Quotable Quotes

[-Nomadique-]

Originally posted by ThePoint:

What an interesting gem of a debate. Do continue lads.

Agreed.

[Aaliyyah]

Ngonge you have made some reasonable points, and that is the most I could expect from a fellow secessionist unlike Oday Castro who pretends someone he isn’t till he confuses himself. Oh, what a pity!

 

Wa salaamu alaikum

[-Nomadique-]

Edit: nevermind..

[BiLaaL]

Originally posted by NGONGE:Don’t get offended, get better.

I would not go as far as to say that I am offended by what you write, but I am disappointed.

 

It has become abundantly clear to me that the only way to achieve an amicable end to this discussion (from your perspective) was for me to agree with you - i.e. to declare that the ideas I put forth are nothing but 'dreams'.

 

The real dreamers of our age are those Somalis who denounce the Asmara Alliance. One can’t claim to be a realist and at the same be so unrealistic about the only group in a position to liberate our country. Unless, of course, the occupation doesn't feature prominently on your list of considerations. Some Alliance members may not resemble the genesis of greatness but so what? Got any other alternatives? Ever given the issue of alternatives much thought?

 

The so-called ‘dreamers’ (realists, actually) like myself, on the other hand, are simply contending that the Alliance (whatever its short comings) is the best outfit we have for now. Any reasonable person would tell you that the former position, that of denouncing the Alliance, is nothing short of capitulation; while the latter is one of pragmatism. The former is irresponsible and lacking in duty, while the latter is responsible and acknowledges that now is not the best time to demand perfection(especially in the midst of an ongoing liberation struggle).

 

And so with respect to the Alliance; these are our basic positions. I’m not so much incensed but rather bewildered about how such a simple proposition (we currently don't have an alternative to the Alliance, so let’s stick with it) can be turned on its head and made to appear the opposite of what it actually is.

 

**The Point - I've touched on sections of the two points you've listed. I'll endeavour to address them more fully in due course. Likewise, brother Khalaf.

 

PS - The Alliance for the Re-Liberation of Somalia (ARS) is incredibly important to the liberation struggle and is a major player in the current political landscape (whether one acknowledges or not). I'm suprised that more people aren't following its fortunes. Although the group don't seem to be as media friendly or as visible as they once were, i can assure you that their efforts have not waned. Since NG and I have more or less arrived at an unpassable juncture, i would love to hear what other people think of the Alliance - critical or otherwise.

[Fabregas]

This brings me back to your question. What should Somali people do? I hope by now you know what the answer is.

 

 

Yes I already know that answer. The Ethiopians and T.F.G are in the best position to militarily, politically and economically govern Somalia. Anyone that tries to resist them is virtually commiting suicide as they are ill equiped. Thus the Somali people should quote-unqoute " work through the T.F.G". Let us end our story there for now !

[NGONGE]

^^^ Sometimes I really despair.

That was not the answer I was alluding to. Pupils, could anyone else help this brother out please?

 

BiLaaL,

 

I must have rubbed you the wrong way. Never mind. However, since both ThePoint and Khalaf are repeating my initial questions and you've promised to reply to them I shall now take a step back and give you space to express yourself to more sympathetic listeners.

 

Castro,

 

It is not the meddling that I regard as an unproven theory. I’d be mad to do so. It’s the widely peddled theories as to the reasons for this involvement and how they’re presented as truth that I question. I can argue against your position on this without regarding it as a false position to have. But what all my senses compel me to refuse is that these opinions are also truths! It's the presenting of such opinions as facts that I consider to be a duplicity.

[ElPunto]

Yes Sir, Professor Ngonge, Sir!

 

FTS - the point Ngonge has been trying to make is this:

 

Given that the TFG/Asmara Alliance have in their ranks criminals/shady characters, both have innocent blood on their hands, both display little statemanship and ability to comprise, have precious few technocrats and other skilled individuals to direct the workings of a government - Why the emphatic support for the AA? Shouldn't it be more or less a wash given the above realities? What is the compelling reason or reasons?

 

If your answer is the occupation, the occupation - then your argument has glaring holes. The calls and actions of the AA and related groups have led and only lead to the entrenchment and the prolonging of the occupation. Does anybody seriously believe that without the security issue(or excuse?) that the Ethiopians can remain long in Somalia? Ethiopia's occupation is not a land grab like in Palestine but is about, ostensibly, its security. Yet those whose self-proclaimed banner states that they will re-liberate Somalia only further enable Ethiopia's occupation. It seems to me a fundamental contradiction and a rather odd basis for support.

[Fabregas]

quote:Yet those whose self-proclaimed banner states that they will re-liberate Somalia only further enable Ethiopia's occupation.

 

That has been the same argument used by all occupiers since the start of history..In any case some of those that declared war in on Ethiopia wanted to entice her into a prolonged occupation and guerilla war in Somalia....some of those were speaking of a long war inside Somalia within the first days of the week....I also suspect that Meles Zenawi must have discussed the prospect of a long conflict inside Muqdisho....I mean do you seriously believe that he intended to leave southern Somalia within a few weeks? Even Mr Geedi let slip that they could stay for months or perhaps even longer until " the job done".

[ElPunto]

^No you're simply wrong. Where occupations are about ensuring a 'friendly' regime there is no such argument. Where the occupation is about owning, settling and exploiting land such as in Tibet or the Palestinian territories or indeed in Africa during colonialism - your argument holds. At any rate - is that really a compelling reason for you - when all of us know that sooner or later Ethiopia will have to leave? At any rate can you understand my arguments above?

[Fabregas]

I understand your argument fully. But I have to to disagree with it. Given the fact the Ethiopia already owns and stole a large portion of Somali territory, namely the ocaden province. Whereby Oromos have been implanted into Somali territory and the local population has been subjected to gross human rights violations. Secondly the ideological leaders behind the I.C.U have been fighting the Ethiopians in the occupied region of Ocaden,whereby some of their leaders have been killed and other returned to Southern Somalia.

 

Thus one has to look at the situation in Somalia not as a simple "regime change". Perhaps Ethiopia does require for Somalia to have a functional central government. Maybe Ethiopia does want Somali clans in Southern Somalia toreconcile, although this is contradicted by the support given to various warlords over the last decade or so.

 

 

However, there are enormous ideological, political and religous issues at stake in Somalia. Ethiopia wants to see a certain Somalia, which doesnt have to be chaotic or warprone. This could well have a central government. This type of Somalia has to be federal, clan organized and must also give away certain concessions to the Ethiopian regime and other agents in the Big Brother scheme of things.

 

Firstly any one that rules any part of Somalia has to be pro Ethiopian regime. Just take a look at the people that run the various entities in Somalia, namely Puntland, Somaliland, T.F.G and various other warlord rulers. All of these have one thing in common: they are all pro Ethiopian regimes. If you think about this, it is something of a remarkeable achievment.How this came about is unimportant and its beyond the scope of a public forum. Somaliland was created and run by S.N.M leaders (funded and armed by Ethiopia);Puntland was run by S.S.D.F leaders(again funded from Ethiopia); and Southern Somalia was controlled by various Warlords(again funded and armed by Ethiopia). In other words the Ethiopian regime played a key role in the ousting of the Somali government and the descent into clan based fiefdoms and warlord run territories. Perhaps this was accelerated by good old Somali clanism. Ethiopia with the help of other agents have done their very best to discourage Somalia from adopting any Islamic or Somali nationalistic inspired governments. I already gave the example of encouraging various clan backed movements to overthrow the Somali state and supporting them control Somalia thereafter. Of course Siyad Bare effectively signed of Somali claims of the Ocaden region, however this was after internal conflicts which applied to pressure to the Somali society.But, nevertheless Ethiopian regime played a key role in overthrow of the Somali government.

 

 

Furthermore, the Ethiopian regime is said to have interferred in every Somali attempt to form a government. This is clearly evident with the close relationship with the T.F.G, to the extent that anti Ethiopian influenced politicians such as Galayd have been hounded out of their jobs. Today we even have Ethiopian troops disrupting Somali cabinet meetings and so called Somali leaders jet off to Adiss at the click of a finger. Moreover, the Ethiopian regime has decreed war on any use of an Islamic(in the real sense of the word) based system of governance inside Somalia. Again this evident from the war against Alitixaad and current war against the Islamic Courts Union. Thus the Ethiopian regime has historically and till this day fought against those that want an Islamic based system, those that advocate Pan Somaliasm(concede occupied Somali territories) and those that reject her interference inside Somalia.

 

 

To sump up my your rant, I must say I heavily disagree with your claim that Ethiopia is simply after a regime change in Somalia. Rather this a prolonged conflict with ideological, political and economic dimensions, whereby Ethiopia(with the help of other agents) seeks to create a Somali with the following critrea:

 

1. A Somali government and peoples that withdraw any claims or sympathy with regards to occupied region of the Ocaden.This includes handing over any suspects from this region to Ethiopia without any judicial process.

 

2. A Somalia that is run according to clan fiefdoms and clan formula(some call this federalism).

 

3. A Somalia that doesnt govern itself by the laws of the Shariah(which has many supporters). This includes the killing, torture and detention of those Ulema that spoke out against the practices of Ethiopia against Somali citizens.

 

4. Any one that displays of an IOTA of concern regarding Ethiopian ventures in Somalia is hound out of the politcal process. Again this evident by the expulsion of Somali politicians from the political arena for simply uttering concerns about Ethiopia's ventures in Somalia.

 

Now tell me all the above arent happening in Somalia? Tell me that the entities known as Somaliland, Puntland, Ocaden province and the T.F.G arent putting those issues to execution? Tell me all these organizations dont run according to clan based formulas?Tell me that Somali citizens handed over to the Ethiopian regime for free or for ammunition? Tell me that the people of the Deen(in the real sense of word) aren't being sold or bounty hunted by warlords both in today and past 16 years?

 

 

Of course one could say that this is the essentially the fault of the Somali people. Furthermore it can be argued that Somali clanism and Qabilism are the root causes of the conflict in Somalia. Yes Somalis fought each other and they didnt create a government for sixteen years. Perhaps Somalis are backwards and ignorant people as some here have claimed. Am not denying a large amount of Somalis are more loyal to their clan more-so than their religion or state. This are facts and arguments which have strong evidence to back them. I am not saying that the I.C.U are perfect nor I am saying the boys in Asmara are going to bring honey milk to Somalia. However,I will never support the venture of Ethiopia into the arena of Somalia, which has spread into every sphere of Somali society, be it religous, political or economic. There are some concessions which can't be made, even if youre the poorest most backward nation on earth and the T.F.G/ Ethiopia have a chance of forming you a government.

 

 

Still though, I consider my self a realist and not a dreamer as our thoughtful expert Mr Ngonge has portrayed me as. I have always maintained that the Asmara Group and T.F.G should meet to pathe the way for the withdrawl of foreign troops(Ethiopia) and the replacement with international(muslim, africa or Arab). You can find those threads on this very forum. I said early one that the presence of Ethio troops in Muqdisho would lead to a prolonged conflict whereby the Ethiopians and T.F.G take heavy casualties. However my views were dismissed and I was told that those "rag tag" terrorists had no chance against the mighty Ethiopians and Ugandans, and they would apparently destroy everything in their way whilst leaving Somalia in a few weeks/months. This was suppose to be a new era of democracy, government and the Ethiopians were suppose to bring Somalia to its feet once again. Tell me now who are the dreamers? The Ethiopian adventure will be fought, denounced and condemned at every opportunity. It matters not whether the Somali people are armed with Tanks,Technicals; nor does it matter if they are armed with simple rifles or even rocks to throw at tanks. This doesn't need scientific or economic formula to understand! As one of our nomads(SOS) on SOL explained it:

 

 

quote:Of course the option of unconditional surrender was on table as demanded by Ethiopia in their last face-to-face meeting, which included full denunciation of all our irredentist historical rights to occupied territories, distancing from the central religious ambition to self-determination per rule by the Qur'an and Sunnah, full disarmament and acceptance of Ethiopia troops occupying Somalia. That was the only other alternative choice available, and I really mean it when I say death is a more honourable rational choice. As Shakespeare ones wrote:

 

If we are mark'd to die, we are enow

To do our country loss; and if to live,

The fewer men, the greater share of honour.

God's will! I pray thee, wish not one man more.

[ElPunto]

^Adeer - why did you go Oodweyne on me? I'll have to tackle this some other time. Better yet - Professor Ngonge - since you roped me into this - how about you step up now?

[xiinfaniin]

^^I thought you prayed for response!

[ElPunto]

^Huh?

 

Good night.

[xiinfaniin]

^^Good night aa?

 

I thought you was in Canada, yaa ThePoint!

 

Anyway, will see what you come back with tommorow...

 

ps Good night .

[Castro]

Since NG and I have more or less arrived at an unpassable juncture, i would love to hear what other people think of the Alliance - critical or otherwise.

I choose the Asmara group over the TFG 10 times out of 10. And this while taking into consideration the Asmara group's poor choices in allowing turncoat, buffoon and ex-CIA agents like ina Caydiid to be associated with them.

 

They're not perfect but they're head and shoulders above the TFG and for six months in 2006, they proved it.