The farce of defending a war criminal Cali samater

[J.Lee]

This is the man who gave the order or the very least turned a blind eye to the gathering of hundredth and hundredth young Somalilanders in hamar to be put to death in JAZEERA! What possible reasons can you find in your hearts and minds to support him.

You amaze me, so you're saying he might of ordered it but because of lack of evidence (on your part), you're blaming him for the killings because he turned a blind eye? Has it occured to you, that maybe there was nothing he could do to stop it, there higher powers that be that might of ordered the killings?

 

Since I have the habit of asking you questions,

 

Why were the young "somalilanders" killed? Was it because of treason? I simply want to know the reason why you think they were killed? What motivated these killings? You can't simply just say it was done because they were "somalilanders"?

 

Oh, and please when and if you choose to answer refrain from giving me the Hergeisa version, I would like some unbaised facts please.

 

Riyaale might not of given the order but as part of the Red Baret, best belief he gathered the information that caused it.

Funny how you missed that.

 

As for closure, I doubt putting some one responsible for the killings of my loved ones in jail would bring me closure for justice can't bring them back from the dead, I would just leave him/them to Allah's will.

 

I also find it funny how you chose closure which in my mind I translate to conclusion or End, when you state Samatar is merely a Geunia pig, an experiment which implies if it's a success then more are soon to follow, that doesn't sound like closure or bringing something to conclusion to me Sweetheart.

[wind.talker]

Originally posted by India:

Wind Talker: So in your opinion victims: leeches. Charming walahi.

Victims, victims. If this was a crying game based on who shed the most tears, then Reer Waqooyi would BY FAR surpass any other Somali group because they sure know how to shed tears. We've all suffered during Somalia's civil war. We're ALL victims - EXCEPT for the perpetrators of crimes during the past few decades in Somali history.

 

This is the problem: you believe the 1988-90 bombings and so forth to be an attempted genocide. Which is fine. But if that qualifies as attempted genocide, then so do many other events in recent Somali history. But the rest of Somalis aren't still crying. They've picked up whatever meager resources they have left and continued living. Which is an Islamic way of handling hardship. Tii Alle baa Cali Samatar iyo wixii la shaqaynjiray u taal. So if you can't get justice for all criminals, then why continue picking-and-choosing a few?

 

Looks like you're the one running away from answering that fundamental question. Name one case where a person NOT from Barre's clan-family was charged. ONE!

[India]

Msthing

 

I suggest you familirise your self with the case before you blindly leap to his defence....www.cja.org. Put it this way, it would not go this far if the evidence against him was not so vast.

 

And as for the case of the massacre in Jaseera....it is disgusting that you've even asked me that question!!

 

And no I am not ignoring your posts it is just some points you have made are so trivial that they dont warrant an answer.

 

Main point for discussion is now the topic in hand. You my darling dont.

 

 

Wind talker: in my opinion if Ali Samater is the same tribe as Said Barre', we can therfore argue that 1+1=3 indeed. Same advise as missy goes; Come with fact not blind leap of defence.

[Qudhac]

wind

 

this is not crying game my son.. its justice game.. serving it cold.

 

its about making sure that every man sleeps in the bed he makes.

 

now i doubt people like these really need your cyber baroor as they probally fully aware of their actions and am sorry to tell you no amount of your sabre rattling is going to wash their hands of the blood for them, i suggest you chill out and let justice take its course

[J.Lee]

Same advise as missy goes; Come with fact not blind leap of defence.

Sweetheart, isn't that the case of the Pot calling the Kettle black? really your hypocrisy is boundless. Furthermore Missy, The Jazeera Masacre based on Factual Knowledge instead of your Passion driven, biased nonfacts happened because the men were guilty of treason.

 

Now lets understand that If anybody chooses to rise up against the State, if you're familiar with the structure of politics you would know especially in a Dictatorial controlled country such as Somalia was, where at that time ONE PERSON had implicit and unprecendented power, then they are guilty of treason, Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign and therefore Siad Barrre (may allah have mercy on him) did/ordered to be done, what he felt was just.

 

Oh dear misguided soul, do understand that I'm not condoning nor justifying what the Government did but trying to make you understand why it was done and the reason for it. When and if you understand (highly unlikely)it then you would know it is actually a common occurance in any country and wasn't an attempt to wipe out "Somalilanders". If it makes you feel better, Honey "Puntlanders" and even those of Barre's clan family (what a shocker huh :eek: ) were guilty of treason and were killed because the President felt it was just.

 

Wind talker: in my opinion if Ali Samater is the same tribe as Said Barre', we can therfore argue that 1+1=3 indeed

You've also proven his point and actually made it a fact while in the process making yourself a hypocrite. You "guys" are only going after ex-officials from Barre's clan instead of everybody who was/is guilty. In my opinion kulahaa and what was this opinion formed on I ponder, let me guess the socialization agents such as your clansmen right dear?

 

For your information, Ali Samatar is actually, now now now sweetheart don't panic, not of Barre's clan.

 

This farce need for justice has been proven by your posts that it's a misguided attempt to extract revenge by trying those who you deem "criminals" basically anybody you think is or are trully of Barre's Clan.

 

Therefore, Heedheh nagadaa shoobaraha iyo beenta. Be honest and stop hiding behind the facade of the justice blanket.

[wind.talker]

Originally posted by Qudhac:

wind

 

now i doubt people like these really need your cyber baroor as they probally fully aware of their actions and am sorry to tell you no amount of your sabre rattling is going to wash their hands of the blood for them, i suggest you chill out and let justice take its course

You really must have a hard time reading my posts, sxb. All I'm saying can be summed up in a single sentence: BRING ALL OFFICIALS FROM THE FORMER REGIME TO JUSTICE. Not just Col Tukeh and Ali Samatar. For me, sounds like TWO DOWN, THOUSANDS TO GO. For you, my friend, its two from the hated clan-family down, the rest to follow (hopefully). Keep praying dude.

 

Originally posted by India:

Wind talker: in my opinion if Ali Samater is the same tribe as Said Barre', we can therfore argue that 1+1=3 indeed. Same advise as missy goes; Come with fact not blind leap of defence.

Common Somali rumors have Ali Samatar labelled as a man who hails from one of Somalia's small and neglected tribes. But Ali Samatar was raised by a man from such a tribe. His biological father hails from Las Anod region (therefore, him and Col Tukeh are the same clan lineage - which in turns means from Siyad Barre's clan-family). You're still managing to miss the point, much as your fellow complainer/mourner/victim, QUDHAC. Good luck

[Qudhac]

You really must have a hard time reading my posts, sxb. All I'm saying can be summed up in a single sentence: BRING ALL OFFICIALS FROM THE FORMER REGIME TO JUSTICE. Not just Col Tukeh and Ali Samatar. For me, sounds like TWO DOWN, THOUSANDS TO GO. For you, my friend, its two from the hated clan-family down, the rest to follow (hopefully).

 

 

you see thats were the you and the free thinking people of this word differ, the fact that someone is making a start is good thing so two down thousand to go is a good thing , since its making a start.

 

you can't run unless you walk, but the walking starts now try to think like that. no free soceity in the world recognises your form of defence "others did too" thats from dark ages my friend.

 

every man is responsible for his actions simple as that, you did the crime = you pay the price...

 

 

now no one is saying you cant defend these people but the only form of defense opened to you is for you to say,

 

THESE PEOPLE DIDNT DO THESE CRIMES :eek:

 

otherwise please, hays daalin no-one listens to excuses.

[Gabbal]

Wind talker: in my opinion if Ali Samater is the same tribe as Said Barre', we can therfore argue that 1+1=3 indeed. Same advise as missy goes; Come with fact not blind leap of defence.

Someone spilled the beans..! :eek:

 

Ahh you have just proven to us how this all goes back to qabiil..I wonder who could possibly have indocturnated you in your "facts" concerning the gultiness of the former prime minister :confused:

 

Simply said the old man does not deserve this just cuz you believe his gultiness is due to his (in your assumption) clan relations. :confused:

 

I would have to ask you ma'am..to come with facts next time a not blind leap to mis-information! :cool:

[NGONGE]

What a farce! :rolleyes:

 

Why are people trying to defend the indefensible here? :confused:

 

As I understand it, the man was a senior member of the old dictatorial regime of Siyad Barre. Everyone here seems to agree on that fact. He resides in the West (again, all are in agreement here).

 

I would also wager that most (some reluctantly) will not dispute the atrocities that took place in Hargeisa under the rule of the former regime.

 

Strangely enough, all are also in agreement that most of those who were part of the old government should be sued for similar crimes (the courts will find their guilt or innocence)! The problem here is that ALL are not living in the West and the long arm of the law can’t reach them. Where they reside, they are the LAW!

 

If people want to sue president Riyaale, they should try to mount a case in the Somaliland courts (it would be a great test of the trumpeted democracy in that part of the world. Heh). If people want to sue others, they can petition the new government of Somalia (Heh).

 

Of course, the flimsiness of the paper-thin argument of “selective justice†is all apparent because it’s based on the assumption that people are suing out of a sense of justice and not bitterness! Maybe it’s nice to forgive, but it’s NEVER an obligation. If some individuals have a case against that person, they are free and within their rights to pursue that individual without having to worry about where “others†are and the fact that they’re not being sued.

 

If the former president was living today and residing in America, many people will be trying to sue him too (though I doubt they‘ll win). In fact, I suspect that if any of these “others†were here in the West they would have been looking behind their backs by now and wondering when will the tit-for-tat campaigns would start! Alas, not many of them are in the West and those that are, will get caught sooner or later.

 

The real question that many have expertly tried to avoid is one of JUSTICE. Do you actually believe in it? If there are bases for mounting a court case and the man is found guilty then, really, that’s all that’s needs to be said on this topic. If however, he’s found innocent, he can counter sue and the whole case becomes nothing but a storm in a teacup. To oppose the case on the basis of “others†guilt is extremely blinkered and irrational. :eek:

[Tahliil]

Funny how these things have a ring of falseness to them...I don't think a process like this is fair to anyone. Particularly when I want the other tribes to pay their share of crimes and abuses, calling them criminals and thugs while am trying to protect my JIFO, calling my Criminal Uncle a saint...Hypocrisy...and I can’t take that BS from anyone… If you are decent enough to be fair about this, let's do this together, and I propose: bring your criminal uncle and I will definitely bring mine...put him b4 the law, allow him to b judged, and condemned...and then and only then we can move forward together…

 

If not, hear this, I’m telling that my Criminal Uncle is a saint too...and no one can call him, or condemn him about what ur uncle had started in the first place

[NGONGE]

^^^ Was the case brought to court by the Somaliland Ambassador to the UN, saaxib?

He was wrong to do that. They should have had a referendum in Somaliland and gave the people the chance to decide whom to sue. I for one would have voted for suing Kofi Anaan for ignoring our case for recognition. We all know he hates Somalilanders because when he was a young university student in Moscow, he tried to chat up a Somali girl and she turned him down. He always had a grudge against us ever since. But someone ought to tell him that the wadaad girl that turned him down was not even from Somaliland.

 

Anyway, let you and me agree that vindictive Kofi is not a saint.

[Gabbal]

They should have had a referendum in Somaliland and gave the people the chance to decide whom to sue.

An official refrendum hasn't been held, but it doesn't matter in this case anyways. The people of "Somaliland" have already decided that the people they wish to go after have to pass certain requirements, i.e. qabiil.

 

Too bad there is no one buying this double standard!

 

Where are men such as "President" Dahir Riyaale Kaahin, Ismacil Cali Abokar, Cumar Arteh Qalib, Jamac Mohamed Qalib, and alot of other "northernors" who were part of Siad Barre's administration not under "target"?

 

Ismacil Cali Abokar was the V. President of the Siad Barre regime during the time the government was rooting out the SNM! I don't see reer Waqooyi tripping over their feet trying to get a go at him!

 

Oh, but wait a second :rolleyes: . To go after them means to alienate some members of the nortern community which might bring about unwanted dis -unity huh? :eek:

 

 

Lets talk General Cali Samantar for a second. I personally, not giving a fig about his qabiil orientation, admire the man. I respect him because he has a long history of pan-Somalism, starting from his anti-Italian days to independence day when he was the man hanging up the Somali flag to the ****** war where his regiment was one of the most responsible for the crushing defeats given to Addis Ababa before the communist bloc stepped in.

 

He was the Prime Minister during an unfortunate point in history, so does that automatically mean he is responsible? I didn't see anyone clamoring after Bush or Dick Cheney after the Abu Ghraib prison abuse! :eek: With all due respect to the late president Siad Barre, ilaahay ha u naxariisto, the country was run by a dictatorship! If you don't already know, ministers, including chiefly the prime minister, are yes-man who give the real strong man whatever they want to hear. :eek:

 

I ask honestly: a spirit of "reconcialiation" has been implemented in the north and that is chiefly why former NSS spy Riyaale is currently the undisputed monarch of the Hargeisa-Burco-Berbera triangle, doing away with any traditional leaders (Boqor Buurmadow, Boqor Raabi) that stand against him right?

 

Why is that spirit of "reconcialiation" not extended to rest of the Somali people if there is no double standard here and if you are really concerned about finding justice to the memory of those that suffered :confused:

[Garyaqaan2]

baq baq baq bal balaa balaa.

 

 

too much calaacal qudhac and his friends.

 

sxb like sangub said (YAC) LOL the man did something we all know but he wasn't alone.

 

we all have been saying lets get all of them. STOP PICKING AND CHOOSING.

 

 

WE HAVE NO ENERGY TO LOOSE. LETS SEE WHAT THIS PEOPLE COULD GET OUT ABOUT THIS CASE. THE MAN HAVE ALOT PEOPLE SUPORTING HIM #1 SANGUB

[NGONGE]

HornAfrique, I see you decided to quote me there, saaxib.

 

I could only assume that what followed my quote was also directed at me!

 

I shall ignore your mention of “others†and the rest of your ill-thought arguments for a minute, and instead, I’ll deal with your praise of this man and your (yet again) uninformed understanding of dictatorships!

 

Yes, dictatorships are ruled by a strong man (not run mind you), and yes he usually selects ministers that will not question his orders. However, the testimonies of various dictators, lackeys and army officers throughout the ages tell us that most dictators are not aware of the day-to-day running of their countries. These helpless “yes†men, in most cases, were dictators themselves. In fact, if you go around and ask the citizens of countries that were under the rule of dictatorships, you’ll find that most will give you names of Prime Ministers, Defence Ministers, Security directors or Army generals as being the men that the citizens most feared! When you delve deeper into things and attempt to apportion blame, you’ll find that contrary to what you believe, a dictatorship is indeed not just a one-man-show, saaxib.

 

This tribe and clan business is a very convenient coat hanger and a despicable one at that. You either believe that the man, in his capacity as a senior member of the former regime, should be answering for and questioned on his part in these crimes or you don’t. If you do, you do so because you believe in Justice and want to see it taking place (regardless of the tribal side-show and motives). If you don’t, then it’s not about “fairnessâ€, “Justice†or “equal punishmentâ€. It’s all about expediency, pragmatism and “real politicâ€! Your argument then should really be about wanting to preserve sanity, save the nation from unhelpful acts of retribution or even the benefits of reconciliation. All these, whilst not discounting the original miscarriage of justice, at least have a logical goal (i.e. the halting of further injustices and the containment of hatred). You, sadly, have chosen not to follow either of the two options. Instead, you chose to doggedly follow your tribal instincts!

 

There are many precedents in political history and international law of similar cases, saaxib. The Bosnian conflict is still being debated in The Hague. They caught the big guy, the former Serbian president but are still trying to catch some of the generals (almost ten years after the conflict ended). If we go by your logic, Slobodan Milosevic should not be tried because the others (Karadzic being one) have not been caught yet!

 

World War Two and the Nuremberg trials also followed the same pattern and many former Nazi commanders, Ministers and even low-level soldiers were tried. Some received death sentences, some prison sentences and others were acquitted! That was not the end of the trials though and not every Nazi was dealt with in Nuremberg (many fled Germany and were pursued for years). Some were caught and tried in the 1960s (almost 20 years after the war). Again, the condemn one, condemn them all principle of yours was not applied here.

 

 

Even General Pinochet who was a dictator, was alleged to have killed thousands of his countrymen, was accused of “disappearing†many others but was never tried in his own country and never got in trouble after losing the presidency, had to deal with disgruntled Chileans in Spain who filed for his extradition from the UK and wanted him tried for all these alleged crimes! He of course got away with it (for reasons of pragmatism and practicality). Not once in all these cases have the supporters of the accused use justice as an argument, why then are we trying to excuse the inexcusable by spitting out words such as fairness and justice to support our opposition to the trial of this man?

 

I suggest that people (those with or against) re-examine their understanding of such concepts as fairness, justice and righteousness before ascending their pulpits and moralising on hypocrisy and double standards.

[India]

Darling Missy

 

How you can justify calling me a hypocrite for condemning the actions of the former regime whilst and I quote you say "just cause" by the former government is beyond me. I would call you ignorant but then I know you know very well that massacre in Jazeera was actually targeting Somaliland because of their clan lineage and don’t go saying otherwise unless you want to keep on being ridiculous.

Now perhaps you should re read my previous post as the whole point was to demonstrate Ali Samater was indeed not of Bare's tribe as claimed by wind talker. But then again understanding a simple formula like 1+1=3 is waaaay too much for you to grasp.

 

I reiterate my previous advice; know the topic at hand before spilling out any ol crap.