Is it really for islam :

[Haatu]

Nur, preaching to the people about the evils of grave worshipping soo kama horeyso direct action being taken?

[Nur]

Haatu

 

Akhi, ma aan ku fahmin, maxaad ula jeeddaa "Direct Action"

 

 

Nur

[Naxar Nugaaleed]

Nur, brother, this context business is something you scholars of Islam (am assuming here) abuse a little to much, matter of fact to an annoying degree. If I tell you the sky is blue, it needs no context, its either true or false. and because you believe what God says is true, if he says the sky is blue, it must be so. Same thing with this statement, it says: There is NO compulsion in religion, period. It doesn't say there is no compulsion in religion only when the prophet is in control of Madina or when we say religion we mean only these religions. I am no scholar of Islam or of any religion for that matter, but to me, using "context" to try to give a different meaning to a simple statement in the quran looks to me like a usurpation of Gods will.

 

What makes Islam different from all other beliefs system is it's simplicity. you don't need a vatican with an army of clergy to interpret Gods will. You don't need to spend a lifetime atop a mountain to understand it either. There is no one between you and God, no father to forgive your sins behind a curtain at the end of the week and no pope to claim he is Gods representative on earth. Islam stresses the fact that it is a simple religion and that we should do everything in moderation. all you need do is a,b and c and your good to go. despite this, muslim scholars have taken upon themselves to interpret for us Gods well even in a simple statement of "there is NO ...". There is no if or buts in that sentence, nothing about the source of state law or who controlled where. Another annoying thing, when you say muslims are instructed to behave nice when they are the minority but nazis when they are in control, that just stinks of divine hypocrisy, something humans would suggest you do rather then a perfect and just God...

 

As for the France thing, if I lived in an Island and took care of it well and you lived in another that you have ran to the ground and then because i am a good person, I welcomed you to mine in your hour of need, Do I not have a right to ask of you simple respect for my way of life? after, you chose to come here, forget my generosity in welcoming you into my home and what that entails, you chose to come here. This is the same situation, has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with the sustainability of french culture in of all places, France! When in Rome do as the Roman do, not the afghanis, lol. A Burqa is an affront to French culture and rightfully so, as much as a G-string clad woman would be to yours. As for secularism's guarantee of freedom of religion, a burqa is not a religious requirement is it? on top of that its a public safety hazard. A sign of oppression. The French have many reason to ban this thing, I don't know what that has to do with French fear of Muslims one day forcing sharia on them, which is also a legitimate fear if you ask me but that is another topic...

 

Let there be NO compulsion in religion, live and let live...

[Nur]

Naxar bro.

 

Here is a summary of what I understood from your post:

 

1. CONTEXT thing is baloney, the word NO compulsion in religion ( NIXLAH/ DEEN) is ABSOLUTE, we don't need even to differentiate whether the word Religion is properly translated from NIXLAH, or DEEN.

 

The statement holds true everywhere anytime. The portion of the verse NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION.... is not connected to other verses in Quraan whatsoever nor hadeeths, or particular historical events that it addresses. it is a STAND ALONE STATEMENT! NOT EVEN CONNECTED TO THE REST OF THE VERSE!

 

2. Islam is SIMPLE.

 

3. France is justifies in banning the Muslim Hijab, they are protecting their way of freedom, and the Hijaab is symbol of women's oppression, and France wants all women to be free to wear as less as possible because their bodies is their business, but covering up with the Burqaa is a threat to the French lifestyle ( DEEN) and Paris Fashion Designers, and the French are further justified because its their country and Muslims are guests even if they are french by origin, BUT the Shabaab in Somalia can not Enforce Islam in their Country to the French, Americans or Somalis, because there is NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION .

 

 

Confirm the above rational or correct me, if I misunderstood you brother, so I can respond in kind to your statements one by one inshAllah.

 

 

Nur

[Warmoog]

There is no way to gauge anyone's intentions to find out whether they are truly doing something for the sake of Islam, but we can at least determine whether their actions are in accordance with Islam or not. Islam generally does not allow for graves to be disturbed, but there are circumstances under which legitimate exceptions are made in accordance with the Shari'ah. There are circumstances under which it becomes permissible or even obligatory to excavate a grave or demolish a mosque, for instance. So when we hear about such things, it is necessary to step back and see what Islam says about it first, rather than being quick to make judgments based solely on our own thinking and feelings or based on how people in the media spin their stories.

 

That BBC article is quite loaded and biased. The writer misleadingly depicts the political faction that calls itself 'Ahlul Sunnah' as being representative of the views and values of most Somalis, whom he says are 'Sufis', in order to rationalize its war with its rival faction, Al-Shabaab. He peddles a presupposed idea, without bothering to establish its validity, that the two groups' opposing views on grave veneration have led to an ideological war between 'Sufis' and 'Wahhabis'. It is a false idea, but I gather its validity is of no relevance. The objective isn't to relate news in a factual and balanced way, it seems, but to divide and stir up conflict among Muslims by promoting (in the place of the war on Islam) an ideological 'war within Islam'.

 

He makes it seem as though there is a 'Sufi' doctrine that allows grave veneration and a 'Wahhabi' doctrine that forbids it, but if those labels he uses can even be applied to the groups he speaks of, then technically 'Wahhabism' and 'Sufism' are a movement and a branch, respectively, within the broader fold of Sunni Islam. Sunni Islam has only one accepted position on the adornment and veneration of graves. The Quran speaks firmly against it, the Sunnah strictly forbids it, and all four schools of fiqh uniformly agree upon it being forbidden. That is where the ideological conflict hoopla falls apart. Clearly, if a person or group--be it even one branded as 'Sufi' or bearing some other Islamic-sounding label--defends the adornment and veneration of graves, their position has no basis in any Sunni madhab. It is not 'Wahhabism' they have a problem with in that case, but very basic principles and rulings of the Quran and Sunnah and their implementation.

 

That said, what Islamic teachings and rulings stipulate in principle and how people implement them in practice are two separate matters. Even when a stance or decision is correct in principle, there may be failings or shortcomings in its application. So when people make it a point to reasonably criticize the methods of any group or entity which claims to be implementing Islamic rulings, it is understandable and, in fact, necessary. There is a need for approaches that are balanced, prudent, well-thought-out, and compassionate. Yet that is precisely what the factions in Somalia, especially those that claim to implement Islamic rulings, lack. I don't even have to dig deep to find the wrongs in their activities. I need only look at their propensity to turn everything from corporeal punishments to grave excavations into crude media spectacles.

 

What is the purpose of them having pictures and videos taken of Muslims' bodies and remains as their graves are being excavated or as they are being stoned to death? What is the purpose of them taking someone's freshly amputated hand and, like a toy, putting it on display for media alongside the Quran and a bloody knife? I don't view those types of deeds as mistakes or things done out of ignorance. It shows they have no regard for how their senseless actions humiliate those on the receiving end, nor for how they may give people negative impressions of Islam and actually repel them from it.

[Nur]

Well put Warmoog

 

" That said, what Islamic teachings and rulings stipulate in principle and how people implement them in practice are two separate matters. Even when a stance or decision is correct in principle, there may be failings or shortcomings in its application

 

True indeed.

 

"So when people make it a point to reasonably criticize the methods of any group or entity which claims to be implementing Islamic rulings, it is understandable and, in fact, necessary.

 

Logical

 

 

" There is a need for approaches that are balanced, prudent, well-thought-out, and compassionate".

 

A timely Naseexah (advice)! May Allah reward you immensely for it.

 

"Yet that is precisely what the factions in Somalia, especially those that claim to implement Islamic rulings, lack."

 

Sometimes!

 

 

" I don't even have to dig deep to find the wrongs in their activities. I need only look at their propensity to turn everything from corporeal punishments to grave excavations into crude media spectacles."

 

Here I have my doubts. Mighty Media is the keyword, and they work magic to make people believe black is actually white (Vladimir Putin). World Media no longer serves world people, it serves politicians and Bankers, who together lead our world to its current situation. The Media has anointed Somali warlord criminals as peacemakers. Criminals who have committed the most gruesome and atrocious crimes in history of Somalia since 1990 with the help of nations whose strategic designs weighs far more than the suffering of poor peoples cursed to live nearby strategic areas.

 

Still, as a person who has no connection to any group, I view every news print or broadcast with utmost doubt, simply because, World Media no longer belongs to even to its own people, it belongs to financial magnates whose vision is reformatting how people should think, thus, they skillfully put together any piece of news to make it serve the sponsors objective.

 

 

"What is the purpose of them having pictures and videos taken of Muslims' bodies and remains as their graves are being excavated or as they are being stoned to death?"

 

A good question that needs a direct answer from those behind the excavations.

 

"What is the purpose of them taking someone's freshly amputated hand and, like a toy, putting it on display for media alongside the Quran and a bloody knife?"

 

Right after 911 attacks, they also had a Holy Quraan next to one terrorist passport to show the connection of Quraan to terror, it was miraculous that these papers survived metal melting temperatures where the black boxes melted. This is what I was talking about, knowingly or not, these kids no matter how noble their cause is, are no match for mighty media's damaging footage. You need to look at these footage as a part of well concerted effort to brand entire Islam as barbarian, while the politically motivated massacres of Somalis in the hands of warlords, the killing fields in Iraq of 1.5 million dead Iraqis, thousands of Afghan civilians, millions of Vietnamese and Latinos as Civilized. They are masters in conveying a message, when they attack, they call it Shock and Awe, not Terror!

 

If you were a neutral judge presiding over these claims, footage and propaganda, the first thing you would do before making a verdict on any party would be to dig for motives of the conflict, which is an inseparable component of the making of this Hollywood production. Motives behind crimes make a big difference, as wide as unintentional manslaughter to premeditated cold blooded murder.

 

 

 

Nur

[Naxar Nugaaleed]

so , there is all sorts of disagreements concerning religion, how bout we we leave religion out of it all together? I.e secularism

[Polanyi]

jzk, sister warmoog.. great post as Nur has said. your posts have been missed.

[Warmoog]

Nur,

Brother, your view of the (mainstream) media--and I think what you have described is indeed the mainstream media, even though you spoke in general terms--is understandable. I can very much relate to it. The mainstream, corporate-owned or government-owned media does serve the interests of a small but powerful few and it is generally aimed more at influencing how people think and behave, rather than actually conveying the truth. But there is also alternative, independent media, which tends to be very different, so we can't paint the media as whole with the same brush.

 

At the end of the day, if we want to keep our minds our own, it is up to each of us to learn how to recognize and filter out the propaganda so that we can at least gather the basic facts and form our own conclusions about what is going on in the world.

 

My contention with things like grave excavations and public punishments being turned into media spectacles is not so much about what the media does with the videos and pictures it captures at those scenes, but about why the media is invited there with its cameras in tow to begin with. It would be one thing to invite members of the media without their equipment as witnesses, but it is another to allow a free-for-all. Especially since those groups that claim to be implementing Islamic rulings have no news mediums with which to minimize or counter the propaganda that can be expected to be used to stir public opinion against them and, more importantly, against Islam.

 

Earlier in the thread, you mentioned the hadith about the Sahaba who took of the body of Prophet Daniel (peace be upon him) out of his tomb and buried him in an unknown grave in order to hide it from those who venerated the tomb. Notice the wisdom of the Sahaba (peace be upon them all), who they did what they had to do under the cover of night, and compare that to those people who invite Al-Jazeera to the scene so that it broadcasts footage of grave excavations to every corner of the world.

 

The incidents of punishments-turned-media-spectacles are worse. I mentioned the case of the Quran, an amputated hand, and a blood-stained knife being put on display for the media. It happened in Kismaayo in May, 2009, and Al-Shabaab did everything there on the spot and on its own. It was not a case of the media taking footage of an amputated hand and superimposing an image of the Quran, for example. Tricks like that are used to manipulate audiences into making the kind of associations that the spin doctors in the newsroom want them to make and the post-9/11 propaganda piece you mentioned is an example, but there was no need for that in the Kismaayo case because the unthinking Shabaab did all the work for the spin doctors in advance.

 

I hope you understand what I'm getting at. It is as though they prepackage the propaganda or provide a lot of fodder for it and I find that, among other things, very suspicious. They seem to pick and choose what they expose to the media too. There have been a few reports over the years of them executing alleged spies caught in their midst by line of fire, yet no videos or pictures of those incidents have ever surfaced. When the method of punishment has more shock-value, however, such as limbs being cut or someone being stoned, the stage is set for a media frenzy.

 

You said the motives of a crime make a big difference. Before Allah, yes, and in a court of law, perhaps. In the media, however, the actual effects of someone's deeds or misdeeds are what matter most. When those factions do or say ill-conceived things that can be used to repel people from Islam or from the implementation of the Shari'ah, whether they did it with good intentions or not would make no difference.

[Nur]

Baarakallahu Feek Warmoog sis

 

 

Once more, a well thought out response, and overall, I concur with your stance.

 

Ukhti Al Caziizah, So true is your take on this issue, yet sad. I have no justification for certain actions I see committed by these kids in the name of Islam except to say that its sheer immaturity for the responsibility of establishing an Ideal Islamic society, possibly due to being oblivious to the magnitude of the media impact their unwise and unwitting actions cause to war weary minds.

 

Its difficult not to believe a lie repeated thousands of times in the mainstream media, specially when such a lie is strengthened by indefensible actions by these kids that frame our faith and the faithful exactly where the enemies of our faith want, playing right into their hands ( Media Cameras).

 

The problem is compounded further when those vested with power in their ranks and their foot soldiers on the ground have a weak link (in communications), and as a result, orders are NOT carried out as they were meant, which was to set a glaring good example of Islam in practice.

 

Some of the questionable ways their vision is being implemented on the ground level by sincere but ignorant followers doesn't help the cause of Islam in present day Somalia at all, worse yet, at times its being put in force in ways contrary to the moral of the Sharia which makes their entire lot the laughing stock of their adversaries, literally, the Rodney Dangerfields, and its precisely for this reason that Allah SWT reminded us in Surah Al Cimraan in Holy Quraan to seek Him by this Dua prayer:

 

" O Allah, Forgive us our sins, and ISRAAFANAA( Excesses, transgression, aggression, waste of resources and time, nonsense etc) in our cause, and make our feet firm (on ground of righteousness)" and help us prevail against the unbelievers (Of Your Message to mankind)

 

Allah in Suurah Al Mumtaxana, also reminds self appointed believers who took upon themselves the heavy responsibility of delivering the message of Islam to mankind to say:

 

" Rabbanaa laa tajcalnaa fitnatan lilladiina kafaruu."

 

" "Our Lord! Make us not a trial for the disbelievers, and forgive us, Our Lord! Verily, You, only You are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise." , Meaning: " O Allah do not make the unbelievers prevail at our expense so that :

 

A. They justify and continue in their disbelief, which is the result of our failure to be a good living example for them to come to our fold toward your straight path.

 

b. They oppress and torture us so bad to the point we become disbelievers like them.

 

 

Ukhti Al Kareemah, You have really touched on a timely issue that I was planning to dedicate for my next thread to give advice for those seeking to

deliver Allah's message, but due to their oblivion of what is going on around them and their apparent deficiency in the art of communications, fall prey for tricks three year olds in Halloween costumes master.

 

 

Nur