Anarcho-capitalism in Somalia?

[miles-militis]

Gavin – do not be hoodwinked by the constant hostile and far-fetched wishful desires of the Fish and Chips generation stranded in the cold in North America and Western Europe. Majority of Somalis in Somalia [sic], and this is by extension a generalised estimate on my part would prefer a Federal system of governance very close to that of the US which extends autonomy to the district level: the model from which the current TFG has been moulded with its warps and all. Panacea not, but wholly not egregious!

 

From the onset, war-weary Somalis in Mogadishu and its environs embraced the ICU purely for the purported ideals and presumed virtues possible Islamic governance would encompass and only celebrated in the good book – the Qur’an.

 

With all the promises and the supposed therapeutic alleviations that Islamic governance would bring along evaporated shortly after the rise of the ICU, for the general public rapidly came to the realisation the ICU leadership could hardly meet what a modern nation state would require with signs of their shortcomings surfacing a couple of months of their being on the throne. The case was not that different with the Taliban or elsewhere.

 

However, the experience was slightly different elsewhere in the country, and a classic example of that would be Puntland and Somaliland both of which institutionalized a sort of federal model of governance at different levels and with different results, and whilst the judiciary circuits in both administrations adhere to some form of Islamic Shari’a, neither desires to effect the strict format of the Shari’a law, for they could hardly deliver on such premise albeit the desired object to Sparta’s gates was just that.

 

At will, both administrations embarked on a model of governance which was deemed suitable to their way of life.

 

The primary reason that Islamic governance would fit not Somalia, or any other Muslim nation at the moment including Saudi Arabia, is purely due to the fact that Somalis alike their counterparts elsewhere in the Muslim world lack a principal ingredient required in implementing Islamic Shari’a as the core mechanism of holistic governance in all aspects of modern nation state - human capital. Attempts to effect the said had been made elsewhere, and unfortunately failed miserably with the results being exploitation of Shari’a law to the extent of degrading it to a shameful glimpse of itself, what it is meant to be, or designed to perform, thusly giving it a bad name.

 

It is the fantasy of idealism of what an Islamic state would bring along that which appeals to most people herein and elsewhere, however their knowledge of Islam in itself as a way of life is so dismal it lends itself to caricature ignorance, if not the unfortunate state of their being born into it. Query along should your heart desires; not only astonished shall you arise, but despair shall descend at once! Ask about Islam, you shall find them devouring Wikipedia as their sole source of reference (O’ dear!). Suggest for some to live in any Muslim country, flooded you shall be with complaints, if not chorus of disapproval of their being rigid and crude.

 

I shall leave there,

Tata…

[gavin]

Originally posted by Samurai Warrior:

 

However, the experience was slightly different elsewhere in the country, and a classic example of that would be Puntland and Somaliland both of which institutionalized a sort of federal model of governance at different levels and with different results, and whilst the judiciary circuits in both administrations adhere to some form of Islamic Shari’a, neither desires to effect the strict format of the Shari’a law, for they could hardly deliver on such premise albeit the desired object to Sparta’s gates was just that.

Beautifully written reply. A quick question, just to clarify. Somaliland and Puntland use Shari'a law, and not a traditional Somali law? (Xeer, I think it is called)

[Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar]

This gentleman is misinformed if he thinks Soomaaliya is a casebook study. Sorry to disappoint, but the reality is otherwise. Hundreds of thousands of lives had been lost and millions displaced in Diaspora in this ideal 'beacon' and 'unique' you speak of.

 

Once again, Soomaaliya and Soomaalis are not a casebook academical study. Soomaalis may be 'libertarian' in your eyes, due to their natural nomadism and fierce loyalty of paradigm to ancient concept of laws, which it seems you are familiar with -- xeer and later substituted by pseudo-Islaamic laws. We however yearn a government, governing laws with a sound justice and equality and liberty.

[Alle-ubaahne]

^And that is only Islam, if you may ADD to it, yaa MMA!

 

Hey, Gavin, welcome to SOL, and I want you please to accept Islam and say :

 

laa elaha ila Allahu, Mohamad rasulu Allah

 

which means, there is no god but Allah and Mohamed is His messenger.

 

for sure, you will be victorious in this world and the next. you will become happy forever, and you will never worry about the things that worry you in this life.

 

Please say that and accept Islam, and the benefit will be something that goes beyond your imaginations. By Allah's grace, you may enter the paradise.

 

Now, please accept my sincere call! Be one of us, and join us in the religion of true brotherhood, of humanity and of progress.

 

You can do it, Gavin.

[Wisdom_Seeker]

^^^ Yaa, cajiiba

 

Take your time Gavin.

 

You just don’t have to say those words. You would have to imprint them on your heart and conscience. The sooner the better.

 

It is merely a request and not an order.

[ansaar17]

Originally posted by Samurai Warrior:

Gavin – do not be hoodwinked by the constant hostile and far-fetched wishful desires of the Fish and Chips generation stranded in the cold in North America and Western Europe. Majority of Somalis in Somalia [sic], and this is by extension a generalised estimate on my part would prefer a Federal system of governance very close to that of the US which extends autonomy to the district level: the model from which the current TFG has been moulded with its warps and all. Panacea not, but wholly not egregious!

 

From the onset, war-weary Somalis in Mogadishu and its environs embraced the ICU purely for the purported ideals and presumed virtues possible Islamic governance would encompass and only celebrated in the good book – the Qur’an.

 

With all the promises and the supposed therapeutic alleviations that Islamic governance would bring along evaporated shortly after the rise of the ICU, for the general public rapidly came to the realisation the ICU leadership could hardly meet what a modern nation state would require with signs of their shortcomings surfacing a couple of months of their being on the throne. The case was not that different with the Taliban or elsewhere.

 

However, the experience was slightly different elsewhere in the country, and a classic example of that would be Puntland and Somaliland both of which institutionalized a sort of federal model of governance at different levels and with different results, and whilst the judiciary circuits in both administrations adhere to some form of Islamic Shari’a, neither desires to effect the strict format of the Shari’a law, for they could hardly deliver on such premise albeit the desired object to Sparta’s gates was just that.

 

At will, both administrations embarked on a model of governance which was deemed suitable to their way of life.

 

The primary reason that Islamic governance would fit not Somalia, or any other Muslim nation at the moment including Saudi Arabia, is purely due to the fact that Somalis alike their counterparts elsewhere in the Muslim world lack a principal ingredient required in implementing Islamic Shari’a as the core mechanism of holistic governance in all aspects of modern nation state - human capital. Attempts to effect the said had been made elsewhere, and unfortunately failed miserably with the results being exploitation of Shari’a law to the extent of degrading it to a shameful glimpse of itself, what it is meant to be, or designed to perform, thusly giving it a bad name.

 

It is the fantasy of idealism of what an Islamic state would bring along that which appeals to most people herein and elsewhere, however their knowledge of Islam in itself as a way of life is so dismal it lends itself to caricature ignorance, if not the unfortunate state of their being born into it. Query along should your heart desires; not only astonished shall you arise, but despair shall descend at once! Ask about Islam, you shall find them devouring Wikipedia as their sole source of reference (O’ dear!). Suggest for some to live in any Muslim country, flooded you shall be with complaints, if not chorus of disapproval of their being rigid and crude.

 

I shall leave there,

Tata…

Are you a muslim or not?

[Caano Geel]

^ what a ishtupid question what difference does it make, does every muslim agree with you? or are they not a muslim if they dont

 

MMA - i agree with u in the majority, SAmW and Gavin will post my response after work

[ansaar17]

The question wasn't directed at you. let them answer for himself.

[miles-militis]

Gavin – both administrations employ the former Somali republic’s doctrine at the judiciary level which was a nice blend of Shari’a law tossed in with a pinch of ‘Xeer’ which in itself, mid you, is derived from the Shari’a law, only modified to suit customary communal caprices.

 

ansaar17 – for the sake of this discussion, let us assume I were a Muslim, shall we?

 

MMA – Somalia is the perfect case study for students of comparative politics, societal evolution, history and modern nation state edifice.

 

Tata…

[Fabregas]

Originally posted by Samurai Warrior:

Gavin – do not be hoodwinked by the constant hostile and far-fetched wishful desires of the Fish and Chips generation stranded in the cold in North America and Western Europe.

 

 

What fish and chips generationa are you referring to? Gavin suggested that "an anarchic system" would be the best system for Somalia. Clearly, we do not believe that this would be system. Rather than adressing the rights and wrongs of his political ideals for Somalia, you have gone of on a semi rant against the implementation of the shariah!

 

Majority of Somalis in Somalia [sic], and this is by extension a generalised estimate on my part would prefer a Federal system of governance very close to that of the US which extends autonomy to the district level:

 

Somalia is not the U..S.A.Matter of fact Somalia is not even Ethiopia. Secondly, this federlisation that you and other so wonderfully describe, is nothing short a tribal federation of Somalia. In which all Somali dsitricts, states and political seats are divided up into tribal lines. Somalis are not divided into state or territorial lines rather tribal groups. How would the federal Somalia solve the problem of places like Ceerigabo, Kismayo and several other places claimed by different sub clans?Furthermore, how do you solve the problem of the independent sub states in Somalia such as Puntland and Somaliland? Puntland behaves as a defacto state within Somalia and Somaliland behaves as if it is completely independent. As i said before a federal Somalia= a Somalia divided along tribal semi states!

 

 

the model from which the current TFG has been moulded with its warps and all. Panacea not, but wholly not egregious!

 

A 4.5 formula, in which an entire group of people have been classified as worth half of their other citizens.

 

[Fiqikhayre]

Gavin first of all, Welcome to SOL's political fora before I indulge any further into your inquiry.

 

First of all, Puntland State of Somalia are the pioneers of the federal system currently preferred in the Transitional Federal Republic of Somalia. I prefer right now the federal system, which is used in the US and the Federal republic of Germany which allows every State and State districts to have it's own local based government, where they can deal with their own issues more efficiently than having to rely on Mogadishu or a central government to do their own affairs from them.

 

Secondly the Somali Xeer is actually based on Islamic Sharia' and it is only an extension of that same Islamic Sharia, the law has to come from some where and because all of Somalis adhere to Islaam it is only logical that they incorporate Islamic Sharia into their 'Xeer'. So I would like to request from you obvsiously you being alien to Somali culture and history, which is not your fault to not see the two laws Islamic Sharia and Somali Xeer as two distict forms of laws, but two sets of the same coin which complement one another and in fact they're compatible because most of Somali Xeer is based on Islamic Sharia and if one aspect of Somali Xeer would go against Islamic Sharia then it would be no longer used by the Somali Xeer, so Somali Xeer cannot be used for something that is opposite Islamic Sharia.

 

Now the Somali situation is very complex but I'd like to let you know what my thoughts on it are.

 

Firstly I would like to see a federal system upheld in Somalia in order to bring lasting peace to all of Somalia. Secondly after a period of time I would want and demand a Islamic state. This is the ultimate goal but how do we get there is the question?

 

gavin an Islamic State cannot be created right now from semi-anarchic Somalia unless you want to create a futile extremist Islamic State that will crumple from inside and internal pressure rather than from external pressure because the creation of an Islamic State needs time and it has to come from the masses and people's hearts rather than being 'imposed' on them. All Somalis are muslims and nobody can be against the formation of an Islamic State that is based on Sharia but that State needs time to be formed. We all have seen when people or nations states fail and then as a last refuge create an Islamic State as we have seen in Afghanistan, where the people after the downfall of the Taliban flocked to the barbershops in order to cut off and shave off their beards. Afghan culture is even more stricter than Somali culture and women in Somalia play a very important role throughout society. Now we see Somalis who are themselves not islamists per se, who listen to music, go to clubs and are generally ‘liberal’ and would be considered ’moderate muslims and who are generally 'integrated' into western culture calling for an Islamic State only to complain afterwards and condemn the same state they were advocating for when their expectations didn’t meet the reality.

 

An Islamic State is and will not be perfect state as some people thing and such as state to develop it needs a lot of time.

 

Forceful revolutions which are futile and pursued accordingly by Al-Qaeda and Taliban ideology is not what we desire. For a lasting and prospering Islamic State we need a grass-root approach from the bottom-up first that goes on with the political reform.

 

Somali culture of right now is corrupt and their are many ills in it, the people are muslims but many of their actions are not Islamic. We need to change that. We need a common strategy and ideology because many of the callers of a Islamic state such as non orthodox muslims and extremists who only know how to call for a futile war and on how to call for the killing of many people without having the right attitude, preparation nor the unifying and common ideology at place in the first place will result in a division because in the first place the right guidelines wasn’t followed, that’s why it will result in the crumpling of the state from within.

 

This futile revolutionists are usually made up by people who hold totally different viewpoints ranging from psychopathic extremists, jihadists, 'moderates' and other deviant sects that despise each other. We need a common ideology put in place firstly.

[Fiqikhayre]

First of all what we require is peace in order to purify and educate by teaching to the people the authentic Salafi ideology (many know this ideology as 'wahhabism' although it is a derogatory exercise devised by the British and it has negative connotations to it but nevertheless it is the most correct form of Islaam is it adheres to the original and orthodox islaam, which the British at that time wanted to suppress because for political reason and because they feared it very much, that's why they encouraged sufism and other forms of Islaam, which they say is a 'moderates way of Islaam compatible witht that of the west because it is 'peaceful' (in other words not threating us and our interests).

 

We have a Somali nation and people now, who engage in all sort of ills and wrongdoings and that we need to change, the people have to be changed by showing them the right way to behave.

[Fiqikhayre]

Somalis whether they're young or old, men or women, boy or girl all spent billions of Dollars pro year for drugs which stimulates many other social illnesses and physical and medical illnesses as well. This drug is khat and because of that khat many Somali men cannot function and that's why you will see that in Somalia over 80% who work and produce the daily bread for their families are indeed women. Many of this women sell khat themselves which is very ironic. The men are no where to be seen, in Puntland many live on 'Shaxaad', this is a city mans way of survivial, one lives by not working but by living off their 'relatives', friends and fellow clan members. We Somalis are generous people and it is considered rude to not share food or not paying for people that you know. One might come into the restuarant and eat at the 'expense' of you or grab something it is custom that you pay for it anyway. Or someone might come sit next to you that you know and who is a fellow clan member, who has money for a piece of bred but not the soup, that's why he's going to sit next to you with his bread tipping into you soup and having a few bites of bread thanks to your soup. He then will move on to somebody else who is eating rice and eat a few spoonful portions of rice and so on. Then he will visit his extended uncle or a aunt to eat there some sweets and on the way he might meet a doctor or somebody well known or famous from his clan and say to him 'I need some money to chew some Khat today and that 'wealthy' person might give him a few dollars for him to buy some khat for the evening'. Well that is the Somali way of survival, the majority of men in Somlia live like that and because of extented family and clan courage, they're surviving because Somalis share everything and there's always someone that is willing to employ you or help you out and who is from your same clan that's why the clan is so important in Somalia, it can be vaguely be compared to the western well-fare system.

 

If you're sick or in trouble with some others you can always rely on the clan, sub-clan of yours until the lowest dominator of the clan, who will support you. But many Somali women actually work and send their children to School and they do not live on 'Shaxaad' like many of their husbands do.

 

They're the ones that are keeping Somalia alive today. Without them Somalia would be not what it is today. The diaspora also supports the local communities by actually sending millions of dollars back home in order to support their families etc which in return will benefit the clan subclan so forth. So this Somali women are independent in many ways and they talk to men and actually deal with their needs on the day to day activities of life and if they see a cousins of them or someone who they know, they will greet him and talk to that person and they will exchange a few words. That's Somali culture for you, some of the Somali women even shake hands with men, I never ever shook hands with an alien women or non-mahram women but many Somali men do and women as well and they don't have a problem with that.

 

Although Somali culture dictates that genders should be separated and indeed they're as Somalia is a very conservative Somali however many Somlis in their circle's of good family friends, fellow clans member, people they know etc will not hesitate to have a discussion with them. Furthermore the hijaab is the norm in Somalia and many Somali women wear the Jilbaan and niqaab however there are many who do not wear the conventional head scarf that is not to say that their heads are not covered but it is not the conventional way of wearing the hijaab nonetheless.

 

Not to mention the many Somali men that smoke cigars and cigarettes etc and the many ills within the Somali people. Somalis society needs to be purified and after that educated for a new society to emerge that will bring about an islamic state by themselves and I'm positive that such a thing will happen in the future inshallah that is if the necessary precautions and guidelines outlined here are followed.

[Fiqikhayre]

What I want is a lasting islamic state not one that will crumple from within due to internal pressure.

 

After that purification and teaching process, the people will bring about the necessary change by themselves but the religious folks have to strive for that by actually doing the necessary work in order to purify and educate people. Their propagation and dawah should go into every household, village, district, city, state until it reaches all of the country but they have to be united an agree on the Salafi methods and unite their ideology and eject the innovators from their ranks, only that will ensure the success of this grand preparation of building a functional and lasting islamic state.

 

After the masses bring about that Islamic state what is required it to safeguard the Islamic state by not making empty threats or opening your borders to international criminals and murderers but to further develop the society and acknowledge borders of other nations and not intervene with their internal affairs. There are many ethnic Somalis in Ethiopia and Kenya but we shall allow them into the country but at the same time not make political blunders by saying that you want to incorporate those regions into the Islamic state. We need a non approachable or aggressive stance.

 

But we should stay firm in our religion and not make any concessions on our belief system nor the affairs of the Islamic State.

 

From there on we should start a compaign where we educate our people and bring people of knowledge into the country that can help us with the technology and maybe with a weapons programme (not nuclear).

 

We have to be able to produce our own weapons, produce our own food and be self-reliant. We should avoid taking money or grants from the west or their banks and instead rely on our creator first and then on our own ability.

 

A army should be trained that will safeguard the nation and its borders from there we will produce our own weapons, medicines and food. We should strive for total independence from the West.

 

Our oil and natural resources will make sure that we can lure in experts in the field of medicine, farming and agriculture, irrigation systems to prevent famine (obviously if Allah wills such a famine nobody can do anything about it but we should first help ourselves than rely and put his trust into us. Without doing your share first and to day 'I rely and trust God' is not something that one should do.

 

After that we should gradually increase our strength by stemming in our authority. We can then held up our breast high (only methaphorically as pride is wrong in Islaam and humility is encouraged).

 

That is the right way to do it and the people will support you then because they have the knowledge, confidence and desire to see this through even if they're threatened or sanctioned or a embargo is put on them.

 

But a people that have not been purified and have not the knowledge will crumple at the first threat and they will be actually the ones that will destroy that Islamic state from with in.

 

Well thats my thoughts on this subject and I hope you have found them useful.

 

Sakhar.

[Caano Geel]

^ dude please use smaller pic's 70% of screen is taken up by you images, i can no longer see what i'm trying to read while i write - you've made me resort to blocking all images from farm1.static.flickr i.e. not good!