Anarcho-capitalism in Somalia?

[gavin]

I'm an American studying both AnCap and Somalia. From what I've read, Somalia is currently the closest nation in the world to an anarcho-capitalist ideal. Here are some questions I would love to hear answers to:

 

*Why are Somalis so independent-minded?

 

*Are any other peoples of Africa/Arabia just as libertarian, or is it just a Somali trait?

 

*Would most Somalis be happy having no government?

(Meaning, services like security, healthcare, roads, etc. provided by the free-market.)

 

 

Thank you for your time, and please do not judge me too harshly because I am an American! Peace.

[Caano Geel]

Gavin, first, welcome to the forum - we (well i) head your american warning and probably wont respect it.

 

Don't take this personally but we cant really stand each other much anyway, so we'll attempt to take a bite out of anyone in the vicinity too. In return don't feel shy about voicing your opinions and telling others that they are being door-kknobs when they say something ishtupid and you'll be at home.

 

wrt. somalis - please don't buy into this post modern interpretation of savagery dressed up in big words to satisfy the curiosity of intellectuals. Somalia as it stands is a hell hole for the vast majority of its inhabitants - if that was not the case then somali lives would mean more than numbers on wall charts and we wouldn't be washing up dead or barely alive on the beaches of the rest of the world.

 

The independence traits you mention were typically associated with nomadic pastoralist cultures - but they say nothing more than a crude generalisation. If you are interested in what factors of Somali culture lead to their mind set read the english translations of Somali poetry - a lot of the guys here would be in a better position to advice you. If you'd like a western opinion on somali people Gerald Hanley's 'Warriors and Strangers' is a remarkably good book.

[gavin]

Well, I appreciate your response Caano Geel , although maybe I should have been more clear in my main question:

 

*How many Somalis want a Western-style government, also how many want no government (anarcho-capitalism)?

[Tahliil]

From Gerald Hanley's Strangers and Warriors

 

Frightened of nothing on earth and willing to try anything anywhere, the Somali is never over-impressed by what he sees in the west, and they are great travelers. If he sees New York, or London, or Paris, the sight of these places with their superb machinery in no way diminishes his love of his desert home. He will go back there one day and wander with camels again. Once, in as blasted, dried out and stark a piece of scenery as I ever sighted in Somalia, I met a tall lean Somali who spoke to me in American. He had lived in America, after sailing the world as a stoker, and had been cocktail barman in Baltimore for some years. He spoke of it casually, even contemptuously, as just something that had happened to happen to him. This was Jibreel, Willie Ritchie's interpreter. He was glad to be back here, with nothing except a piece of cloth around his loins, a knife and some camels. Like the two stowaways at Bosaso, who had survived the sharks on the plank so thoughtfully thrown after them into sea, this Somali (Jibreel) who had shaken cocktails in Baltimore, who had seen all the things so many millions sigh for in the West, saw it all as mere happenings, mere pictures walked through and seen with the eyes. As avaricious as can be, about camels and money, the Somali is never blinded, like the Bantu, by the big show, the white man's magic and power. And they are obsessed with their rights, and about justice.

[ansaar17]

Right now somalia is under occupation by the west.

 

I hope after the TFG is eliminated we can have an islamic govt.

[Caano Geel]

Gavin:

Its difficult to define what a 'western style' government is, 'western style' governments vary as much as the cultures they are from. Most of us want a fair system that empowers its people and takes responsibility for its actions - but in reality, (i think) that the correlation between the extent to which a government provides that and its political philosophy is murky, and depends much more on the social norms and the power balance within the culture. So most of us support and want ideals like democracy, but we want it our way, to support our ideals and values, not wholesale imported.

 

wrt to anarcho-capitalism isnt it another fancy word for market optimisation? and doesnt that implicitly contradict the basic function of society - i.e. looking out for the parts that make up the sum?

 

ansaar17:

So who will rule this islamic nation of yours?

[gavin]

Originally posted by Caano Geel:

Gavin:

Its difficult to define what a 'western style' government is, 'western style' governments vary as much as the cultures they are from. Most of us want a fair system that empowers its people and takes responsibility for its actions - but in reality, (i think) that the correlation between the extent to which a government provides that and its political philosophy is murky, and depends much more on the social norms and the power balance within the culture. So most of us support and want ideals like democracy, but we want it our way, to support our ideals and values, not wholesale imported.

 

wrt to anarcho-capitalism isnt it another fancy word for market optimisation? and doesnt that implicitly contradict the basic function of society - i.e. looking out for the parts that make up the sum?

Thank you for replying, and allow me to answer your question

 

If one were to have a line of political freedom, it would look like this (in my humble estimation):

 

Most Free - Anarcho-Capitalism (maybe Syndicalism)

" - Traditional Somalia Kritarchy

" - Direct Democracy (no modern nation)

" - Republic w/ Strong Direct Democracy (Swiss)

" - Republic (USA)

" - Socialist nation (UK, Sweden)

" - Iranian Democracy (sharia-law)

" - Communism

Least Free- Monarchy, Fascism, Warlordism

 

 

This is a *very* unique time in human history. No nation , I believe, has ever been ruled by anarcho-capitalism (with their traditional law, Xeer I believe Somalis call it).

 

Many libertarians around the world are watching Somalia very closely to see if they choose yet another Western-style democracy, or a system which embraces radical liberty. You may not realize it, but Somalia has the power to be a shining beacon of liberty which could be an example for humanity, similar to what happened in the late 1700s in the United States.

[Fabregas]

The people who do not want a government in Somalia are warlords, who have raped our contry for the last 16 years. We currently have a functioning Government, but it is been installed by American warlord George W Bush and Meles Zenawi. Therefore, all Somalis want a government, but no one that is guarded or installed by Foreign powers. There are also functioning adminstrations in the Northwest and eastern part of the country. In other words Somalia is not ruled by "anarcho capitalism, nor do we desire it to be. We want functioning Governments and insititutions like the rest of the world.....

[gavin]

Originally posted by Geel_Jire12:

The people who do not want a government in Somalia are warlords

It seems to me that the warlords are a government, only on a small scale. They are mini-dictators. This is not political-anarchy, in fact dictators are the exact opposite.

 

In a true political anarchy, Somalis would *not* be forced to pay fees to any security service/warlord, not matter where they owned property.

[Fabregas]

Something tells me, you desire a "true political anarchy" for Somalia no?

[ansaar17]

if you want a wild place where there is no rule and its "survival of the fittest" then it isn't somalia.

 

we are muslims who follow what god has ordained.

 

withouth law an order a society cannot funtion.

[gavin]

Originally posted by Geel_Jire12:

Something tells me, you desire a "true political anarchy" for Somalia no?

Yes, and I'm sorry if I'm too biased for my own survey.

 

if you want a wild place where there is no rule and its "survival of the fittest" then it isn't somalia.

Ok, please allow me one comment... you do realize that there is just as much law and order (maybe more) in a political-anarchy, as any democracy? The word "anarchy" does not mean social chaos, only lack of federal government.

[ansaar17]

Originally posted by Caano Geel:

Gavin:

Its difficult to define what a 'western style' government is, 'western style' governments vary as much as the cultures they are from. Most of us want a fair system that empowers its people and takes responsibility for its actions - but in reality, (i think) that the correlation between the extent to which a government provides that and its political philosophy is murky, and depends much more on the social norms and the power balance within the culture. So most of us support and want ideals like democracy, but we want it our way, to support our ideals and values, not wholesale imported.

 

wrt to anarcho-capitalism isnt it another fancy word for market optimisation? and doesnt that implicitly contradict the basic function of society - i.e. looking out for the parts that make up the sum?

 

ansaar17:

So who will rule this islamic nation of yours?

I think the reason why we nothing else but an islamic govt won't work is, somalians are made up of tribes who will not allow someone else from another tribe to rule over them.

 

Yet, islam is the only thing able to come over that.

[Fabregas]

We know what anarchy is and it has left us scattered around the world like the Israelites. Of course there are some benefits such as: low telecommunication, some political freedom and free market orientated business. However, if you do not have an effective strong government, which takes care of: health, education, define etc.... Then you will become prey upon yourself and other neighbouring states who will take advantage of this situation, hence, why Somalia is under occupation today by Ethiopian forces. If you want to live in political anarchy, remember that somebody else will come and rule you!

[gavin]

From the replies thusfar, it seems a Iraqi-style (only Sunni) Federal Republic, or a Iranian-style (only Sunni) Islamic Republic would be the choice... since I biased this thread with my own thoughts, please forgive me if I make a separate 'poll' thread.