djibouti coalition with remnants of the Criminal Warlord government? wasn't he the one who accepted humiliating conditions for Ethiopia's acceptance for his government which practically made Somalia the 6th region of Ethiopia ( Kililka Lixaad)?

 

 

You write:

 

Is there not a high probability that infighting would start again with little prospect of a new, more legitimate government?

 

 

Akhi al Xabiib, close your eyes for once, imagine you are three summers back in history and the setting is Mogadishu, the Islamic Courts have just routed the Criminal Whorelords out of the city and they are on the run, the City and the country in jubilation for the first time in 15 years of artificial clan infighting created by the whorelords who were contracted by Ethiopia to dismantle Somalia, who in turn was a client regime for the Neocon administration's New World Disorder. For the next six months, the country was the most peaceful in all of Africa, our Puntland region at peace, our Somaliland at peace, our South at peace and the only group who were not at peace where the WHORELORDS who sold dead wadaad heads to their clients for hundreds of thousands of Dollars!

 

Airports opened, Mogadishu port opened for the first time in 15 years, schools began teaching, life became normal again, Somalis from all over the world flocked back home to claim their stolen properties which the Islamic Courts saw to it that they get immediately. Somalia became so peaceful by the declaration that Sharia will be the rule of the land that the nation saved heavily on the cost of police force. The community made sure that anyone found committing a crime is immediately reported to the courts and if reliable witnesses are found, Allah's law was applied, which made the only objection of the International Community to the Islamic courts that the Courts prohibited kids from watching the Olympic Games. and banning Drugs such as Khaat that are bleeding the nations economy and an enriching Kenya and Ethiopian drug growers.

 

As the Criminal Whorelords who were re-branded by their handlers as the Alliance to Fight Terrorism, all in a sudden, the clan division melted between the whorelords, because they were brothers under Ethiopia's patronage, their enemy; the Islamic Courts of Somalia, and to that end, they began their long march to come back anointed as the "Shareefs Islamic Government" stealing the show from those who laid their lives to stop the Ethiopian Invasion at Iidaale and Daaynunnaay in which hundreds of our Somali youth who came in response of Sheikh Shareefs call for Jihaad were martyred by the Ethiopian Mercenaries assisted by the US who claimed that they were only targeting three terrorists who were in the ranks of the resistance army, What a logic?

 

That short history was for you to know that the opposition were united back in 2006, the division was only caused by the man who you claim that he can unite the nation. If foreign intervention was not the case in 2006, I assure you, today Somalia would have been the most peaceful nation with the highest economic growth in Africa, at peace with the world and its neighbors, but, if you are a wounded prey, there is no kind beast with a good heart to let you limp to safety.

 

 

You write:

 

Crucially, why don't those opposing Sh Sharif on Islamic grounds conform to Ulama's injunctions, respect their mediation or at least wait for their verdict or sanction before waging a full-scale war and claiming the moral high ground?

 

Akhi Al Xabiib, Some times silence is a form of speach, specially when speech can ruin your weekend. As much as i respect our Ulima, they are no above the Sharia, they are humans, and can go wrong at times with the best intentions. As many Ulima who spoke for following Sheikh Shareef, there were more Ulima that kept silence. So, try and give some credit for the Silence vote.

 

The whorelords who are in government had a standing contract to assassinate ulima who were against the Ethiopian domination plan set for Somalia, and many Ulima were assassinated by the whorelords. That is why that there were no visible ulima present during the resistance against the Ethiopian Occupation, except for few reserved condemnation by some Ulima.

 

 

You write:

 

How would Al-Shabab & co gain the trust of Somalis, let alone the tolerance of the rest of the World, to form a "better" government?

 

There are two types of Somalis; those who live under the Shabaab administration, and those on the internet. I asked a youg man whom I met during my Umra who was from Baidoa how he feels about the Shabaab Movement, here is what he said:

 

Nur, It is the best time ever in our city, all the people are equal, Jileyc iyo Jereer, no one is superior to other, no one is afraid from a warlord robbing their business, we feel very safe, and mind you I am not a Salafi, I am a Sufi, ahlul Tariiqa, and I can not say but the best about this movement.

 

 

You write:

 

Is there any point in a "government" that would constantly wage full-scale war against both the rest of the Somalis as well as the world, at this stage?

 

 

Akhi Al Kareem. No, there is no point, but that is only your perception which you have developed like many others who believe in the Media War against the Shabaab to depict them as a bunch of kids who enjoy fighting all the time. You need to watch less TV and talk to people more akhi. But I will tell you who is in constant wars; its the United States and its allies against Islam and Muslims, which they have marked as their enemies after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

 

The Somali resistance did not invade Addis Ababa, nor Nairobi, nor Kampala. It was the new American policy of pre-preemptive wars that encouraged Ethiopia to invade Somalia with the flimsiest of pretexts. Ethiopia after two wars sees Somalia as a threat that can challenge its claim to the western Somali region that it dominates and divides along clan lines. So, it supported all the whorelords for the past 20 years to weaken and dismantle the Somalia in order for Ethiopia to secure the first Nation Status in the region and to further divide them into small regions to serve strategic goals of Ethiopia's financial sponsors.

 

 

You write:

 

Most importantly, are we not risking to erode the sympathy gained by the Islamic Courts and more generally make the common man even more suspicious of claims to Shariah rule?

 

We are not risking it brother, we are doing through the Media sponsored by those who hate the Sharia. here is an example I wrote on another thread of how the Media reports:

 

A Pakistani guy is sitting on a bench in Central Park, New York, in a nice day when a dog attacks a little boy, the Pakistani jumps out to help the boy and ends up saving the boy and killing the dog, the new York Time reporter shows up and tells the man he will write a great story about a New Yorker hero who saves the life of a little boy from attack of a fierce dog in central Park, The Pakistani politely tells the reporter that he is not a New Yorker, then the Reporter suggests, to write about an American Tourist hero who saves a little boy from a fierce dog in central Park, the Pakistani guy again tells the Reporter that he is not an American tourist, that he is a Pakistani tourist, the next day the new York times headline read " A Pakistani terrorist attacks and kills a harmless pet dog in central park"

 

When the Shabaab caught and sentenced 4 armed criminal gangs who suffocated the public and robbed people at gun point, guess what the western Media wrote: Al Shabaab to amputate kids who stole mobile phones!

 

What the Western Media will not report is the thousands of innocent civilians they are killing in Afghanistan and Iraq and Pakistan while chasing a fictitious enemy of their own creation.

 

You write:

 

If we take the Sunnah as reference, did not the Prophet himself scw pledged one third of Madinah's agricultural output in returns for the end of its siege, while always srcupulously applying both the principles of Maslaha and Mafsada (benefit vs harm) and Shura (ie consultation, which may involve tribal elders, business leaders, technocrats and other respected personalities)?

 

 

Akhi Al Ghaali.

 

Your analogy would be appropriate if you also include that the Prophet SAWS and His Companions were persecuted unjustly by Qureish, Migrated, and finally won the war against Qureish. Unlike the Prophet who suffered with His companions, Shareef, spent the two years of the stuggle to liberate the country from the Ethiopian Invasion in exile totally detached from the movement.

 

The principle of Maslaxa and Mafsadah in the Science of the Moral of the Islamic Laws ( Maqaasdiul Sharia) is abused at will by non competent pseudo-scholars who have not studied specialized original books such as Al Muwaafaqaat by Al Shaatibi, and the Al Furooq by Al Qaraafi. The first Maslaxa is to secure the continuty of faith, here the Prophet SAWS has never compromised, he was even offered to become King of Qureish if he can accommodate some changes of the new faith. After faith was secured, right to life , property etc. was secured by Sharia, so without Sharia, we are not secure. All of the segments of society has a binding responsibility to secure their faith and lives, their common interests should all merge not diverge.

 

You write:

 

Akhi, I am the last to resign to oppression but our supreme goals, whether it be to fully implement Shariah or liberate ourselves from Western-sponsored, Ethiopian/Kenyan colonialism could only be attained by methods which are themselves Shariah-compliant; the constitution is merely an agreed set of rules on how the government and its operations are regulated, which could be purged of its few Islamicaly ambivalent clauses (just like we agree on traffic regulations, corporate or schools charters etc)...

 

Brother are you asking a wounded man who has an arrow sticking in his rear end to sit down ? Government is what comes next after getting rid of a mean gorilla on your back, that is when you breathe true freedom, and that is what is missing. Today, all of the TFG are going to Addis Ababa to get instructions of how to run Somalia, is that Freedom, Sovereignty? if we have to be slaves, let us have the choice to choose our Master, its best we become slaves for Allah SWT. Lesser than Allah, why become a slave for Ethiopia, why not ask America to annex Somalia directly and give all Somalis status like Puerto Riccans? at least that way we become the Ethiopian bosses and the regional guardians?

 

 

Nur

[Abu-Salman]

Let's make Akhi the hypothesis that Al Shabab, Xisbul Islaam and their allies succeed in overthrowing Sh Sharif: what are the plan and strategy to form a coalition and engage the rest of Somalis as well as the World (both hostile to a large extent)?

 

Would a Shabab-led entity give more credence to Shariah rule than the rest of the Islamic Courts (who may enjoy more widespread sympathy) by assuring this time the continuity of authority (on which that of Shariah rests)?

 

Above all, would Al Shabab & co start listening unconditionally to international Ulamas of high caliber from the very day the TFG is dissolved?

 

In a nutshell, how and through which detailed processes exactely are we going to better secure the prime Maslaha of the continuity of faith under Al Shabab & co?

 

You may note akhi al ghaali, that as we speak,some brothers are involved in Da'wah activities and teaching in Nairobi, Addis or elsewhere and that if those regimes feel threatened, they may focus more on colonising both mentally and physically Somali Galbeed or the NFD; Somaliland and Puntland also could feel targeted etc...

 

 

PS: Let's make abstraction of past events and assume that Western interferences are a given.

[Nur]

Akhi Abu Salman

 

I haven't forgotten about your very thought provoking questions, I was just side tracked by other discussions on Science and God, so, excuse me for the delay in response. InshAllah, I will come up with my responses soon.

 

 

Nur

[AYOUB]

Originally posted by Nur:

We are in June 2009, exactly, three years later after the Islamic Courts Union took power in Mogadishu from the criminal warlords

 

In 2006, the Islamic Courts Union was an alliance of most Islamic groups. The other alliance was the Criminal Warlords alliance which was humiliated and one of its leaders driven to drown in the Indian ocean.

 

In 2009, there is a different formation, a minority of the ICU are in alliance with Criminal Warlords, while the majority of their past allies are in the opposition and about to take over Mogadishu again, ironically in the same summer season.

 

My advice above for the courts in Summer of 2006 still holds true for the new opposition of the Islamic alliance.

Nur

Nurow, saw the reply late and I'm disappointed. A lot has changed since 2006 and I think your advice needs updating. The tactics used by the Youths in opposition and the nature of their opponents has changed and I expected your advice to reflect it. Hotel and offices have been bombed, while both sides are sending invitations to foreigners.

 

 

Shouldn't Sharif's conciliatory gestures been tested to the limit before the declarations of war? His stance is very different to the previous Colonels and Generals, and in 2006 it was the Satanic Alliance that declared the war, is fair to compare the two situations?

We all remember the summer of 06, but, have you forgotten its winter? What's the plan this time round regarding what you dubbed ‘sustaining power’ ? All that to worry about after/when/if everything settles down in favour of the Youths, surely that's asking too much of the long suffering Xamar population. How could the asking the public to be "patient" with war against Sh. Sharif be worse than asking them to be "patient" with the peace with Sh. Sharif (cost/benefit)?

 

I'm no military expert nor scholar but what were the risks if the Youths opted trying to flex their muscles from within Sh. Sharifs administration.

 

Last but not least, since it's now Sheikhs Vs Sheikh, which scholars do the opposition refer to? How do they convey their Fatawa to the masses since your advice is to avoid journalists?Shouldn' t the Youths at least use the media to present their long term local and international political objectives of which even interested parties like myself are clueless about?

[Muriidi]

in ay warka cadeeyaan ..