Puntland laughs of secessionist claims..

[RedSea]

Che,

 

Brother, the wishes of the people is the most important thing here. Can you name anything more important than that?

 

From what happened in the previous union, the people in Somaliland have chosen to this time try a different way of life. Thus far though not recognised they have reached incredible goals, not expected from anyone specially considering the obstacles they had to deal with and how quick they recovered from the damages done by the previous dicatator regime!

 

If you respect the people' wishes, then they have chosen to remain seperate. Only thing that can turn them back might be a force, though I doubt that is possible either, and I don't think you would suggest that would you?

 

Secondly, again the troubled areas of Sool and Sanaag as I said have their wishes, I don't know if you missed my point there. But they can go their own seperate ways as well. Only the willing in this case can remain with Somaliland.

 

In addition, the state of Awdal have every reason to stay wiht Somaliland as Awdal is better than it has EVER been, offcourse there are even some folks from Hargeysa, burco and Berbera against seccesion but their numbers are relatively small the same goes to Awdal. The majority of them support the Somaliland independence.

 

If they weren't then it would have been evident like it's from Sool residents.

 

Contrary to Sool and E. Sanag, the people in Awdal wave and do celebrate the Somaliland UDI (declaration of independence in '91) and flag and are one big important piece in the case of Somaliland, even the Riyale Kahin dude is from there as well as you might be aware of already.

 

 

Finally, I am not accusing them folks in Eastern Sanaag and Sool of clanism, but I am saying it has less to do with the love of Somalinimo that Sool and Eastern Sanaag folks want to have nothing to do with Somaliland. They fear mostly of being dominated politically by Clan X which is the majority in Somaliland. That hasn't been the case for Awdal as Borama the capital of Awdal is more developed than Berbera and even Burco perhaps.

 

As far as Qabiil wise, yes the city of Caynabo and Oog are both in Sool, both are resided by clans related to Hargeysa. Also Western Sanaag is resided by clans related to hargeysa, so they do want to remain with Somaliland. As you know Ceerigabo is resided in some parts clans related to majority tribe in Somaliland, though even the non X tribe in that area mostly SEEM to support Somaliland' case.

[A.J.]

Che,

 

I think i may be able to shed further light on this issue.

 

The main reason that i believe the Somaliland surge for Independence is justified is-

 

Because it is a basic prinicple of the United Nations Charter of Human for everyone to have a right for Self-determination if he or she seeks. it was confirmed in the 2001 referendum that the Somaliland population unanimously wished for this to happen.

 

This is the basic principle that has to be adhered to when it comes to this issue. all the other issues are important but they are not the underlying principle of what governs the right to self-determination.

 

In terms of the people living in Sanaaq and Sool who you say dont support the Somaliland quest for Independence, they shouldnt be annexed into Somaliland by force but should be given the right to join Somalia if that is their wish. but this would have to be surveyed first by an independent body, to divide up the region so that the people who do want to be part of Somaliland can do so.

 

As long as that is possible i think everybody will be reasonable. i hope

 

Qabiil should not come into it but if people want to use that to justify whether they want to be part of Somalia or Somaliland that is their personal opinion and freedom of speech should allow that

[RedSea]

Originally posted by Artful Dodger:

 

 

Because it is a basic prinicple of the United Nations Charter of Human for everyone to have a right for Self-determination if he or she seeks. it was confirmed in the 2001 referendum that the Somaliland population unanimously wished for this to happen.

Another good point there Dodgerow. Hadii aynaan indhaha iska ridin, we all know the consequence and the outcome it could have when that basic right isn't allowed.

 

Simple as that.

[xiinfaniin]

Somaliland’s quest to separate from the rest of Somalia is clannishly inspired and it does indeed reek with the shameful legacy of yesteryear’s British colony. It flies in the face of the hopeful aspirations of millions of Somalis to be united under the mantra of One God and ruled by a government that reflects their values. Above all I have to yet hear a reasonable argument for this cause. It’s no surprise then that this project is inherently fated to fail. One would be wise therefore to not spend his intellectual muscle to advance such a scheme.

 

Xiin’s two taano…

[A.J.]

Mujaahid,

 

I think this is a point often swept aside but it is of the utmost importance to those that understand basic Human rights, and like you said the outcome and consquences of denying this human right has seen many atrocities committed. therefore it is of a very important nature to fully understand the application and the context of this principle in the United Nations Charter of Human Rights

[xiinfaniin]

^^lol@Human Right.

 

Waryee dalkaad rabtaa inaad kala goyso markaas baad human rights lasoo shirtagaysaa.

 

come again..

[Che -Guevara]

If you respect the people' wishes, then they have chosen to remain seperate. Only thing that can turn them back might be a force, though I doubt that is possible either, and I don't think you would suggest that would you?

 

 

I would respect the choice made by reer Waqooyi, and by the same token, I would hope the entity in Hargeisa will respect the wishes of Sanaag and Sool.

 

Secondly, again the troubled areas of Sool and Sanaag as I said have their wishes, I don't know if you missed my point there..

 

Just to clarify what do you think are their wishes?

 

Finally, I am not accusing them folks in Eastern Sanaag and Sool of clanism, but I am saying it has less to do with the love of Somalinimo that Sool and Eastern Sanaag folks want to have nothing to do with Somaliland. They fear mostly of being dominated politically by Clan X which is the majority in Somaliland. That hasn't been the case for Awdal as Borama the capital of Awdal is more developed than Berbera and even Burco perhaps.

 

As far as Qabiil wise, yes the city of Caynabo and Oog are both in Sool, both are resided by clans related to Hargeysa. Also Western Sanaag is resided by clans related to hargeysa, so they do want to remain with Somaliland. As you know Ceerigabo is resided in some parts clans related to majority tribe in Somaliland, though even the non X tribe in that area mostly SEEM to support Somaliland' case.[/i] [/QB]

Again here, you are being contradictory and self reassuring when it comes to the wishes of eastern Sanaag and Sool. First, you have no any real evidence to suggest the only reason the good of SSH want to stay with Somali proper is because of Qabiilism.Is there an actual survey to suggest just an assertion.

 

And again, how could accuse of Qabiilism when you yourself claim parts of Sool and Sanaag by hightling the tribal connections between some residents in these regions, and those of Hargeysa. Saaxib, you either take the Qabiil equation out of debate or don't accuse the SSH of Qabiilism.

 

Artel Dodger....What are preferred goals of Somaliland's self determination. Is it necesitated by need for a degree of political, cultural and econimical autonomy or do the people of Somaliland felt that they are under colonial occupation?

[General Duke]

^^^Che, I must commend you for your stance in this latest exchange.

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by Artful Dodger:

Che,

 

I think i may be able to shed further light on this issue.

 

The main reason that i believe the Somaliland surge for Independence is justified is-

 

Because it is a basic prinicple of the United Nations Charter of Human for everyone to have a right for Self-determination if he or she seeks. it was confirmed in the 2001 referendum that the Somaliland population unanimously wished for this to happen.

 

I doubt anyone is against self-determination. Paricularly after the disastrous policy of concentrating all the power and assets in Mog. The question is why not seek self-determination through federalism within Somalia rather than outright independance. No supporter of Somaliland independance has been able to answer that to my satisfaction.

[ElPunto]

^War Duke - maa iska amustid. He will turn on you next with that comment

[A.J.]

The Point

 

Bro, You made a good point

 

but in terms of self-determination in the United Nations Human Rights Charter, the degree to which that self-determination is taken is up to the people. there is no convention in their that states that self-determination should be in an autonomy form for full scale independence as state. that is for the people themselves to decide.

 

Now somaliland folk have realised for them to have any chance of governing themseleves their best situation would be to have independence to run their country. their reason has largely to do with them having seen enough in 30 years being part of the Somali republic that in a union with the south their people and their needs have always been undermined and the massacre and Genocide in the late 1980's early 90's was the final straw of neglect and abuse they suffered as part of Union with South somalia.

 

Can you therefore blame them for becoming disilusioned with ever being part of another union with south somalia, be it as part of federalist governance system or not? Simple answer no.

 

The best path forward for Somaliland is continued independent governance and that is their predominent wish which i feel should be adhered to.

 

Che,

 

brother you make a lot of sense,

 

it is difficult to say which parts of Sool& Sanaaq are part of Somaliland and which parts wish to remain as part of the Somali republic. again this will have to be independently surveyed to analyse the real stats and figure from which a peaceful resolution for the area can be drawn up

 

I think that is the wish of all of us and may it happen soon, insha-allah

[Aaliyyah]

The third question lies under the same category as the previous one. So no I don't support any force to be used against ANYONE, Sool and Sanaag can go with their own desires, that is a human right. However, mostly they are anti Somaliland not only because of seccesion but because of Qabiil, therefore, we should note that areas in Sool and Sanaag are resided by clans related to Hargeysa.

Bada cas You have claimed that it is all about qabiil that some northerns are against the secession, and I am truly surprised that you would come up with such an ignorant comment, shows how norrow minded you are. If we do bring qabiil into this picture, it is quit obvious that somaliland want to create one tribe state.

 

Anyhow, I have previously mentioned in another post, that somalilanders are simply double standard forcing some northerns to join somaliland ?? yet fighting for the so called freedom?? :rolleyes:

We are proud somalis ,and want to do absolutely nothing with you so called "Somalilanders", isn't that reason enough? or u lot have to dig for more?? Besides, I would say all this fuss aint worth it, we are all aware of that Somaliland will never be internationally recognized.

 

wa salaaamu alaikum

[A.J.]

Aaliyah,

 

If there are people who do not want to be part of Somaliland they will be given a right to remain part of Somalia. But can you prove the number of these people and where they reside? if it can be established by independent Census then they will be given their right to remain in Somaliland. it is key that you remember that Somaliland will not annexe anybody into its territory by force

[RedSea]

che,

 

You are still failing to see big parts of my arguments. Instead of speaking for the sake of debate or to oppose you should dig deeper into my thoughts and what I have highlighted.

 

Eastern Sanaag and Sool are mostly supporters of the TFG as we speak. There have been many troops that were recruited from the area. Offcourse they know that entity is in error, however do they serve it because it's 'proper' somali government, NO. They serve it because it's government which they feel connected as far as qabiil, with Abdullahi Yusuf being their kinsmen.

 

That being said, they would rather not ever associate with Somaliland, not because Somaliland wants to seceede, however it has alot to do with the majority tribe there which they oppose.

 

There is no such thing as somali proper, there is not a single group that is serving the interests of greater Somalis, the UIC were but they are no longer in power, therefore, each clan and each region will side with their kinsmen, which is the case with Sool and Eastern Sanaag. Most of the inhabitants from this area associate themselves with Puntland, though Puntland has done little or nothing for them, again qabiil loyalty is the key factor here.

 

In addition, to take such stance is not about qabalism or necesarily wrong, however it's NOT about Somalinimo.

 

Yesteryears proud patriots are the ones dragging Ethiopians into somali soil. Somalinimo or the need for Somali unity is a claim, small group of people believe it in their hearts, however the majority will do anything to protect their interests, I don't need to give you further example, take the TFG as an example.

 

Seperate those two key issues.

 

Xiinfaniin,

 

Unity without the tools is meaningless. The tools I am speaking of are the people. The people which consider themselves as pro Somaliwayne, the majority of them do not really know how to attain it. Somaliland's quest whether it might be that of one clan or not is thus far working. With better leadership, I am sure Somaliland would have been alot heck better. The only thing that has worked properly ever since the civil wars has been the entity in Somaliland, whatever somaliland is doing has not been proven wrong, becuase it's the most developed region in the former somali republic, perhaps the most organized in all levels.

 

The so called proud somalis have not been yet able to prove that they can govern even their side of the map, with that as evidence it gives Somaliland even more reasons to seperate.

 

 

Aaliyah,

 

I have already highlighted, though I doubt you read it. But I do respect the wishes of Sool and Eastern Sanaag follks, they can do as THEY WISH.

 

Secondly, I am not accusing them of being qabalists. Their support for Pland or Abdullahi Yusuf who suprise suprise promote Somaliwayne though we know what they have done is about qabiil relations rather than somalinimo.

 

They would do anything for their kinsmen even standing right beside them when they are doing the worst things, like bringing Ethiopians to somalia to kill people, and at the same time would oppose Somaliland, though they claim they are against Somaliland because Sland wants to seceede, however in reality terms, they are in fear of being plotically dominated.

 

This is not about Somalinimo, qabiil is the factor in everything these days.

[A.J.]

Bada Cas

 

You made the right point here and that is that sadly enough gabiil still dominates Somalia and it is the reason people in parts of Sool and Sanaaq wish to use to support puntland, but that is a a matter of their choice and should be left up to them.