A T, I'm curious to know how one thinks as you put, si balaadhan oo Somali ah?

[Shilling]

When you perceive certain section of our society with such baseless accusations:

 

Originally posted by Abtigiis & Tolka:

But talking of Puntland, how can a region that has done so much harm to the psyche of somalinimo with - endless mucaarad-nimo, with "if-not-us-let-it go up-in-flames" mentality, with incurable proclivity for treason, with so much publicised clan-cleansing agenda (a dream only constrained by lack of might to achieve it), spearhead the reconstruction of the very nationhood it has worked so tirelessly to dismantle?? No one is going to take its facile rethoric about Somalinimo seriously!

 

Any suggestion that a future Somalia will be founded with a strong role of Puntland is fallacious. They are not trusted in the North, you don't have to go far beyond south Galkacyo to see what is the opinion of others about this entity, and the people of Banaadir would eat their flesh if they could put their hands on them.

Perhaps you ought to rethink this as well:

 

Originally posted by Abtigiis & Tolka:

Reerkayagaa isasaxay, reer hebel ha isa saxo is petty.

Till that is a lasting trust can be built. In the meantime, I stand correct in saying all of us are better off entrusting our elders and educated folk with our future then a two-face Somali.

[Abtigiis]

You convieniently omiited this from your quotations.

 

There is also no generalisations on my part. This is the politics section and we are talking about the political humans of the societies we are discussing. Whatever generalisation made is limited to those who are actively or passively participating with the politics of Somalia from each community. Perhaps, that should have been put as a nuance a bit earlier.

[Shilling]

^When one in his perception excludes all but one section of our society in holding them accountable for what is a collective mishap, I think it is only fair that he be man enough to at least admit to the obvious, the generalization on his part. So Abtigiis, unless you want to be taken for the two-face you are, if I were you I'd at least try to be consistent about it.

 

As you wonderfully put, "small minds think small," and u are no exception. The psyche of somalinimo is something that we all collectively harmed, none are innocent, and we are all guilty when it comes to putting our individual interest ahead of our national interest.

 

Mucaarad-nimo started in 1969 when our nation's constitution was suspended; the "if-not-us-let-it-go-up-in-flames" mentality in it's evil purity took it's toll on Somalia under the leadership of Jess and Aydiid, perhaps these are times void in Abtigiis brain; indeed, only in his brain is Somaliland the entity fighting for its just share of donor funds and programs with the TFG while Puntland is the isolated one.

 

Someone ought to suggest to him Somalia has better future with leaders that insist, "In dealing with extremists and terrorist threats in Somalia. The international community must support stable regions, for example Puntland, and offer long-awaited development incentives in order to attract the attention of other Somali regions that see the benefits as counter-weight to joining extremists," - than fallacious leaders sulking somewhere when they should be taking part in Somalia's future.

[Abtigiis]

Originally posted by Shilling:

The psyche of somalinimo is something that we all collectively harmed, none are innocent, and we are all guilty when it comes to putting our individual interest ahead of our national interest.

Yes, but some more than the others. Some, who who brought the historical enemy to the Somali capital.

 

Mucaarad-nimo started in 1969 when our nation's constitution was suspended

It started before the constitution was suspended. Who killed who first? Admit that Puntlanders stated mucaaradnimo, this hiding under the cover of generality will not wash.

 

The "if-not-us-let-it-go-up-in-flames" mentality in it's evil purity took it's toll on Somalia under the leadership of Jess and Aydiid, perhaps these are times void in Abtigiis brain;

No, it lives vividly in my mind but the subject of discussion is Puntland's seemingly perpetual destructive role in Somali politics.

 

Yesterday, Xinnfanin looked aghast when I concurred with his sarcastic description of Puntlanders as "political Savavengers". His words, by the way; not mine. Considering Omer Abdirashid is the current Prime Minster against a background of Puntlanders fanatical rallying behind Yey and his marauding Tigre army few years back, is it wide off the mark if one is forced to think of hyenas desecrating a wild beast they never killed in the first place?

 

Is it insulting to ask why Puntlanders deserve to get the Premiership when they have not contributed to the manner in which the current government was brought up? Should treason be rewarded?

Indeed, only in his brain is Somaliland the entity fighting for its just share of donor funds and programs with the TFG while Puntland is the isolated one.

The People's Republic of Somaliland is indeed a beacon of tranquility and hope with credible democratic credentials. It has made remarkable political and social transformation and the fundamental preconditions for speedy economic development are in place: good governance, stability and the will to grow and prosper. What little hiccups they have in electoral processes are unlikely to result in any any drastic consequences. The maturity with which they handled past challenges attest to the strength of the governance and conflict resolution systems from communal to formal administrative levels.

 

By contrast, Puntland has never been blessed with visionary leadership. From a murderous tyrant, to a rapacious colonel who made the place the hub of underground world dealers, to a Diaspora money launderer who is so nepotistic he can pay for advices he would have gotten for free at home. Political power revolves around a small clique of the dominant clan, and there are no elections at all.

 

I didn't mince my words here but did I misrepresent any facts, dear Shilling? To give you your due, you can rightly accuse me of being selective as I picked on only one of the co-pilots of what is largely agreed to be the cancer of Somalia's ailments: "The MUDUG Predation". But ditto all I said about Puntland to Gal-Mudug and we cover all the culprits.

[Shilling]

Originally posted by Abtigiis & Tolka:

quote:Originally posted by Shilling:

The psyche of somalinimo is something that we all collectively harmed, none are innocent, and we are all guilty when it comes to putting our individual interest ahead of our national interest.

Yes, but some more than the others. Some, who who brought the historical enemy to the Somali capital.

Again our collective mishap is one no individual group is guilty of; there is no innocent group when it comes to using Ethiopia as a bogyman to get to the top price - yes, some more politically endowed than others, and some just downright dirty for being on record to have proclaimed that they loved Ethiopia more than their own Somali brethren inside and outside of the republic: "a boy born in Hargeisa has more commonality with one born in Addis Ababa than one in Mogadishu."

 

Grow some balls and stay consistent Abtigiis.

 

Originally posted by Abtigiis & Tolka:

quote:Originally posted by Shilling:

Mucaarad-nimo started in 1969 when our nation's constitution was suspended

It started before the constitution was suspended. Who killed who first? Admit that Puntlanders stated mucaaradnimo, this hiding under the cover of generality will not wash.

Well in the words of a secessionists by the name of Dr. Mohamed Rashid Sheikh Hassan, "the preparations of the coup were in existence since 1967 but knowledge of it was limited to only a few officers, and Siad Barre was the head." So you see dear lad, if your not going to take my word for it at least take it from your guru Oodweyne's own uncle.

 

Originally posted by Abtigiis & Tolka:

quote:Originally posted by Shilling:

The "if-not-us-let-it-go-up-in-flames" mentality in it's evil purity took it's toll on Somalia under the leadership of Jess and Aydiid, perhaps these are times void in Abtigiis brain;

No, it lives vividly in my mind but the subject of discussion is Puntland's seemingly perpetual destructive role in Somali politics.

Do you really vividly recall such evil? Then you don't mind sharing the story of Abdisaid Ali with the rest of SOL:

 

" ...Let me remind you where I was one terrible night in Kismayu. In December 1992, I was at the home of Dr. Mohamed Dahir Nur. We were there with his two daughters, one was eleven, the other sixteen. Therewas gunfire all over the city. We could hear gunfire everywhere. We did not know that Jess' soldiers would come looking for us but they did ( us any other ********* in the city). Mohamed's home had an outhouse-type lavatory. I was in the lavatory when Jess' soldiers burst into the compound, firing their weapons. The soldiers captured Dr. Mohamed and tied him up. They insulted him and beat him. A short time after they arrived, Jess himself arrived. I recognized him. I saw him with my own eyes. Dr. Mohamed's daughters were crying and screaming. Jess went over to where Dr. Mohamed was lying on the ground and told the soldiers to kill him. They let out a burst of gunfire. Then the soldiers grabbed Dr. Mohamed's older daughter and gang-raped her. The whole time I was frozen in terror and shock from what I was witnessing.

 

These are some of the people they massacred that night:

 

1. Abdikarim Ahmed (Lawyer)

2. Chief Dhuh Ahmed Salah

3. Mr. Abdi Ahmed Salah (businessman, brother to number 2)

4. Dr. Sugulle Ahmed Mohamed (Economist)

5. Mr. Mohamed Olad Isse Karshe (businessman)

6. Mr. Yusuf Dahir Ali

7. Mr. Farah Ahmed Saleh

8. Chief Abdi Yusuf Dhuh alias Maneno

9. Mr. Ahmed Abdullahi Mire

10. Mr. Ali Omar Osman

11. Mohamed Abdirizak Hersi

12. Dr. Mohamed Dahir Nur alias Lugey..(I was there)

13. Mr. Jama Ader

14. Ugas Hashi Farah Ambar alias Daqarre

15. Mr. Ali Warabe Garon

16. Mr. Mohamud Ahmed Asayr alias Ga'ir

17. Mr. Hassan Dahir Ali Gaban

18. Mr. Mohamud Farah Osman (Tetano)

19. Dr. Mohamud Musse Sugulle

20. Mr. Ainab Mohamud Said

21. Farah Aden Hassan

22. Abdillahi Isse

23. Mr. Abdullahi Tunniyow

24. Mr. Yusuf Hundhur

25. Dr. Mohamud Mohamed Abdi

26. Ms. Faduma Musse Sugulle

27. Ms. Ruqiya Musse sugulle (Sister of number 26)

28. Mr. Abdullahi Isse Samatar

29. Son of number 28

30. Mr. Abdullahi Said Samatar

31. Son of number 30

32. Chief Abdillahi Haji Yusuf alias Gurie (nephew to former Obbia King)

33. Mr. Abdi Hassan Farah

34. Hassan Farah Samantar

35. Mr. Abdi Garas Haji

36. Mr. M. Aden

37. Dr. Abdullahi Sheekh Ali alias Gobbe ( Vice president Somali

Institute for Development and Administration)

38. Haji Mire Yusuf Musse (businessman)

39. Chief Haji Ibrahim Garabyare

40. Prof. Abdullahi Abdi Warfa

41. Dr. Abdulkadir Abshir Mohamed

42. Mr. Mohamed Musse Jama alias Madome

43. Mr. Mohamed Ismail Ali

44. Mr. Said Mohamud Abdalle alias Nin-ku-toos

45. Mr. Moallin Awil Mohamed Yusuf

46. Haji Isse Khaire Ali

47. Sheekh Said Mohamed Mohamud Siqe

48. Abdullahi Ali Abdulle

49. Abdi Mohamud Mohamed alias Gobbe

50. Mr. Mohamed Aden Warsame

51. Ms. Asha Bihi

52. Daughter of number 51 ( four years old)

53. Mr. Mohamed Farah

54. Mr. Jama Farah Barre alias Shan-Lire

55. Mr. Mohamed Hersi Rug

56. Mr. Sugulle Hashi Nur

57. Mr. Abdirashid Abdullahi Said

58. Mr. Yusuf Ali Salah

59. Mr. Mohamed Aw Farah

60. Ms. Anab Olad Jama

61. Mr. Ali Ispettore

62. Mr. Mohamed Dahir Agei

63. Mr. Ali Farah Dabagoye

64. Mr. Abdi Gelle Koreie (90 years old----yes Ninety years old!!!)

65. Ms. Ahada Dirie Mohamed

66. Mr. Ahmed Aisane

67. Mr. Ahmed Mohamed Warsame alias Olyo

68. Mr. Yusuf Gure

69. Mr. Yusuf Omar Hassan

70. Mr. Ainab Shire

71. Mr. Mohamud Olow Osman

72. Mr. Mohamed Hassan Mohamud

73. Mr. Mohamed Osman Omar

74. Mr. Jama Omar Alin

75. Mr. Mohamed Aden Farah

76. Mr. Ali Sheekh Farah

77. Mumin Ali Hersi (4 years old !)

78. Farah Hashi Omar ( 2 years old!)

79. Mother of number 78

81. Mr. Mohamed Farah Dhurwa

82. Ms. Basra Ali Hashi

83. Mr. Bashir Ali Gure

84. Mr. Mohamed Addow

85. Mr. Shu'aib Ali Isse-Yare

86. Dr. Mohamud Mohamed Abdirahman

87. Mr. Ali-Gurei Aden

88. Ms. Amina Hussein Farah

89. Chief Haji Ali Mumin Geddi

90. Mr. Abdullahi Haji Ali Abokar

91. Sultan Abdirahman Musse Shire-Farei (brother of the chief of Rer

Mohamud-*********)

92. Sheekh Mohamud Mohamed

93. Mr. Bashir Ahmed

94. Mr. Mohamed Dahir (school-teacher)

95. Major Abdulkadir Aftoje

96. Son of Bashir Qoslaye

97. member of the family of number 96

98. Mr. Mohamed Said Garweine

99. Mr. Isse Afqalloc

100. Raage

101. Col. Mohamed Mohamud Yusuf alias Labo-Tinle

102. Dr. Mohamed Said Mohamed alias Dhalawa-former director Kismayu Port

103. Mr. Mohamud Salah Mohamed alias Dhere

104. Chief Mohamed Yusuf Mohamed alias Nero

105. Mr. Musse Afjar

106. Mr. Ali Osman alias Shabelow

107. Mr. Mohamed Jama Aw Mohamed alias Ato (businessman)

108. Mr. Ismael Mohamed Salah alias Qable

109. Mr. Hurdale

110. Ms. Asli Yusuf Mohamed alias Qalow-Qalow"

 

No one group is except from the dirty politics surrounding our nation’s collective mishap and insisting otherwise, I am sorry to say is really very inconsistent and naive of you Abtigiis.

[Abtigiis]

Originally posted by Shilling:

Do you really vividly recall such evil? Then you don't mind sharing the story of Abdisaid Ali with the rest of SOL:

 

" ...Let me remind you where I was one terrible night in Kismayu. In December 1992,...They insulted him and beat him. A short time after they arrived, Jess himself arrived. ...Jess went over to where Dr. Mohamed was lying on the ground and told the soldiers to kill him. They let out a burst of gunfire. Then the soldiers grabbed Dr. Mohamed's older

daughter and gang-raped her. The whole time I was frozen in terror and shock from what I was witnessing.

It won't belittle the damage done to inncoent people by the filthy warlord Jess but the number of people said to have been killed is wrong. All evidences suggest it was 30 men. That is what I heard. Ina-Cumar-jees is a warlord, just like Abdullahi Yusuf, and Aideed (who threw hundreds of wailing children and mothers for the crocordiles).

 

But something about the gang-raping is fishy. In the entire Somali civil war, and mainly in the North where our clan actively persecuted the northerners the act of rape was never mentioned to have been committed by our clan members. It goes against the basic culture and wartime morality of our community. What makes even more suspicious the accounts of Abdisaid is that he mentions Jess himself witnessed the rape. It is very unlikely that happened. I can imagine Abdullahi Yusuf ordering the killing of his political opponents, I know he will not condone the raping of them. Jess belongs to the old generation which abhors rape. Maadaama qofku danbiile yahay dartii in wax uuna samayn la saarana ma haboona.

 

Killing is not a lesser sin than raping, but it is better to talk about what has happened the way they are. And don't forget it is traumatic for survivors of such horror that they can really exaggerate what was done to their brothers out of sheer anger.

 

RAPE is simply non-existent in the dictionary of the Tolka I know.

[Jacpher]

^War isku xishood waxba ku hadli meysidee. Adigu hadaad u cudurdaareyso, rag baa shaahid ka ahaa dambiyada Ina Jees.

 

Shilling: OMG! That list brought back terrible memory. I vividly remember that day and the mass murder of the innocent odayaal iyo cuqaal by Ina Jees. I was lucky to have met one of the elders who survived that day before he passed away few years back. May Allah shower them with Jannah.

[Abtigiis]

wax cudur daar ah meesha kuma qorin. I denied rape happened and disputed the numbers. Adiguse, dee ka dhex bah arinka, I am talking to Shilling.

[Jacpher]

^Adiga lagu weydiinmayo what took place that day, unless you're one of the *****adii ina-Jees staffka u ahaa maalintaas. Wallaan marqaati lagaaga dhigeyn. Ilaah baa marqaati ugu filan masaakiintii guryahooda lagala baxay.

[Hamse]

militia member ATT has reached a new low to now become an apologist for warlord cursedman cumar jees.

 

look at the lack of valor and honor on this list. lool.

 

1 --- onlf boy blows up himself in mogaidshu killing the best of the best of somali people

 

2 --- omar jees rounds up the best of the best of a whole clan in kismayo and shoots them on the forhead one by one which is something no warlord has ever, ever done after all these years.

 

3 --- onlf boys come to a hostpital, pick 17 injured , helpless and desperate prisoners and shoots them on their beds. the killed men were all from hiiraale's clan. it has never happened anywhere in all of somalia after years of brutal civil war.

 

 

hadii cid ceeb u dhimanesyo, onlf boys baa mar hor bakhtiylaha.

[Hamse]

Originally posted by Abtigiis & Tolka:

Yes, but some more than the others. Some, who who brought the historical enemy to the Somali capital.

The governor of the biggest oppressor, the most brutal, the eliminator of women and children is Illey [or whatever his name is], who is from your clan. that governor is the biggest spy for meles and has thousands of onlf somalis in his hands. the stuppedo was dancing on the streets when siraad was killed and he claimed that the terrorist is dead. that is your people my friend. yeey did the best he could do to stop the murderous alshbabab.

 

check minister janagow comment who now admits it was a mistake to fight yeey my friend.

[Hamse]

terible list. these innocent people were shot by omar jees on the forhead one by one.

 

thanks for the list shilling.

 

hese are some of the people they massacred that night:

 

1. Abdikarim Ahmed (Lawyer)

2. Chief Dhuh Ahmed Salah

3. Mr. Abdi Ahmed Salah (businessman, brother to number 2)

4. Dr. Sugulle Ahmed Mohamed (Economist)

5. Mr. Mohamed Olad Isse Karshe (businessman)

6. Mr. Yusuf Dahir Ali

7. Mr. Farah Ahmed Saleh

8. Chief Abdi Yusuf Dhuh alias Maneno

9. Mr. Ahmed Abdullahi Mire

10. Mr. Ali Omar Osman

11. Mohamed Abdirizak Hersi

12. Dr. Mohamed Dahir Nur alias Lugey..(I was there)

13. Mr. Jama Ader

14. Ugas Hashi Farah Ambar alias Daqarre

15. Mr. Ali Warabe Garon

16. Mr. Mohamud Ahmed Asayr alias Ga'ir

17. Mr. Hassan Dahir Ali Gaban

18. Mr. Mohamud Farah Osman (Tetano)

19. Dr. Mohamud Musse Sugulle

20. Mr. Ainab Mohamud Said

21. Farah Aden Hassan

22. Abdillahi Isse

23. Mr. Abdullahi Tunniyow

24. Mr. Yusuf Hundhur

25. Dr. Mohamud Mohamed Abdi

26. Ms. Faduma Musse Sugulle

27. Ms. Ruqiya Musse sugulle (Sister of number 26)

28. Mr. Abdullahi Isse Samatar

29. Son of number 28

30. Mr. Abdullahi Said Samatar

31. Son of number 30

32. Chief Abdillahi Haji Yusuf alias Gurie (nephew to former Obbia King)

33. Mr. Abdi Hassan Farah

34. Hassan Farah Samantar

35. Mr. Abdi Garas Haji

36. Mr. M. Aden

37. Dr. Abdullahi Sheekh Ali alias Gobbe ( Vice president Somali

Institute for Development and Administration)

38. Haji Mire Yusuf Musse (businessman)

39. Chief Haji Ibrahim Garabyare

40. Prof. Abdullahi Abdi Warfa

41. Dr. Abdulkadir Abshir Mohamed

42. Mr. Mohamed Musse Jama alias Madome

43. Mr. Mohamed Ismail Ali

44. Mr. Said Mohamud Abdalle alias Nin-ku-toos

45. Mr. Moallin Awil Mohamed Yusuf

46. Haji Isse Khaire Ali

47. Sheekh Said Mohamed Mohamud Siqe

48. Abdullahi Ali Abdulle

49. Abdi Mohamud Mohamed alias Gobbe

50. Mr. Mohamed Aden Warsame

51. Ms. Asha Bihi

52. Daughter of number 51 ( four years old)

53. Mr. Mohamed Farah

54. Mr. Jama Farah Barre alias Shan-Lire

55. Mr. Mohamed Hersi Rug

56. Mr. Sugulle Hashi Nur

57. Mr. Abdirashid Abdullahi Said

58. Mr. Yusuf Ali Salah

59. Mr. Mohamed Aw Farah

60. Ms. Anab Olad Jama

61. Mr. Ali Ispettore

62. Mr. Mohamed Dahir Agei

63. Mr. Ali Farah Dabagoye

64. Mr. Abdi Gelle Koreie (90 years old----yes Ninety years old!!!)

65. Ms. Ahada Dirie Mohamed

66. Mr. Ahmed Aisane

67. Mr. Ahmed Mohamed Warsame alias Olyo

68. Mr. Yusuf Gure

69. Mr. Yusuf Omar Hassan

70. Mr. Ainab Shire

71. Mr. Mohamud Olow Osman

72. Mr. Mohamed Hassan Mohamud

73. Mr. Mohamed Osman Omar

74. Mr. Jama Omar Alin

75. Mr. Mohamed Aden Farah

76. Mr. Ali Sheekh Farah

77. Mumin Ali Hersi (4 years old !)

78. Farah Hashi Omar ( 2 years old!)

79. Mother of number 78

81. Mr. Mohamed Farah Dhurwa

82. Ms. Basra Ali Hashi

83. Mr. Bashir Ali Gure

84. Mr. Mohamed Addow

85. Mr. Shu'aib Ali Isse-Yare

86. Dr. Mohamud Mohamed Abdirahman

87. Mr. Ali-Gurei Aden

88. Ms. Amina Hussein Farah

89. Chief Haji Ali Mumin Geddi

90. Mr. Abdullahi Haji Ali Abokar

91. Sultan Abdirahman Musse Shire-Farei (brother of the chief of Rer

Mohamud-*********)

92. Sheekh Mohamud Mohamed

93. Mr. Bashir Ahmed

94. Mr. Mohamed Dahir (school-teacher)

95. Major Abdulkadir Aftoje

96. Son of Bashir Qoslaye

97. member of the family of number 96

98. Mr. Mohamed Said Garweine

99. Mr. Isse Afqalloc

100. Raage

101. Col. Mohamed Mohamud Yusuf alias Labo-Tinle

102. Dr. Mohamed Said Mohamed alias Dhalawa-former director Kismayu Port

103. Mr. Mohamud Salah Mohamed alias Dhere

104. Chief Mohamed Yusuf Mohamed alias Nero

105. Mr. Musse Afjar

106. Mr. Ali Osman alias Shabelow

107. Mr. Mohamed Jama Aw Mohamed alias Ato (businessman)

108. Mr. Ismael Mohamed Salah alias Qable

109. Mr. Hurdale

110. Ms. Asli Yusuf Mohamed alias Qalow-Qalow"

[Maaddeey]

Originally posted by Abtigiis & Tolka:

I can imagine Abdullahi Yusuf ordering the killing of his political opponents, I know he will not condone the raping of them. Jess belongs to the old generation which abhors rape.

Maadaama qofku danbiile yahay dartii in wax uuna samayn la saarana ma haboona.

 

A & T,

 

Warkaas waa sax, laakiin yaa kaa akhrisanaaya hee!!, adba dadka kale kama akhrisatid markay qolyo aad mucaaradsantahay dooddu joogto.