Anarcho-capitalism in Somalia?

[Alle-ubaahne]

^^Niman yahow buuqa maad joojisaan aan gaalka soo islaamiyee!

 

sheeko kale ay idinkaga cadahay anigana gaalkaan lugihiisa nagu soo doontay aan rabaa inaan halmar maqaalinta kusoo jiido!

 

N.B. caano geel, siyaasada iyo diinta isku lab!

[Caano Geel]

So its agreed that we are all in disagreement about what type of government is suitable! Does that mean we have the de facto Kritarchy "state" (in big quotes).

 

SamW - dont be so demeaning to others, please, and I'll share the sentiment wrt the ideal theocratic state, well up until we find a messiah, however describing the current pseudo- administration as "wholly not egregious!" is grossly misleading. The problem is that the power brokers in this group have disgustingly bloodstained hands and the greed to match- any civilised society would of kept them in isolated cells far out in sea so that their stench doesn't violate the nostrils of their victims.

 

Gavin:

wrt to Xeer, lets call it what it is, its just customary law, every culture has one - and most share the basics i.e. don't kill you neighbours (though we somali's seem to have forgotten the basis of ours) - The problem with customary law is that its local and heterogeneous even within an indigenous society, let alone a global one. This is very different to the 'natural law' in the strict and universal sense that a Kritarchy defines -- therefore how do propose to reconcile the two.

 

If your thoughts are along the lines of some form market evolution process whereby different ideals compete with each other and the *best* - in some yet undefined measure of fitness wins out, then sadly I think this is idealism, if nothing else, the will of the strong always gets enforced, the basic principal of a market. Further stable and flexible and democratic governments already perform this task of continually re-evaluating the value their laws, via the poll stations - without the risk and uncertainty of a market process.

 

Theoretically there are a number issues with notions of AnCap, first there is a question of what are the natural laws its based around? second, are they mutable or do they remain fixed? third, how is their value objectively measured? how is the power they afford distributed?

 

I think the market analogies are appealing because they side step most of the important questions by saying that processes will compete for their value while implicitly defining it from their outcomes. But this is cheap. If nothing else, take a technical viewpoint .

 

There is nothing to say that a market based process of continual judgement and re-evaluation will not provide the quality of people desire, in fact given the right conditions they will probably work, but their lack of appearance and staying power - when they have appeared, say something about the risks they entail. On the whole they are a lot riskier.

 

For example, lets take the fitness of any individual with a society and ask what it depends on. Its difficult and wrong to say that its independent from the services their receive from their society. Now if we make the accurate assumption that the service that individual receives from a society is related to their status - then an AnCap society induces either (i) syndication and group from around common interest, especially if individuals cannot compete alone- in much the same way as political parties form and compete for power - hence at the very best your back to the old state problem, or like somalia, they kill each other (ii) or you have a free-rider problem were individuals find it more rewarding to take advantage of the generosity of a few that may be willing to contribute to the welfare of all and such systems fall apart very very quickly.

 

In short a Kritarchy i a very interesting system to study, it says something about the interaction between our notions values and cooperation and market theory is elegant. But this is not something to practice on peoples lives. Our flirtation with what approached AnCap suggested that it leads to producing syndicated genocidal maniacs which devour people and could give cockroaches a run for their money in their staying power. So we're hoping for some form of centralised governance.

 

btw - iraq and iran are not democracies, they are the spoils of war - in both countries the institutions in power are unpopular and have grabbed/been given power after unrest, hence do not represent the choices of people with free will - and we dont want that

 

 

Anyhow why do you support the AnCap

--

Ubaahne,

walaal, hore u soco oo ninka yuu-san kaa fakan, laakiinse, aniga in aan diin iyo siyaasad in aan isku qaso ma jecli

[Faarax-Brawn]

Hello Gavin!

 

Have you factored the effects of Islamic business ethics in your study?

 

As you know,Somalis are 99% muslims & every aspect of their lives,including capitalism,must encompass some sort of islamic rule. Majority of the larger scale modern day Somali Business men are quite religious,who tend to follow the Quran.

 

My question is,if Most Somalis follow the Holy Quran(For good business ethics),then,is that really true anarcho-capitalism?

 

Whereby,anarchism is the complete absence of all (business)laws?

 

Perhaps,what i should really ask is,if law enforcement,courts & other stately guiding institiuons are absent from an anarcho-captalist state,then,what guides it?

[Fabregas]

Iran is a democracy, because they have a higher electoral turnout than the U.S.A. Thus the people in power are no more unpopular than say the U.K oR U.S.A. Iran is the most educated state in the middle east, with the highest number of woman in education and employment.

[Caano Geel]

GJ

you misunderstand the fundamental principal of democracy, choice, not participation.

[gavin]

Just an FYI, I made this thread because I wanted to gauge the level of liberty that Somalis wished for themselves.

 

It seems that Somalis wish for smaller government, but also a more static law-base in Shari'a/Xeer which would be more difficult for the average citizen to modify (compared to the United States). It seems to me that the level of 'liberty', if it could ever be measured, would be higher in the US, Switzerland and Netherlands, than in this wished-for Somali nation.

 

I have been strongly considering learning more of the language, buying property and living in Somalia some years from now, once I had been able to secure a bit of security. I love liberty and seek out the nation of people who love it most. So, this is one way I have been trying to figure out how much liberty the Somalis want for themselves. I've also been quizzing a local Somali who has not yet grown tired of my questions.

[Fabregas]

There is no fundamental principle of democracy period!

[OLOL]

people who want to have or see a government of some sort established in Somalia are few parasites who thrive on nepotism and corruption. As we all aware of , most third world and african governments are led by incompetent men who call themselves leaders but in reality are clannish buffoons, opportunistic elitists, warlord thugs or authoritarian military men . They abuse power and accumulate wealth (the hand-outs from international donors) at the expenses of the suffering masses and then let thir cliques also benefit of this trickle-down embezzlement of public funds. Never in their mind crosses to develop and invest.

 

Somalis rebelled and stood up to such systems led by such men. Through the last 17 years of civil war and insanity, the Somali business community thrived astronomically thanks to no government intervention of the market dynamics. There were no taxation, no tariffs and no limitations of trade and commerce. Thousands of Somalis abroad also contributed a hefty amount of money into this unregulated and booming market.

 

I for, one as a student of international trade and law oppose to see big government established in Somalia. I am for free markets but also I am for equal opportunity and competition for all.

 

If there is a need for government, it must be a small one with limited time, powers and mandate.

 

Call that whatever, but that is what most Somalis want. No corruption, no nepotism, no big brother. Some Somalis are natural born entrepreneurs, while others are lazy leechers. The ones who advocate for government are leechers who can't earn their livelihood in a free-market based economy. They have limited creativity and probably were never thought to work to survive. These are here with us in the Diaspora and sit idle and collet welfare. The business-minded Somalis are working hard as professionals, rising college kids, buying trucks, have investment pools and travel as far to China, Hong Kong, Thailand and have their financial base in Dubai. Somalis are venturing to open business opportunities in remote places as Mali, Chad, Gabon. Some are even braving in the gang-filled slums in South Africa to run shops and make money. None of these people want to see a big government in Somalia.

[Fiqikhayre]

People there you have it, Criminal Olol just admitted that he's a qarandiid, who is only looking after his own economical interests and well-being at the expense of the stateless Somalis, that are dying everywhere.

 

Today I saw a report by Siidi who is a famous photographer from Jowhar a city 90km's to the north of Mogadishu who took some pictures of PM Gheedi's arrival in Puntland and his trip to the police academy in Carmo city some 240km's south of Mogadishu.

 

Siidi said that he talked with the Puntland officials and The Chamber of commerce in Puntland about the new port and airport tariffs and in his own words, he said that it seems that there is a major differece between Puntland businessmen and businessmen from Mogadishu, who it seems have never seen anykind of tariffs and which made them cry out and stop all kind of imports to Mogadishu port unless ofcourse those tariffs were removed.

 

Siidi said that the Mogadishu's businessmen's behaviour was due to Mogadishu businessmen never having heard or saw any tariifs or taxation in the 17 years of chaos and that's why they're screaming and crying so hard whereas the businessmen in Puntland seemed relaxed about it because they didn't threat to boycott the port if the tariifs weren't removed.

 

Siidi was astonished at the difference of the two sets of businessmen.

[Taleexi]

Neither do I want to see a big government in Somalia for many reasons

[Taako Man]

Originally posted by OLOL:

[QB] people who want to have or see a government of some sort established in Somalia are few parasites who thrive on nepotism and corruption.

So only crazy people want government and those who love anarchy are fighting for justice? That is logic that looters and occupiers of land have.

 

 

Somalis rebelled and stood up to such systems led by such men. Through the last 17 years of civil war and insanity, the Somali business community thrived astronomically thanks to no government intervention of the market dynamics. There were no taxation, no tariffs and no limitations of trade and commerce. Thousands of Somalis abroad also contributed a hefty amount of money into this unregulated and booming market.

Somalis rebelled a dictatorship. Any Somali would tell you that. Only people who are making a crap load of money thorugh illegal means would tell you they don't want to be taxed. Taxation helps build schools, hospitals, and security apparatus. Those who don't want this are something else.

 

 

Call that whatever, but that is what most Somalis want. No corruption, no nepotism, no big brother. Some Somalis are natural born entrepreneurs, while others are lazy leechers. The ones who advocate for government are leechers who can't earn their livelihood in a free-market based economy. They have limited creativity and probably were never thought to work to survive. These are here with us in the Diaspora and sit idle and collet welfare.

Free market or not, having a government in whatever form is the way the world works. No government means there are no schools. Atleast not free ones, that I suspect you have taken advantage of in the west. Only the rich survive in Somalia (Relative to Somalia). Your average Cambarro and Cali will not be educated which in turn leads to a whole generation like the generation we've had for 17 years.

 

Government's have been taxing people since forever. Cumar ibn Khattab (RA) enforced this well manshallah.

 

 

The business-minded Somalis are working hard as professionals, rising college kids, buying trucks, have investment pools and travel as far to China, Hong Kong, Thailand and have their financial base in Dubai. Somalis are venturing to open business opportunities in remote places as Mali, Chad, Gabon. Some are even braving in the gang-filled slums in South Africa to run shops and make money. None of these people want to see a big government in Somalia.

Notice that these Somalis are making money in places with government. The only ones who benefit from no government are the scrap merchants and looters who occupied and filled there stomachs with 17 years of Xaraan ku naax lacag and bililiqo.

[Alle-ubaahne]

Originally posted by OLOL:

people who want to have or see a government of some sort established in Somalia are few parasites who thrive on nepotism and corruption. As we all aware of , most third world and african governments are led by incompetent men who call themselves leaders but in reality are clannish buffoons, opportunistic elitists, warlord thugs or authoritarian military men . They abuse power and accumulate wealth (the hand-outs from international donors) at the expenses of the suffering masses and then let thir cliques also benefit of this trickle-down embezzlement of public funds. Never in their mind crosses to develop and invest.

 

Somalis rebelled and stood up to such systems led by such men. Through the last 17 years of civil war and insanity, the Somali business community thrived astronomically thanks to no government intervention of the market dynamics. There were no taxation, no tariffs and no limitations of trade and commerce. Thousands of Somalis abroad also contributed a hefty amount of money into this unregulated and booming market.

 

I for, one as a student of international trade and law oppose to see big government established in Somalia. I am for free markets but also I am for equal opportunity and competition for all.

 

If there is a need for government, it must be a small one with limited time, powers and mandate.

 

Call that whatever, but that is what most Somalis want. No corruption, no nepotism, no big brother. Some Somalis are natural born entrepreneurs, while others are lazy leechers. The ones who advocate for government are leechers who can't earn their livelihood in a free-market based economy. They have limited creativity and probably were never thought to work to survive. These are here with us in the Diaspora and sit idle and collet welfare. The business-minded Somalis are working hard as professionals, rising college kids, buying trucks, have investment pools and travel as far to China, Hong Kong, Thailand and have their financial base in Dubai. Somalis are venturing to open business opportunities in remote places as Mali, Chad, Gabon. Some are even braving in the gang-filled slums in South Africa to run shops and make money. None of these people want to see a big government in Somalia.

That is right walaahi, and I agree with you entirely; those who seek government tend to be fraudulistic, Shaxaad-ku-nool, ma-shaqeystayaal and mere boosters who live on the public taxations and celebrate for the becoming of their uncles as the head of the state. A prime example of this is Taako Man and Sakhar who are overly intoxicated with the position of their uncle that they lean on to be lifeline of their existance!

 

Any government for Somalia should be an Islamic one who is geared towards the protection of its people from the outside enemy.

 

The days when one had to say, Aabaheey ayaa wasiir ah, abtigeey ayaa gabadha Yeey qabo, are long gone. No more nepotism. The only respect one can get in working for a somali government is to be a mujaahid who works for the Ummah and expects the rewards from Allah alone.

 

With that, its impossible for these stoogies to say we are seeking a public position to enhance our pride within the society!

[Khalaf]

Originally posted by OLOL:

Somalis rebelled and stood up to such systems led by such men. Through the last

17 years of civil war and insanity, the Somali business community thrived

astronomically thanks to no government intervention of the market dynamics.

Originally posted by Taako Man:

The only ones who benefit from no government are the scrap merchants and looters who occupied and

filled there stomachs with 17 years of Xaraan ku naax lacag and bililiqo.

_____________________________________________

 

 

ummm on da the topic, Gavin all muslims across the world want Shariah a pure Islamic based government, if there were free elections Islamic parties would easily win, but the stage is not set because there is much corruption in the muslim lands and its against the interest of world powers for the muslims to have Islamic goverance, ie oil natural resources will be nationalized ect. 2. today there is no shariah state, the Irans, Talibans ect none are Islamic based, far from it.....Islamic Shariah in action is what produced the Glory of Muslim Spain ect-democrasy, choice, freedom, protection of the weak, techonlogy, science, fair business, ect come only from Islam. What Somalia needs is a government like any other country, a society cant function in anarchy, where the weak are oppressed ect.....that is against the laws of God and against the conscience of noble men.

[Pi]

The Oromo Oaf turned Guriceel Goon turned Eretarian egghead OLOL , I think, said it all. Government and Law is not good for his buisness aspirations. With no government, criminals from Guriceel like OLOL can continue to

 

1. Keep their loot and plunder from the civil war

2. Join the international drug trade. Cocaine and Heroine are good buiseness ventures

3. Place tariffes and taxes on rivers (remember Imam Indhacadde?) and other natural resources, thereby robbing and ravaging poor farmers and families.

4. Destroy the whole Somali Environment, from deforestation (scrap coal merchants as the General calls them), denudement, and perhaps even allowing foreign companies to dump toxic wastes.

5. More Isbaaros and miltia checkpoints, which only to serve to rob the downtrodden communities of the south.

 

So much for the spirit of entrepreneurship. This is what happens when illiterate apes decide to become buisenessmen. :rolleyes:

[Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar]

I have been strongly considering learning more of the language, buying property and living in Somalia some years from now, once I had been able to secure a bit of security. I love liberty and seek out the nation of people who love it most. So, this is one way I have been trying to figure out how much liberty the Somalis want for themselves. I've also been quizzing a local Somali who has not yet grown tired of my questions.

 

By all means, go ahead. Before you venture in that journey, a little advice, though: Hire a few tikniko [or 'technical,' an improvised fighting vehicle] with a dozen of moooryaans [freelance militias] and you are ready to go. Join your ranks, the warlords.