Quotable Quotes

[Fabregas]

Originally posted by Khalaf:

Xiin, thats what i been saying for long time, somalia at least the south should be put under Trustship (somewhat like colonization era), maybe this is what Ethiopia wants to do and she won't be able for obvious reasons.... but a Muslim country should do it or even America/Europe which are more capeable then Ethiopia.

 

 

It was already under "trustship" and designated to Somali warlords who got their weapons from lavish hotels in East African countries. But please Akhi dont wish for Southern Somalia to be under the trustship of Americans. They would give the people mcdonalds, coca cola plants and plenty of B5s bombers. Anway no Africans, Muslims etc are coming...the entire world is supporting Ethiopia to stay......

[NGONGE]

Originally posted by Castro:

Xiinow, as long as they don't have the blood of the innocent on their hands, my support goes to anyone who fights the Ethiopians and their dabo-dhilifs.

In other words, you don’t support anyone. Remember, he talked about Aideed and Indhacade there. One was part of the TFG when the Ethiopian army fired its first bullet in the capital and the other (if we believe BiLaal and others) is in charge of the suicidal resistance. Both seem to have blood on their hands! Where exactly does that leave you, saaxib?

 

There is nothing wrong with opposing the Ethiopian occupation and refusing to look at any other options but war. It’s only human to admit that one’s anger in the face of such transgressions can not be restrained. However, when you try to explain it in any separate and rational you’re only being dishonest. Still, anger tends to do that to people.

 

I look at Somalia today and despair at this (seemingly) unsolvable situation. It is not acceptable that Ethiopian soldiers should be stomping in such a way around the land. But then I look at those opposing them and wonder if they’re good enough to merit my support. Maybe if I was living in Somalia right now I would be supporting that Asmara group out of desperation. But I am not. I am sat here at home, in front of my brand new laptop and with a nice cup of cappuccino by my side, as I type these words. I am at liberty to think rationally, leisurely and even frivolously about the fate of my country while women and children get shot and blown up. This might not be to your taste but it is the truth nonetheless.

 

Now what can I do in such a situation? Assume an angry pose to distract my troubled mind from the nightmares it will have if it thought of all those poor civilians being trampled on? Ignore the whole topic and pretend that all is well with the world?

 

I choose to do neither and instead rationalise the whole thing and think of ways to get us out of this quandary. If one of these ways happen to be the lending of my support to the TFG (bear in mind that this is nothing but a vocal support) so be it. At the moment, from this privileged position of mine, and for the reasons I gave BiLaaL in our earlier exchange, I have no other choice but to support those turncoats. Love them or hate them, they got us into this mess and they seem to be the only side that is capable of getting us out of it.

 

If you have another practical way out I would be honoured to hear of it; as long as it is not wishes and dreams. Which, incidentally, even young Khalaf started to exhibit. His ideas of outside trustees is as ludicrous as BiLaaL’s one about supporting the Asmara group because they may (or may not) have a bright future!

 

It is dreams and duplicity that I abhor here more than I do an Ethiopian occupation. You think outside of that angry box of yours and I’ll be sure to be on your side.

 

Xiin,

Nur worries himself about which sections of this forum to share his political ideas in, do you really think you’ll get much wisdom from him when image and other minor considerations are uppermost in his mind.

[Castro]

Originally posted by NGONGE:

Now what can I do in such a situation? Assume an angry pose to distract my troubled mind from the nightmares it will have if it thought of all those poor civilians being trampled on?

Yes.

 

Ignore the whole topic and pretend that all is well with the world?

Yes, sometimes this as well.

 

 

I choose to do neither and instead rationalise the whole thing and think of ways to get us out of this quandary.

Good for you. Email me when you've found a solution. In the meantime, go away and leave me to my anger. :mad:

[BiLaaL]

Paragon

 

The two operative terms you’ve introduced are relevant. I think you’ve more or less struck the right chord on the question of what kind of unity is most sustainable for Somalia.

 

You did a good job exposing both the unsustainably (assuming it gets there) and ineffectiveness of unity under a TFG-led government. I’m also glad that you've touched upon the undesirable affect that the TFG’s bondage to the Ethiopian regime brings about. Ethiopia would most certainly undermine any efforts on the part of the TFG to build strong defence forces and, to a lesser extent, develop its economy. Why wouldn’t they? Concerns in this area are glaringly obvious. I'm surprised at how some have failed to see this critical point.

 

With respect to unity under the ARS, you’re correct that its expansionist tendencies would invite external threats. More recently, however, the ARS has been diplomatic about this issue. It has started to adopt concepts such as self-determination for the concerned regions. Like you’ve correctly pointed out, the ARS have realised the consequences of openly declaring their intention. They would provide moral and military support in private while not abandoning its claim to Somali inhabited areas, in public. In short, they would go along with the rather infamous practice of the West – adopt in private, deny in public. This practice would continue until our economic and military capabilities become strong enough to challenge Ethiopia militarily or until self-determination is granted.

 

I would have to disagree with you on the point that the ARS would have issues integrating Somaliland and Puntland. I think public opinion in both these regions would favour the idea of joining a reunified Somali state. It would all depend on how successful the ARS have been down south. This task should be easier given that the residents of both SL and PL are not entirely happy with the way their leaders govern. Moreover, I don’t think the ARS would wish to create such a union by force – they’d most likely appeal to nostalgic concepts to woo in the public. One might recall that the ICU used Islamic notions of unity and brotherhood coupled with similar Somali ideals to appeal to the public in these regions while in power.

 

The psychological profiling, emotion-based approach to unity is an interesting one. I wouldn’t easily dismiss the force of reason though. Reason hasn’t been given a chance ever since the ousting of Siad Barre. Emotions have been the driving force behind the chaos of the last seventeen years. I acknowledge that you’re alluding to the positive rather than the negative aspect of clan emotion. The problem with appealing to emotion alone, though, is that it is susceptible to manipulation. As we all know, the warlords notoriously used emotion to deceive their respective clans, often on non-existent threats. Much of what the warlords rallied their clans to benefited the warlords not their clans.

 

While your proposal of invoking the psychology behind clan emotion and seeking to use that to reach consensus appears logical in the short term, it will not (to use one of your operative terms) be sustainable in the long-term. I think we should seek solutions which demote the issue of tribalism to where Allah intended it to be. And that is, the maintaining of kith and kin relationships as described in the Quran and Sunnah.

 

As was briefly evident under the ICU, once people get a governing authority which they perceive to be just; the issue of turning to ones clan for economic gain or for protection naturally wanes. Instead of striving to influence the emotions of clan x or y (albeit positively); such a government would be able to use reason instead. It would give an undertaking that it will be just in its dealings with its subjects (from the granting of funds to improve infrastructure in a certain region to more mundane things which directly concern the individual such as equal access to jobs etc).

 

I think the time is right for such an approach. The miseries of the last seventeen years have brought about a unique opportunity. This opportunity comes in the form of the wide consensus, across all sections of the Somali public, that serious steps need to be taken to stem the evil effects of tribalism. One can safely say that tribalism has become a threat to both our social and national security just as some Western countries view terrorism as a threat to their national security.

 

Originally posted by xiinfaniin: If we can’t question this Asmara group and critique its composition and strategies, how good are we from the folks we continually mock and ridicule?

You won't find me calling against criticism of any kind. Lets not limit ourselves to just criticising though. One needs to consider how fair or reasonable one’s criticism is, given the circumstances.

[Fabregas]

choose to do neither and instead rationalise the whole thing and think of ways to get us out of this quandary. If one of these ways happen to be the lending of my support to the TFG (bear in mind that this is nothing but a vocal support) so be it. At the moment, from this privileged position of mine, and for the reasons I gave BiLaaL in our earlier exchange, I have no other choice but to support those turncoats. Love them or hate them, they got us into this mess and they seem to be the only side that is capable of getting us out of it.

 

 

Baad mare hore sidaa iska tidhahdiid?

[NGONGE]

^^ Oh stop being childish and challange the ideas, man. What have you or Castro have to offer other than self-indulgent anger? You've given a historical lesson there that was full of holes and when I challenged you, you promised to come back and deal with those points. Did you? Not at all. Instead, you came back with this limp-wristed insinuation about which group I support. If you're up to the task then come up with some waterproof argument or just step aside and watch others that can. So far, and though I don't agree with all they say, only Xiin and Paragon seem to be arguing these issues with what looks like an objective outlook.

 

BiLaal is still in dreamland. Castro is aimlessly sniping around the place (almost a year later) and Kashafa is being the impulsive foot soldier that he's always been.

 

If you can't explain your positions rationally and with what approaches an objective outlook, don't dare don the holier than thou coat whilst accusing others of being turncoats. You're really not much better than them to be honest. In fact, you're much worse.

 

I've given you a virtual scale and shown you how it leans heavily towards the TFG side. If you have any scraps, morsels or facts to swing the scale to the other side (and the opinions of any readers) please do so. Kindly note that dreams though are weightless and usually add nothing of value.

 

ps

I've long realised that this argument is futile but something keeps urging me to prod you and irritate you further in the hope that this anger of yours will finally manifest itself in something that is a bit more tangible than mere rants and dreams. Maybe I should take a break!

[Fabregas]

Ngonge, firstly I was actually joking with you. But it seems you took it the wrong way. As for not responding to you, I told you before I'm kind busy and to be honest probably just 2 dam lazy to write one of those lengthy replies. But if you wanna hang a medal around for neck for that, go ahead it's all yours. As for being holier than thou, I am not the one that claimed to have the solutions for Somalia nor I am the one that claimed to be rational. I am not the one that is constantly dismissing people as dreamers, emotional, irrational etc and whatnot. Your so called rationality and objective outlook on the situation in Somalia is a simply a case of regurgitating(for the past 6 months) the financial, economic and political capabilities of the Ethios and the T.F.G, and also constantly reminding us of the suicidal desperate nature of the so called resistance. I would have thought ones needs not to be "objective" or "rational" to claim that! I will leave you to come up with the "rational" and objective solution for Somalia. Do present your graphs and your scienfitic analysis of the current situation!Ooh and please be as rational as possible.

[ElPunto]

Bilaal,

 

Politically - the Asmara Group is highly opportunistic - it doesn't matter what your history is and what you have done - as long you oppose Ethiopia youre welcome into the tent.I'm not sure that's a wise strategy. Be that as it may, it's important to at least acknowledge it and if you believe that all is secondary to getting Ethiopia out - then state it baldly please. Your commentary here was very much of the dreamland quality.

 

Hassan Dahir Aweys is a huge political liability for the AG. Rightly or wrongly he is a wanted man by the US. So how can the movement retain this fellow as the brains behind the whole operation and have a hope at real power in Somalia. A politically astute move would have been to disassociate this man from the movement as soon as it was re-formed in Asmara not to entrench him further.

 

Diplomatically - the Asmara Group has had a dismal failure. They have managed to alienate the Arab states that were sympathetic to it by their sheer obstinancy. Diplomacy is a game of give and take - you cannot seriously expect diplomatic support if you don't at least provide your supporters with 'noises' in the right direction - ie. vague talk about possibly maybe talking to the TFG using back channels. As to Eritrea - it is a deeply troubled country. It's support, limited as it is, cannot be long continued particularly if the Americans and Company put the squeeze on it as they've threatened to do. You talk of diplomats flocking to Asmara - I have serious doubts on this. But even if they were - they have to come back with something, however nominal - to show for their efforts. And the Asmara Group has provided them nothing.

 

Militarily - there are huge problems for the Asmara Group. I don't believe they have control over this Al-Shabaab group whose allegiances and objectives are opaque to say the least. You say "Militarily, the ARS has achieved a great deal in a very short time." What exactly have they achieved? What is the great deal exactly? About the only thing I can fathom is making the TFG/Ethiopians look bad in the capital. Actually, there's one other achievement though that wouldn't be the term I would use and that is introducing suicide bombing to Somalia. If the TFG will live in infamy for bring Ethiopian troops to Mogadishu, then the oh so Islamic Asmara Group will live in infamy for introducing suicide bombing to Somalia. All other actions I can chalk up to 'insurgency' but this is categorically contemptible.

 

You talk of the 'strong public support' for the Asmara Group and its military operations. How did you arrive at that conclusion? What facts led you to that? In my opinion there is really no way to know that. You can't simply project your position on the Somali public at large. And if you examine the fact that the vast majority of anti-Ethiopian operations are conducted in Mogadishu - it certainly detracts from your contention. How do you square that fact with the widespread support you claim?

 

When I spoke of entrenching the Ethiopians with the insurgency tactics in Somalia - I didn't mean roll over and play dead. I meant change up your strategy. Do something like this: Stop all insurgency operations and delcare it as so, infiltrate the TFG and its bureaucracy, agitate the public against the Ethiopian occupation after a quiet period(and here you will have the Arab states on your side), start up operations again when the Ethiopians leave and take over. Do something else besides these ineffective operations that allow Ethiopia to point and say 'we're the bulwark against these Islamic nuts'.

 

Where you talked about what gives you hope the Asmara Group will have what it takes if it ever gets the chance to run Somalia - you left the shallow end of the dreamland pool and plunged fully into the depths. There is nothing here with regard to the litany of reasons for hope - character, calibre, principles, skills etc. You could argue they are better at this than the TFG but then that would be splitting hairs not this talk about the potential for ushering a new era in for Somalia.

 

If you think about it, Somalia, in particular its southern parts, was stuck in a deep morass well before the Ethiopian invasion. This reflexive and vehement 'blame Ethiopia for everything' is something that I consider foolish and self-deluding. To get out of the morass will require give and take from Somalis and the pointless absolutism of the Asmara Group is not the way out.

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

^^

Most of all losers in their works, whose course on earth has been in vain, while they count that they have done fair deeds.

Says Allah! And the verses go on to narrate the after-dialogue said losers will be having with their Maker after they are resurrected limping with a great disability----lacking the sight with which to see! It’s because you’ve deviated the right path after you’ve clearly recognized it. Allah reasons with them.

 

Likewise, the formula for success for Somalis is roundly obvious for all involved. All grievances when examined thoroughly emanate from injustices done during or before the Somali civil war. Justice is what Somalis need---force alone will not right the wrongs that were committed. We can all forget and forgive as it were but one cant sport the lavish trophies of civil war or continually brag about the gains of anarchy, and expect to be forgiven. As such, the tfg needs a fundamental reform before it can present itself as a genuine entity that can be trusted with reviving the Somali republic. The strength it has is the support it gets from the international community. But as pointed out it has been unable to capitalize on that strength. And absence any fundamental reform, it will be a wishful thing to expect it will do any better than it has already done.

 

The Asmara group too is greatly compromised by the inclusion in their leadership with known thugs and shifty characters. ICU, as it was in its original frame, is no longer! And if truth were to be told, this group as it’s presented to us has no capacity to address the core issues for which Somalis have been killing each for nearly two decades. The only value it serves is to challenge Ethiopia’s hegemony in the country, I believe. And that is not enough to revive Somalia. If Ethiopia withdraws today I can’t see them succeeding to control Somalia wholly and peacefully. It needs, the Asmara group does, to recognize that the tfg is a part of Somali political polity and come to the realization that it has to sit down with the tfg despite the circumstances the country is in! The principles [being inflexible to talk to the tfg while Ethiopia’s occupying the south] good Bilaal admires are in fact Asmara groups’ Achilles’ heels. When you don’t have the might to reverse things to your favor, talking to your enemy is a great strategy.

 

Somalis lack the leadership it takes to remedy the damages that civil war done to them. And the hard facts are that Somalis need interference from outside to arrive a lasting solution to their civil strife. My head tells me neither Eritrea nor Ethiopia can serve that function. Perhaps the Saudi Kingdom can. Lets pray for peace yaa Jamaacah!

Adeer - I haven't seen anything apart from some ineffectual sniping to poke holes in your argument here. I would just say this is ridicolously premature - "Justice is what Somalis need". How about we try for a little decency and we will get to justice in due time.

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by Xoogsade:

^ Xuubsireed nooga warran and the party you were so jubilant about the other day. Got some pics saxib? Want to see your big forehead, so, go ahead, indhaha iga cawir

 

PS:Anigaa clanish ah iska key celi, Castro is not. He is the Distinguished Somali from the North who cares about Somali's Unity and Prosperity than he cares about narrow clan bantustans.

This is the sort of shid that ruins intelligent threads like this. May it never rear its crappy head here again.

[Malika]

Xiin I agree with you, as my signature says peace will not come by force only by understanding, so for justice to be served there ought to be peace which will only come when we are thinking rationally at our situation. How will justice be served in a country still at civil war. I too don’t see those in Asmara being the ones that will bring reconciliation to Somalia even after the Ethiopians leave the country.

 

Bilaal how is this group in Asmara planning to bring a balanced peace and stability to the country , when in due time there will be demands for justice and accountability to their contribution to the chaos in Somalia?

 

 

continue guys its a great debate,laakin no blows below the belts hadhee no need to get too personal here..

[Faarax-Brawn]

Hassan Dahir Aweys is a huge political liability for the AG. Rightly or wrongly he is a wanted man by the US. So how can the movement retain this fellow as the brains behind the whole operation and have a hope at real power in Somalia. A politically astute move would have been to disassociate this man from the movement as soon as it was re-formed in Asmara not to entrench him further.

 

Just to let you know,Sh.Dahir Aweys is not a part of this new Asmar Adminstration.

 

Diplomatically - the Asmara Group has had a dismal failure. They have managed to alienate the Arab states that were sympathetic to it by their sheer obstinancy. Diplomacy is a game of give and take - you cannot seriously expect diplomatic support if you don't at least provide your supporters with 'noises' in the right direction - ie. vague talk about possibly maybe talking to the TFG using back channels.

What Arab countries? The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia,Egypt and Jordan i suppose? Arent those countries the usual American puppets? What will happen to the millions of Aid money for say Jordan & Egypt if they would have supported a "terrorist" Taliban grouping? What will be of the 60years of US-Saudi freindship be,along with its billions of annual trade revenues?

[ElPunto]

^Aweys is the svengali of the whole shindig. Why do you think he's in Asmara?

 

As to the Arab countries - they were very sympathetic and open to the Asmara Group particularly the prime mover on Arab policy in Africa, Egypt. Egypt sees Somalia as key to retaining control over Nile waters which originate in Ethiopia. But the AG blew it. Astute diplomacy is about give and take - what is the give here on the AG's part? Rien de rien. That French comment was just for you FB

[Faarax-Brawn]

Originally posted by ThePoint:

^Aweys is the svengali of the whole shindig. Why do you think he's in Asmara?

 

As to the Arab countries - they were very sympathetic and open to the Asmara Group particularly the prime mover on Arab policy in Africa, Egypt. Egypt sees Somalia as key to retaining control over Nile waters which originate in Ethiopia. But the AG blew it. Astute diplomacy is about give and take - what is the give here on the AG's part? Rien de rien. That French comment was just for you FB

Trust me,He is not a part of this group. Matter of fact,he has declined to be a part of it.

 

My point about the Arab countries not supporting the AG was just to highlighten the obvious. As it is now, Aid and America's support is more important to Egypt than the nile,NO?

[ElPunto]

^Aid is never more important than the Nile but the Nile is not a pressing issue right now. They were supportive in the beginning but something went wrong. And the AG needs to understand the art of diplomacy. Perhaps you could advise them - Playa Man.