Understanding `Kufr`

[bint hamid]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

... A bigger theological question would be why test at all. Perhaps it’s to see who is wise with his choices---a test after all is to gouge one’s ability to select few options from many.

salaams

Allahu Aalim im not an expert or anything but Allah tests the mu'mineen so that we can grow stronger in the deen and strengthen our eeman. when things are easy you can take them for granted and be ungrateful but when you have to work and strive and persevere to achieve it then you are thankful and know its value

 

ameen

[Raamsade]

Originally posted by Nur:

 

Reminding you for the last time, I wrote that Allah

does not need His creatures, and that

His creatures need Him

. But you chose to understand that this statement means that

Allah needs to be worshiped

, how absurd a comprehension saaxib?

It's not about understanding but reasoning. You say His creatures need him, let me ask you: what happens to those who don't worship God? Do they not, according to Islam at least, get punished for eternity? What choice, if Islam is true, do His creatures have but to worship him? It's plainly clear to any sensible and honest person that God, as described in Islam, not only needs worship (and slavish submission) from his creation but demands it at the pain of hellfire for eternity.

 

 

Originally posted by Nur:

If you believe that you have created yourself and that there is no purpose in life, and that the universe began as a freak accident, then, why does it matter to you what God is and what not?

Created myself? I'm sorry but how does that work? How can I create myself if I don't even exist?

 

Second, life in general doesn't a purpose but my life does. It is a purpose I have created.

 

Third, the universe didn't begin as a "freak" but if it did, so what? You have no trouble in believing in a Uncreated God, why do you find difficult to accept uncreated (or freakishly created) Universe?

 

And I like to provide some semblance of reason amidst all the superstition and magical thinking being bandied about.

 

 

Originally posted by Nur:

Frankly, if I was in your shoes, I wouldn't have bothered that kind of question before I resolve the more basic issue of the possibility of existence of a God who created you and the Universe which you have dodged in our last discussion.

Burden of proof lies with the claimant, in other words those who -- like you -- claim there is a God and afterlife to prove it. I don't have to resolve anything since there is no good reason to do so in the first place.

 

And God didn't create me (my parents did) or the Universe. But now we can see more clearly why you're so anti-science and reason because you got one helluva theological axe-to-grind.

 

What discussion did I dodge?

[Raamsade]

Originally posted by Abu-Salman:

only after establishing for yourself the necessary existence of a creator, could we therefore come to terms with his attributes and qualities.

One doesn't have to believe in Nazism or Communism for one to point out the glaring contradictions in either ideology. Similarly, one doesn't have to believe in God or religion in general to comment on contradictions contained within.

 

 

Originally posted by Abu-Salman:

It happens that I currently possess Arabic literature specifically explicating the parts of the Qur'aan that may seems ambiguous or contradictory for those of us not yet proficient and would happily part with it along other surplus, should you PM some details in all confidentiality...

I have no problem understanding the Quran but thanks for the offer anyways.

[Raamsade]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

Raamka, requiring gratitude does not necessarily suggest that God is in need of one’s appreciation.

So why does God demand worship or threaten hell?

 

 

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

That requirement is simply a mere test case. From Islamic theology life in its entirety is test given for you. A bigger theological question would be why test at all. Perhaps it’s to see who is wise with his choices---a test after all is to gouge one’s ability to select few options from many.

Well, this is yet another contradiction in Islam (and I think Christianity and Judiasm as well). If Islam is true there can be no meaningful test in life or free will. A perfect and omniscient God knows before hand whether you'll ultimately end up in hell or not before he even creates you. The test in life is similar to a teacher who assigns grades before a test but still asks his students to write the test. It doesn't matter what grades you get on the test, your teacher already decided your grades.

[Nur]

Raamsade

 

You write:

 

 

what happens to those who don't worship God?

 

First let us define Worship as per Merriam-Webster:

 

Etymology: Middle English worshipe worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, from Old English weorthscipe worthiness, respect, from weorth worthy, worth + -scipe -ship

 

 

Now let us ask, why Worship?

 

Answer, because, Allah is Sovereign, and you are dependent on Him, so you need to pay respect, due to His worthiness to you as a source of sustenance, and well being in this life and next.

 

In the secular sense, if you are either a plaintiff or a defendant in a court of law you are obliged to pay respect to the bench,as it represents the law, which emanated from the constitution which in turn is articles of incorporation of the Sovereign State. Any disrespect to the bench is construed as a contempt to the Sovereignty of the State which is the opposite of due respect or in our religious case, reverence.

 

You write:

 

Created myself? I'm sorry but how does that work? How can I create myself if I don't even exist?

 

You see Raamsade, you either exist or you dont.

 

If you don't exist, sorry, I meant to discuss with a human, not a computer.

 

If You exist, you have either created yourself or you are created.

 

Since you dont believe in a god that created you, it follows that you believe that you have created yourself.

 

Your forte being in circualr logic, you ask me: How can I create myself if I dont exist?

 

Please make up you mind.

 

 

You write:

 

 

Second, life in general doesn't have a purpose but my life does. It is a purpose I have created.

 

 

What you are saying is:

 

1. Life doesn't have a purpose.

2. I am a living thing and part of life.

3. I have a purpose

4. I create my purpose

 

Do you see how confused this is?

 

Please tell me what is the purpose that you have created for yourself?

 

 

You write:

 

Third, the universe didn't begin as a "freak" but if it did, so what? You have no trouble in believing in a Uncreated God, why do you find difficult to accept uncreated (or freakishly created) Universe?

 

 

OK, you are saying that Universe did not begin as a freak accident, which implies a creator.

 

You are saying that the Universe may have started itself in a freak accident, this logic is flawed, saaxib:

 

1. Are you and the purpose you said that you created the same?

 

If Yes, then its equally possible that the purpose can also create you, in this case, the purpsoe represents " Intelligence"

 

If you say, NO, then, God and the Universe can not be on this playing field, they are different, which makes it imperative that the decuctive and inductive logic we use for this universe and its creation can not hold water for GOD.

 

You write:

 

Burden of proof lies with the claimant, in other words those who -- like you -- claim there is a God and afterlife to prove it. I don't have to resolve anything since there is no good reason to do so in the first place.

 

True, but First, if in a court I can not prove my case it doesn't mean I don't have a case.

 

Second, let us assume that you lived during Moses' time, and you have witnessed the Exodus and the miracles he performed to free the oppressed Israelite from the cruel Pharaoh, or you have witnessed Jesus Christ quickening the dead, healing the leper etc, would you have accepted these as proof of God's existence?

 

 

You write:

 

And God didn't create me (my parents did) or the Universe.

 

Which one saaxib, don't be wishy washy. To Create means to bring something that didn't exist to being. If that is the case, then, whoever created you needs to have some know-how, since you are a very complicated organism and your creation requires sophisticated processes. Creation therefore requires effort and knowledge which your parents did not have as they were also forced by biological desires of sex to get it over with, which leaves the Universe as the only other viable choice that may have created you according to you.

 

Is the Universe Intelligent?

 

If Yes, then, is it eternal? if yes, then, you must believe in God.

 

If NO, then, you are contradicting yourself, since something that is not intelligent can not create a sophisticated organism like you.

 

 

Nur

[Raamsade]

Originally posted by Nur:

Raamsade

 

You write:

 

 

what happens to those who don't worship God?

 

First let us define Worship as per Merriam-Webster:

Why? What could concievably be gained from defining the word worship. We all got a rough idea of what worship means.

 

It's a simple question with a simple (but uncomfortable) answer. There is no need for obfuscation and muddying the water.

 

 

Originally posted by Nur:

Now let us ask, why Worship?

Because God said so in the Quran. Any answer you proffer is your your commentary and reasoning, not God's. God doesn't need a reason for demanding worship; He's above petty human reasoning, He plays by his own rules. You make your God sound awfully like a human creation with human feelings and thought process.

 

 

Originally posted by Nur:

Answer, because, Allah is Sovereign, and you are dependent on Him, so you need to pay respect, due to His worthiness to you as a source of sustenance, and well being in this life and next.

Isn't that exactly what I've been saying all along except from different perspective? You're arguing from the perspective of the worshiper and ignoring the perspective of God. There are two sides to this act of worship: Creator and Creation. God needs a worship from his creation otherwise He wouldn't have promised hellfire for those who refuse to worship him.

 

But as I have said earlier this is tepid rationalization for the seeming contradiction between a Perfect Creator and the demands for worship. Moreover, the only reason Muslims, for instance, worship Allah and Hindus worship their multitude of Gods while Buddhists are essentially atheists is because of what the respective religions command. So your argument that "Allah is Sovereign, and you are dependent on Him, so you need to pay respect" falls flat on its face. It implies that EVERYONE is worshiping God because if we're all dependent on Him then it must be self-evident and we all must respect and pay homage to Him. But we know that aint true.

 

 

Originally posted by Nur:

You see Raamsade, you either exist or you dont.

Correct.

 

Originally posted by Nur:

If you don't exist, sorry, I meant to discuss with a human, not a computer.

Sorry, this is too garbled to make sense.

 

 

Originally posted by Nur:

If You exist, you have either created yourself or you are created.

This is a false dichotomy and absurd one at it. Why must there be only two false and absurd options? Why can't I be created by a third options: i.e. my parents?

 

I hope your rhetorical abilities go beyond the number two.

 

 

Originally posted by Nur:

Since you dont believe in a god that created you, it follows that you believe that you have created yourself.

Wrong! Your second premise was garbled (and probably false) and your third premise was demonstrably false, thus there is no support for your conclusion (that I believe I created myself). Your poorly constructed syllogism notwithstanding, do you have any evidence humans were created by God?

 

 

Originally posted by Nur:

What you are saying is:

 

1. Life doesn't have a purpose.

2. I am a living thing and part of life.

3. I have a purpose

4. I create my purpose

 

Do you see how confused this is?

No, I see how convincingly truthful I am. But care to tell me what you disagree with what I've written. I can understand that, as a religious person, you find the concept of people creating their own "purpose in life" difficult to fathom. As a religious person you believe God has given you a "purpose in life" which is a preparation for the afterlife. I need you to go beyond the knee-jerk shock and give reasoned counter arguments.

 

 

Originally posted by Nur:

Please tell me what is the purpose that you have created for yourself?

My purpose in life is to embetter myself, loved ones and the rest of humanity. What is your purpose in life?

 

 

Originally posted by Nur:

OK, you are saying that Universe did not begin as a freak accident, which implies a creator.

No, it doesn't not imply a Creator at all. You know, you have a habit of making bold assertion without backing them up. Nothing you've said in this thread or other threads I've read could remotely justify your assertion above. These leaps of logic are characteristic of the faithful.

 

 

Originally posted by Nur:

If you say, NO, then, God and the Universe can not be on this playing field, they are different, which makes it imperative that the decuctive and inductive logic we use for this universe and its creation can not hold water for GOD.

This is special pleading (it is a logical fallacy, Special Pleading Fallacy). Why must the Universe have a creator and not God? We need reasoned justification for the exempting God from having a creator besides religious dogma. Do you have any?

 

And you're also contradicting yourself. Earlier you were arguing using "deductive and inductive logic" to rationalize why a perfect God would demand a worship.

 

 

 

Originally posted by Nur:

True, but First, if in a court I can not prove my case it doesn't mean I don't have a case.

You don't have a case if you're operating under Common Law. It's different under Civil Law.

 

 

Originally posted by Nur:

Second, let us assume that you lived during Moses' time, and you have witnessed the Exodus and the miracles he performed to free the oppressed Israelite from the cruel Pharaoh, or you have witnessed Jesus Christ quickening the dead, healing the leper etc, would you have accepted these as proof of God's existence?

Yes, I would accept those as legit miracles and evidence for the existence of God. Too bad those miracles never happened and are alleged to have happened when most people were illiterate, in thrall of superstition and magical thinking.

 

But Moses almost certainly never existed. I say "almost" because there is one piece of historical evidence that might suggest someone named Moses might have existed and that comes from the his name which is NOT jewish but Egyptian as in like the pharaoh Thutmoses. There is no historical evidence for any of the stories and miracles associated with Moses, the Exodus or other such nonsense.

 

 

Originally posted by Nur:

Is the Universe Intelligent?

No but it is intelligible. Unlike God.

[Nur]

Raamsade

 

 

Here is a summary of your logic as I understand:

 

1. You ask what happens to those who don't worship, yet, a definition of what constitutes WORSHIP is not needed, since we all have a rough idea of what it means ( Good enough for government work) because a proper definition as per a common dictionary is muddying the water, making the argument less clear, thus, a rough idea of the concept is better than a well defined meaning in a discussion.

 

2. An answer of "why Worship"?, can come either from me or from God. When I give an answer to this question, you don't accept, because you need God's answer, yet, for you, God does not Exist, so, you require an answer from someone you believe He does not exist.

 

3. God does not exist, because, if he did, he will not need to be worshiped, he needs to be worshiped, because he punishes those who do not worship Him, hence He does not exist. Furthermore, neither has God created you, because someone who has a need can not create you, with the exception of your parents who have a need and you believe that they have created you, with the occasional help of the Universe which is not intelligent, but intelligible ( meaning: : capable of being understood or comprehended, although it continues to baffle scientists who, the more they try to understand, the more baffled they feel about it's complexity ) , which boils down to two possibilities: that you are either created by your parents who are intelligent, or the Universe which is comprehensible but NOT in itself intelligent, since an intelligent Universe that creates complex beings like yourself, indirectly implies a God.

 

4. If you have lived during the Biblical times, and have seen the miracles of Moses and Jesus, you would have believed in God, but, all of the scriptures are fiction, nothing in them is true, its all human concocted stories and not true hence, there is No God.

 

Please reconfirm these inferences before I can respond to your logic.

 

 

Nur

[Khayr]

It's not about understanding but reasoning.

That is the perspective of the modernists like Descartes.

 

The Religious perspective is UNDERSTANDING first.

To Understand, you must TASTE and EXPERIENCE.

 

Sophistery only teaches us how to play with words.

 

Raam, your questions have been answered numerously on SOL.

 

The Great Prayer Experiment- Raamsade, your issues have been dealt with before

[Positive]

The King

 

Once upon a time there was king. He ruled his kingdom wisely and in justice and all his subjects enjoyed abundance in every field of their life. Happiness prevailed in his kingdom and ills were unknown.

 

One day the king noticed that his six sons and six daughters and many of his subjects were just playing and enjoying themselves; they were not learning to help one other; specially his 12 children unaware of their responsibility that one day they will rule a kingdom acted selfishly by rejoicing in a delightful life with comfort and affluence and giving nothing back.

 

The king felt that he had to teach his children about the consequences of these self-serving acts. He also felt that his children and subjects needed to appreciate the gifts that life showered on them. The king as the sovereign ruler had also felt that laws which he wishes to govern his subjects had to be made known to them and be obeyed without reservation.

 

At a fringe of his kingdom a school was prepared and after stern trainers were selected the king decreed for his 12 children and many of his subjects to go in exile. In their destination they had to sleep with the swine,the hyena and lion; they had to experience hitherto unknown conditions in their life like hatred, anger and vanity; scarcity, hunger and many sorts of illnesses; conversely they had to experience many of the good things that life could offer both in fame and in fortune to them. The aim of the king was to provide the children with a place where they could experience both the good and the bad and in the process could grow both in wisdom and in their ability to make the right judgment about the experiences of life.

 

After a veil was drawn into their memories his children were sent to their prepared school and since then they have been living there wondering what in Gods name this is all about.

 

The King loved his children so dearly and looked after them. Even in their darkest moments he took care of them in ways the children could not understand.

 

Among other things in exile his children had to learn to give love unconditionally without fear or compulsion from outside power or entity. In that way they would contribute to serve one another, without precondition, instead of serving the Self. They had also to follow and respect whatever the king ordained in their school of learning: laws, conditions of life, circumastances etc. In a kingdom with scarcity there were always limited choices to make. Why ? Because the king made it so. Law ? yes! Why ? The king ordained them and there is no escape from it!

 

On the other hand the king prepared the way of return for his children. When they finish their lower schooling they will meet with their father and king again individually; and at that meeting will realize their birth rights. This will become a joyous moment for the children because the veil on their memories will also be lifted and they will remember who they are.

 

End

 

It is ok that you could not agree on the subject matter. Everyone of you is experessing his/her level of understanding. That is natural and has to be respected. It is useful to discuss because regardless of our intellectual differences still everyone of us is both teacher and student to the others. So carry on please. I was just passing by!

 

I hope also the above metaphor will not confuse you. From the bright side it may inspire some of you to think new thoughts.

 

Ramadan Kariim.

 

The Awakener2

[Johnny B]

Though there seem to be huge difference in the ability to reason logically, among the the Brothers, nevertheless,very interesting exchanges indeed.

 

So far,the only problem seems to be that our Sheikh doesn't seem to understand the simple question of, why God ( allah if you must ) who is omniscient,omnipoten t and morally just, demands to be worshipped by his creation, unless, being worshipped,without which he punishes his creation, is something of great importance to him(to God that is), hence, for a reason or another god is in need of it .

 

That those who do not worship the Muslim God ( Allah, if you must ) will be punished makes the act of worshipping him something Humanity owes him, but can or are able to (at will) deny him, which consequently makes the supposedly omniscient,omnipoten t and morally just God, less omniscient,less omnipotent and a needy, A demanding but wronged Deity with a justified wrath.

A colossal contradiction in the characteristics of what is referred to as God (an Allah if you must ).

 

Disregarding what our Theist brothers think about Atheism and Atheists, one thing is crystal clear, We Agnostics /Atheists know more about Religiosity and Theism than our Brothers know about Agnosticism/Atheism.

[Raamsade]

Originally posted by Nur:

1. You ask what happens to those who don't worship, yet, a definition of what constitutes WORSHIP is not needed, since we all have a rough idea of what it means

( Good enough for government work)

because a proper definition as per a common dictionary is muddying the water, making the argument less clear, thus, a rough idea of the concept is better than a well defined meaning in a discussion.

I have substantial experience debating religious folks, especially Muslims, and one thing I've learned is that whenever the going of the debate gets tough, expect red herrings and obfuscations. They're deflection strategies designed to disguise the fact they're losing the debate.

 

Twice I asked you to answer the question: why does God promise hellfire for those who refuse to worship him? Instead of replying to my question you launched a superfluous exercise in defining the word worship. You could have answered my question, instead you chose otherwise. It smacks of dishonesty and I got annoyed. I debate honestly and expect the same from others.

 

Now, could you answer the question asked of you (see above paragraph) thrice thusfar?

 

 

Originally posted by Nur:

2. An answer of "why Worship"?, can come either from me or from God. When I give an answer to this question, you don't accept, because you need God's answer, yet, for you, God does not Exist, so, you require an answer from someone you believe He does not exist.

Two things. First, I want the honest answer; not the watered down version for modern consumption. You know, the version that chimes with modern sensibilities and logic. It's pretty clear that worshiping of Allah is central to Islam and the whole existence of humans on earth is to submit to Allah's will and commandments. Those who obey and worship Allah are promised heaven in the hereafter and those who refuse will go to hell. If you were honest and not bound by religious dogma, you would admit that Allah is indeed needy (why else would he punish those who refuse to obey him?). Rather, we witness the painful mental contortionism from you which goes like: humans worship God to show respect but God will send them to hell if they don't show enough respect. Like I said earlier, it is the price that religious dogma exacts on the faithful. Dogma forces people to accept absurd and contradictory positions.

 

But the more overarching point (philosophical) I was trying to make was that there can be no "reason" for God to command or prohibit anything. If God says don't eat pork, then that is it. There can't be any "reason" for the prohibition because God doesn't use reasoning to make decision. That's what humans do. When you ask for the reason God prohibited or commanded X, Y or Z, you're anthropomorphizing God. This is playing right into the hands of those who say humans invented Gods in their own image.

 

Secondly, I don't agree with any of the core Islamic precepts nor do I believe in Allah. But you do! And I'm debating you. It is perfectly legitimate for me to expose weaknesses in your argument even if that means I cite Allah here and there.

 

 

 

Originally posted by Nur:

3. God does not exist, because, if he did, he will not need to be worshiped, he needs to be worshiped, because he punishes those who do not worship Him, hence He does not exist.

Actually, no. God doesn't appear to exist because there is no good evidence or reason in support of His existence. The contradiction between His attributes and demands is only the icing on the cake. When something is internally self-refuting and contradictory, it is usually a good sign it is false.

 

Furthermore, the contradiction between a needy and a perfect God is just but one of several. Another obvious contradiction would be Omniscient (all knowing) and Omnipotent (all powerful) God. These are contradictory attributes. And yet another would be a Just and Merciful God. I chose the contradiction between apparently needy and perfect God for its pertinence to this thread.

 

There are so many contradictory attributes of God (the God of Islam, Christianity and Judaism) that one can, on that fact alone, reject God. But that in my view is insufficient; I look for evidence as well. And I find none for God's existence.

 

 

Originally posted by Nur:

which boils down to two possibilities: that you are either created by your parents who are intelligent, or the Universe which is comprehensible but NOT in itself intelligent, since an intelligent Universe that creates complex beings like yourself, indirectly implies a God.

I'm a product of my parents and as humans we're product of evolution. The earth, universe and all else that exist are governed by invariant natural laws. There is no evidence for a God behind my "creation" or the workings of our world. Your obsession with a creator bespeaks of your inability or unwillingness to deal with reality. You remind of the saying: "God is imaginary friend for grownups."

 

We're all alone in this world and it's all we got; lets make the best of it.

 

 

 

Originally posted by Nur:

4. If you have lived during the Biblical times, and have seen the miracles of Moses and Jesus, you would have believed in God,

Yes. And you forgot the miracles of Mohammed like splitting the moon.

 

But why Biblical times only? Why can't God send some miracles to us today so he can dispel our doubts and open our eyes? Instead we got the Amazing Shrinking God. 2000 years ago God was busy displaying his powers with all sorts of miracles like burning bushes, parting of the seas, walking on water and splitting the moon during Mohammed's time. Today, we got no comparable miracles. That alone should give you some thoughts.

 

 

Originally posted by Nur:

but, all of the scriptures are fiction, nothing in them is true, its all human concocted stories and not true hence, there is No God.

Not everything in scriptures are untrue but stuff about afterlife, hell and heaven, God and dogmas are untrue.