Puntland laughs of secessionist claims..

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by Artful Dodger:

The Point

 

Bro, You made a good point

 

but in terms of self-determination in the United Nations Human Rights Charter, the degree to which that self-determination is taken is up to the people. there is no convention in their that states that self-determination should be in an autonomy form for full scale independence as state. that is for the people themselves to decide.

True enough though stating the obvious. There has to be a more reasonable explanation than they can do so. The question is why should they do so?

 

Now somaliland folk have realised for them to have any chance of governing themseleves their best situation would be to have independence to run their country. their reason has largely to do with them having seen enough in 30 years being part of the Somali republic that in a union with the south their people and their needs have always been undermined and the massacre and Genocide in the late 1980's early 90's was the final straw of neglect and abuse they suffered as part of Union with South somalia.

 

Walaal - the neglect of a place like Boasaaso(and others) was worse than the neglect of Hargeisa, Burco or Berbera pre-1988. The killings and atrocities in the South are just as bad if not worse. Additionally a quarter of million people starved to death in Bay and Bakool.

 

Can you therefore blame them for becoming disilusioned with ever being part of another union with south somalia, be it as part of federalist governance system or not? Simple answer no.

As shown in the above paragraph - suffering is hardly the domain of one group. As to the union - note this - the union did not cause the injustices you talked about. The injustices were caused by a bloodthirsty, tryannical, divisive dictator.

 

Why is federalism no good? I don't think you addressed that.

 

The best path forward for Somaliland is continued independent governance and that is their predominent wish which i feel should be adhered to.

 

Again - you clearly failed to demonstrate why independance rather than radical autonomy.

 

Another question - if those regions of Sool and Sanaag decide to throw their lot in with the other Somalis - would accept a truncated Somaliland state as such?

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by Mj. bada Cas:

The Point,

 

Only you know what can satify you, howevever. In this world we live in today, you have to lead by example.

True enough but a reasonable argument has never failed to satisfy me. I hope that is what you present here.

 

People raise the blue flag sing 'somaliyey tosoo' yet in reality they owe more loyalty to qabiil than to country at large.

True enough. I highly doubt, however, that Somaliland has escaped that blight!

 

That being said, Somaliland doesn't see anyone promoting good governance in Somalia. Every single member that is elected in Southern Somalia is former criminal or a foe to the Somaliland people.

Somaliland is hardly a model of good governance saaxib. What it is - is the best model of decent governance that exists today on the Somali peninsula.

 

Every single member?? This is the kind of hyperbolic crap that is the signpost of a crappy argument.

 

Saaxib - the question is autonomy within a federal structure as opposed to independance.

 

Let us assume that Abdullahi Yusuf and the TFG suceeded without ever bringing Ethiopia into Somalia. Do you think Somaliland would join that federal government?

 

I think not, the reason being is because they know what kinda of individual Abdullahi Yusuf is.

 

Odd. You embrace Kaahin but A/Y is a complete beast. The only reason he's there is because, inexplicably, his fellow delegates chose him. Now if you(Somaliland) were to throw in your lot with Somalia - I doubt A/Y will continue on as prez.

 

So let us seperat fantasies or what 'ifs' from the discussion. Somaliland is proving itself that they can manage their part of map pretty nicely without even much of foreign aid, at the same token the other Somalis are proving that they are unable to get their acts together given millions of dollars worth of aid and expense of many efforts to reconciliate their differences. These people for some reason don't want to get their acts together.

I don't know why you seek to disparage all Somalis except those in Somaliland. Yes - Somaliland has shown it can manage. So has Puntland. They are not as sophisticated politically as Somaliland but some semblance of decent authority is there. And even through the chaos of Mog pre-ICU - much positive economically was happening. And quite frankly - large parts of the south while not having any organized authority kept the peace and allowed for people to get on their lives. The picture you paint of Somalia without Somaliland is inaccurately bleak and simply not supported by facts.

 

Millions of dollars of aid?? Now you're the one indulging in fantasies. There was no meaningful aid to southern Somalia since the UNOSOM pullout. The payment of hotels and airfares for assorted warlords to cajole them to form a government can hardly be construed as aid.

 

Again, Somalilanders have chosen to remain seperate and have absulately nothing to do with Southern Somalia. This is permanant decision reached by the Somalilanders, therefore let us not waste time on 'why' however let us discuss 'how'. How can the trust between the people be restored and how can their be lasting peace between Somaliland and Somalia without another blood shed.

LOL - you have barely addressed the 'why'- now you wish to move on? You're not much of debater eh?

 

Absolutely nothing to do with the South?? There are vital economic, social and other links. I doubt Somaliland is an island unto itself.

 

To simply answer your question, it's the people's choice. They say no to fake unity, and nay to federal government which is another case of unity.

It certainly is the choice of a significant segment of Somaliland's population but you have not, again, addressed why the alternative of independance vs autonomy in a federal structure is the reasonable choice.

 

PS - What the hell is fake unity?

[Che -Guevara]

1. Majority of them support the TFG. They give hiil iyo hooba because they associate clanwise with a man that spearheads the TFG, Abdullahi Yusuf.

By this logic, I guess the only reason that you support the Somaliland is simply your tribe enjoys a complete political domination in the north west.

 

 

Currently as we speak there is no republic, the republic that once existed was fought by all Somalis, how ill visioned are you che?

Well, there is no nation or state called Somaliland either. That doesn't stop you supporting or hoping for an indepedent Somaliland. Why should Somalis abandon the idea of a united Somalia.

 

 

Somaliland is the most prospering region, yet they oppose it though they know they could gain many things such economical development. A good example would be the difference between Awdal and Sool. Awdal has benefited and Sool is still lagging behind. Both regions is resided by non X tribes.

Depends on what your consider prosperity. Somaliland like all other Somali regions depend on the remittances from abroad, and the aid from foriegn donors. The administration's entire budget doesn't exceed 30mill (correct me if iam wrong). It doesn't have enough resources to provide education, health, effective policing, and civic duties to the public in Waqooyi Galbeed let alone those in SSh. The little it has goes to the pockets of public servants and armed forces. The only thing Somaliland could offer Sanaag and Sool a slice of the aid coming from international donors.

 

 

Actually Somaliland doesnt' rule nor have any say in most parts of Sool, it's absent. Their kinsmen from Puntland rule most parts of sool and Eastern Sanaag. Somaliland hasn't been given teh chance to even try to meet with elders or groups from the area. No Somaliland's politica figure can show up there, even if their was to build a school or hospital. The first things that would come to mind would be he is from Hargeysa, therefore he has no right to be here.

First of all, Somaliland can't afford to build schools and hospitals. That's plain false. Almost all new facilities all over Somalia are built by foriegn or by Somali diasporo communities.

 

And since, you stated that people in these regions don't welcome officials from Hargeysa, why do you think it is that way?

 

 

Very simple. What do you have? what have you provided? Everything about Southern somalis or should I say 'proper' somalis has been a big failure.

The problem with Somalia is the capital once run by marauding warlords ,and now controlled by defunct organization imposed on the citizenry by foriegn mercenaries with the mighty Dollar. The rest of somalia has always been for most part at peace, and places like Pland has functioning system. Majority in the south are willing to coexist together and move forward as one nation.

Somaliland on its part has achieved peace and stability, but nothing to warrant for it to become its own indepedent nation. Surely, Somaliland could have engaged with more peaceful southern regions, the obvious being the neighbor on its east. I would admit the idea of Mogadisho goverment coming to reconcile looks like distant dream now, but the reality is Somaliland is as divided as the south ( though not as volatile)since the administration in hargeysa doesn't enjoy support all over the eastern regions. So, why not engage with other peaceful regions, and move towards an effort to unify the nation.

 

And finally and I hope you don't dodge this question, why not become an autonomous region within a federal system if you are seeking is self-governance and management of your own resources?

[SOO MAAL]

Red sea,

 

Horta Salaamu Calaykum,

 

Waaban yaabay, oo shiikhiii maxaa helay?!!!

 

 

sxb siyaasada soomaalidu mid la af-fahmayo maaha ee yeenan madaxa ku wereerin

 

People can have different political views, but still we are all Somali and Muslim people

 

I didn’t want first to respond, but you went very far persisting that people from SSC are qabiilist, they dont support unity, somalinimo etc and their regoin is the least developed

 

Sxb, I am not saying to sugar coat, you have every right to express your views, I am saying to avoid condemning only one region/clan, its really not healthy and just to be fair

 

Walaal, I didn’t understand the reason that convinced you to accuse only people from SSC as qabiil-minded people and their region as the least developed region in north Somalia or all Somalia

 

Regarding the qabiil, if people from SSC support unity because qabiil, likewise people from northwest support secession/somaliland for tribal reasons as well,

 

Hadii sida aad aduu ku doodoso ee wuxuba qabiil tahay, ma la oran karaa markaa Somaliland baa ka gardaran Puntland??

 

The idea of dividing brotherly somali people along colonial borders without their will is ridiculous and unjust because our people who share a long history before even colonials, religion, geography, language, culture,

 

Ma jiraan wax hurumar oo weyn oo ee gobolada soomaaliyeed isku dhaamaan

In reality, more or less all Somali regions have relatively same level of development

There is political crisis in SSC region; however I don't believe that Sool, Sanaag are the least developed region in North Somalia or all Somalia

 

Somaliland and Puntland never did anything good, how can then people of SSC expect from them anything? most of the African governments are exist in name only

 

Most projects like hospitals, universities, schools in Somalia, is established by local people whether they are in Somalia or in overseas, for example Amoud University, Burco University, Puntland state university, Nugaal University or Buuhoodle Hospital

The credit should go to the people not corrupt regimes

 

Both Burco university and Nugaal University were established 2004,

 

Inkastoo ee ani shakhsiyan ilatahay in gobolada soomaaliyeed ee kale wax badan ku dhaamin gobolada SSC haga horumarka, lakiin hadeeba taasi jirtu anuu waan u hanbelyaanayaa waana u bgaadinayaa gobolada aad xustay sida Togdheer, woqooyi galbeed, iyo Awdal horimarka ee gaareen,

qofka muslim ka ahi waa inuu la jeclaaadaa walaalkii waxa uu naftiisa la jecelyahay

 

Hadii ee rabaan gobolada woqooyi galbeed inay ka go'aan walaalhood soomaaliyeed, waaxaanu leenahay Illaahay haa idin garab kalo hadii aa sidaa garateen, dhinaca kale dadka gobolada woqooyi galbeed ku dhaqan waa inay ixtiraamaan dadka gobolada SSC maadaama ee doorteen inay somalia raacaan

 

 

Mida kale, you claim that secession is for the best interest for the people of northwest since its their choice, while at the same time you claim that unity with the rest of Somalia is not for the best interest for the people of SSC although its their choice to remain in union. Are you asserting that people from SSC don’t know their best interest as well??!!!!

[Aaliyyah]

Red,

 

 

Do you support the TFG, since you are claiming to be proud somali sista masha Allah.

When we are talking about the issues of unity and secession, there is no need to debate about governments like TFG TNG, or individuals like Abdulaahi Yusuf, Riyaale, Buubaa because they come and go.

 

If we are discussing about TFG, its relevant to talk Abdulahi Yusuf, but we are not talking abt TFG

 

Its like asking do you support waraabe, riyaale?

 

Or Ahmed Yusuf Yasin (Vice-president) who said few months ago that its better somalilanders to die in adhicadeeye than daroor, and more recently he said that people of SSC should leave SSC or they will be massacred, he also said Garowe will be bombarded

 

Markaa lets not talk about corrupt politicians and their regimes

 

You can open another thread if you are interested to discuss about TFG, so stick to the topic.

 

This has nothing to do with qabiil

You are being sarcastic

 

but I here to prove that folks such as you are nothing but what I refer as fake flag wavers.

Why are you bringing the issue of the Somali flag here? Speaking of fake which flag is fake and not even known by most of the world?? hmm , I guess you are smart enough to figure that out for yourself...you still cant figure it out and here I thought it was quite obvious, lemme give you a hint it was created October 14 1996

 

I am puting you on the spo. You love Somali so much, then what is your position regarding the TFG, which is supported by Ethiopia which in turn killed 1,000 somali people in less than a week.

Majority of Somali people are proud of their country and they are against Ethiopian involvement.

 

Most north-westerners/somalilanders support Somaliland government led by Riyaale/the former NSS officer, but does that mean they support the Ethiopia’s use of Barbara port or Ethiopia’s involvement in Somalia although Riyaale sided with Ethiopia? I hope not

 

 

Don't Judge a group of people by actions Of a Few!

 

 

wa salaamu alaikum

[Che -Guevara]

^^^^^LoooooL@people Badacas waa lagu goobtay. Hal Hal u soo baxa

[RedSea]

Che-Guevara,

 

First, Pland is considered parts of Southern Somalia. The day Xamar becomes peaceful state is the day that negotitionas can start.

 

Second, the wishes of the people come into play here. The Somalilanders have said no to unity and yes to Secession. It's really meaningless to argue, however I do respect your opinion.

 

 

The Point,

 

Nothing to debate here sir. The people's wishes are on the table. If the people in Somaliland have decided to go down that path, what exactly is there to create big fuzz about?

 

Somalilanders have made up their mind, I dont think electing TFG like so called government will convince anyone.

 

As for economical liability. Did you not know that Somaliland is sitting on natural gas, the only thing that Southern Somlia has that we don't is Galay (corn) and banana. but then again we can import that as well, not a problem.

 

 

Soo maal,

 

Though, you showed up bit late, but nonethless that is fine.

 

I am NOT labeling Sool and Eestern Sanag folks as qabalist, but I have made the assertion that simply they support the TFG which we all know doesn't represent all somalis nor is working for the interests of anyone. therefore I believe the claim that those individuals case that they aren't on Somaliland banwagon isn't about nationlistic, but rather in fear of being politically dominated by tribe X, so they would rather side with Abdullahi Yusuf who is their closest kinsmen.

 

Not to say they whole population is just as I pointed out, however majority of such tribe side with Abdullahi Yusuf regardless of the TFG is about as long as they feel 'safe' in an entity led by their clansmen.

 

 

Again, reer sool and Sanag can go their own way if they choose to.

 

Aaliyah,

 

No I don't support Faysal Cali Warabe, Riyale Kahin. However I support the wishes of the people of Somaliland, they want to secede, that is what I respect you should as well.

 

Besides, I always thought you supported the TFG. The reason I brought that up is I believe one who supports the TFG shall not have say in this debate.

 

There are no majority of Somalis anymore. The ones in Xamar don't consider the ones in Planders as true somalis, however they consider them as pro Xabashis who dragged Ethiopians into the country to slaughter them.

 

Secondly, sure enough IN yey and Riyale are individuals. However, majority of one tribe supports him and his cause. And suprise suprise they wave the blue flag....ring a bell, yes fake flag wavers. That is where I got that idea from.

 

Now: Some of us are hiding in the smoke. But I have to ask, who is who here?

 

I am supporting Xabashi invasion into my land, yet I am claiming to be for Somaliwayne and I am arguing against the case of Somaliland becasue they are dividing brotherly people isn't a good case saaxibayaal.

 

So let us seperate the pretenders from the real somaliwayn supporters. I know some here are arguing in order to get the chance to critize an entity like Somaliland while arguing for Somaliwayne and yet they support the TFG.

 

So who is who?

[Che -Guevara]

Bacadacas....You haven't really answered anything. If it just comes down to the wishes, then it is my contention that majority of the people in Sool and Sanaag want to be part of united Somalia. Hopefully, the entity in Hargeisa would respect that, and not create mayhem in these regions in it's futile quest to gain independence.

[me]

Originally posted by Che-Guevara:

^^^^^LoooooL@people Badacas waa lagu goobtay. Hal Hal u soo baxa

I don't like you people stealing my punching bag, get your own!

[RedSea]

Che, Let us not blind ourselves here. Because quite honestly, I can go on and on all day, and give the same answer everytime. I have done it at least twice now.

 

One more time here it goes.

 

The question you are repeating over and over again is the same,which i provided with plainly simple, crystal clear answer.

 

Your question is something like why wouldn't somaliland become an automous state part of federal of Somlia?

 

correct?

 

Now, being part of automous state of federal of Somalia or simply being another state doesnt' make any difference to Somalilanders. It's still the same deal.

 

They WISH to be their own COMPLETELYL seperate entity that have their own passport, army, flag all due to the wishes of Somalilanders.

 

Sool and Eastern Sanaag can make their wishes, whether it will be respected by Somaliland, I don't know, because currently Somalilanders arent getting respect for their chosen path, so it goes both ways I gues.

 

However, if you expect the entity in Hargeysa to respect the wishes of Sool and Eastern Sanaag then I expect the same from POSSIBLE entities in Muqdisho simple as that. And to borrow your statementwill not create a mayhem in Somaliland in its futile quest to force union down the people throats.

[RedSea]

mr. me..

 

Hey sweatheart join the discusion or stay on the side lines.

 

I am still waiting your little usual calalcal of we are Somalis who share the same culture, race crap.

[me]

Originally posted by Mj. bada Cas:

mr. me..

 

Hey sweatheart join the discusion or stay on the side lines.

 

I am still waiting your little usual calalcal of we are Somalis who share the same culture, race crap.

Now your getting silly, I can see we are almost near the breaking point, should I book you a holiday from SOL.

 

As you suggested I will stay on the side lines. these tourists will leave soon, but I am a resident so I will spare my calaacal.

[RedSea]

loool....sure enough. Looking forward.

 

it's not sillyness it's called sense of humour mate, try it. It does your mind a fine rest.

[Che -Guevara]

Badacas...I don't mind to budger duqa, but it looks you have no real answers to the questions posted by the members. Your only contention is the wish of Somaliland to break away from rest of Somalia. If it is all about the wishes, hopefully your lot will learn to respect the wishes of Sool and Sanaag whether be motivated Qabiil or Fake Somalinimo as I would like to put.

[RedSea]

First of all take a look at the answer you started asking, then look at the answers I have provided. I don't really think you are reading my replies really carefully.

 

First of all, as for as case to present to the world. Though you have heard about it numerous times before. it's vialbe case to convice the world. The case that Somaliland was granted nationhood by the British in 1960 few days before joining union with the South and a result of disasterous union, Somaliland has decided to return to seperate entity today. I don't want spend too much time on this one, as you have heard of it before.

 

Let me proceed to the most important one. Which you and many other are still over looking. I realy don't understand how you can take this lightly?

 

Can anything be agreed upon without all parties involved, can house be built without a written contract from its owner. NO NO.

 

In this case Somalilanders, the majority of them that is do NOT want to do anything with Southern Somalia. A union was tried, Somaliwayne was pursued, the outcome is nothing but a failure. Now Somalilanders feel it's time to look for another way to catch with the world. Another way to finally enjoy prosperity which majority of them never saw during the terror regime of Siyad Barre.

 

This is their wish, they wish to go down their own way, it's called self determination. It's basic human right mr. che, and nothing is far more important or non is better case, if one tell you I wish not to do that, but I wish to do this.

 

Whether you may think it's wrong or not, it's their call, its their survival that is depending on them.

 

In addtion, I am still to this day amused on how some Southern Somalis are still arguing for Somaliwayne which they never experienced or saw. I think it's utter fantasy. And the people I know will never be able to attain it. What people am I talking about? well the people who can't even get along in ONE single village. Whoever came up with the idea of Somaliwayne was dreaming, it was a good dream, however it has been ruined by previous regimes, and the people have changed their mind about it, particularly Somalilanders. The want to try another dream called seperate country call Somaliland. There is nothing wrong with it, and there is nothing terrible about it. You can preach on how we are same poeple with same faith and etc...however the fact of the matter is so do many other countries around the world. They are all doing fine, let us not waste our time on denying Somalilanders of their rights and wishes, you should rather work on your own house then maybe work on how you would coexist with Somaliland peacefully. That is common sesne based on the realities on the ground, and not a fantasy danced here with by many of you.