The Alternative Factor

[Khalaf]

Anyone familiar with the politics section or the politics of somalia in general will observe the constant complains against the TFG government, constant habshi this habshi that, traitors this traitors that. While everyone is entitled to their opinions and to air their dissatisfaction, one would expect in an intelligent discourse to provide solutions to solve the problems facing somalia, an alternative to the current government, a road-map to peace and how to deal with a divided somalia. I have been asking this question for a while and have witnessed other nomads such as Thepoint, Ngonge, Baashi and others also ask the same question, but nothing provided from the anti TFG, they stay mute on this point when challenged, they offer no ideas, no plan, only complains and empty rhertic. That says a lot about the opposition in my view, headless chickens.

 

And heres what the Pro. Samatar solutions were:

His five simple points he suggested Soomaaliya should led by:

 Aaminsan daryeelka ummadda Soomaaliyeed

 Aaminsan in uu maalkiista/maalkeeda iyo waqtigiis/waqtigeeda u hurayo xoreynta Soomaaliya iyo ku dhaqanka mabaadii’da dimuqraadiyadda

 Aaminsan qiimaha diinta Islaamka (Islamic values) iyo daryeelka qiimaha shaqsiga (respect for human dignity)

 Aaminsan in howshaan uusan ku raadsaneyn (dhaqaale ama darajo)

 Aaminsan ku dhaqanka caddaalada iyo ka fogaanta qabiilka

And heres what I asked:

 

Garthay, but the problem is however how to apply these ideals on the ground realistically: 5 years from now, 10 years from now, and so on. And where are the people that will apply these and common ideals/goals in somalia?

 

 

As you can see no answers there neither. The point is, right or wrong the supporters of the TFG such as Duke actually have a plan, and can pin-point, highlight their plans and road-map for goverance ect, unfortunately cant say that for the anti-TFG crew no political alternatives. Heres your chance on this floor. I very much interested in this type of disscussion, but disappointment thus far in this area of political discourse.

[Chimera]

Female President

 

Female Cabinet

[Khalaf]

Be realistic man. This is serious disscussion and i am hoping for serious feedback.

[Chimera]

I was serious and those two points is exactly what we need in todays reality cause we tried it all before except this.

[RedSea]

1. Get rid of the Ethiopians in Somalia and their stooges (TFG).

 

2. Soo celiya wadadii with improved version of 2.0 of the sharica.

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Khalaf:

Anyone familiar with the politics section or the politics of somalia in general will observe the constant complains against the TFG government, constant habshi this habshi that, traitors this traitors that.

 

Your open annoyance with those who vehemently call an end to the invasion and brutalization of their country is noted.

 

 

While everyone is entitled to their opinions and to air their dissatisfaction,

 

You consider the cold-blooded massacre of hundreds of Somalis, most of them women and children, and the displacement of nearly half a million somalis, a matter of "opinions" and "dissatisfaction"? Oh, how I wish this was all idle coffee shop chatter, in that way I can assuage my guilt by pinching myself to remind that's all talk. But this is no mere "opinion"... I didn't write the Human Rights Watch report which said War Crimes are "rampant" in Somalia. People are dead, dying and suffering on an unimaginable scale. There's real, palpable tragedy unfolding right before our eyes. So, I'm sorry if these pesky little bleeding-heart peaceniks who call for end to this madness annoy you.

 

 

provide solutions to solve the problems facing somalia, an alternative to the current government, a road-map to peace and how to deal with a divided somalia.

 

Are you serious? Some peeps were nearly hospitalized for wearing off their fingertips consequence of writing so much on this subject. This site is repository for the staggering number of "solutions".

 

But as everyone knows Somalia's problems are not too difficult to resolve. We all know what the solution is, it is the fair distribution and sharing of land/resources coupled with eschewing leaders who are unfit to rule even worse who have the blood of innocents on their hands. In the meantime, prioritizing trumps all other considerations. The expulsion of Ethiopian forces from Somalia is the number priority since no genuine reconciliation or cessation of violence can take place. After Ethiopia leaves we can decide our fate as we see fit. We can convene grand reconciliation conference where EVERYONE can attend unlike the sham one we have now and in that reconciliation conference we can hash out an equitable plan that meets the approval of all major and minor stakeholders. We should do away with presidency position since somalis view the president's seat as means to enriching their own clan at the expense of others and are liable to get excited and do foolish things to the detriment of others, the president should be entirely ceremonial. All powers safe for monetary and perhaps national defense should be vested in local governments. National politics should be based either on land (Regions) or parties (fixed number). These and many more sensible ideas are out there and frankly speaking they're more realistic than the TFG's plan.

 

 

they stay mute on this point when challenged, they offer no ideas, no plan, only complains and empty rhertic.

 

You're egregiously dishonest for writing the above. But now that you DO have realistic/viable plans of getting us out of this lurch, what say you?

 

 

Garthay, but the problem is however how to apply these ideals on the ground realistically:

 

Let me help you out. First, diligently follow the axiom: do no harm! Second, there's no magic pill, no panacea, no deus ex machina that'll unlock all dead ends... you simply have try and see all the while not killing people in the process. Third, the ideas penned by Pro. Samatar DO provide mechanisms for implementation. So you just gonna have to try harder in illuminating on the source of your credulity. Honestly, I'm baffled by it. I read Samatars proposals and he goes in great lengths c*****ng a way out of this imbroglio. Did you read it?

 

 

And where are the people that will apply these and common ideals/goals in somalia?

 

Anyone not part of the current crop of TFG leaders, chearleaders and 'neutral' supporters... plus no one who has blood of innocents on his hands either directly or indirectly. In other words, ppl who weren't involved in Somalia's civil war and only those with unimpeachable record in their service with the previous central government (S. Barre's).

 

 

 

The point is, right or wrong the supporters of the TFG such as Duke actually have a plan, and can pin-point, highlight their plans and road-map for goverance ect, unfortunately cant say that for the anti-TFG crew no political alternatives.

 

No one said TFG supporters don't have a plan, it's the nature of their plan that's so objectionable. Theirs is one helluva demented plan that involves killing and butchering their way into power. Their plan resulted in M'disho of 2007, what more needs to be said?

[Khalaf]

Dhulqarnayn -alSumaale,

Female President? Okey no problem there but all female Cabinet-unrealistic because you can’t completely shut out the male population reverse sexism. We have not tried it all sxb, I read the other comment on the general thread and I completely agree with you. But Somalia was by and large failed by Somalis ...and without work and people to do the work there can never be positive change right? How to achieve a positive change on a national level? How did as your example the rwandians acieve it? Educate us akhi.

 

 

Originally posted by Muj: Red Sea:

1. Get rid of the Ethiopians in Somalia and their stooges (TFG).

Red help me out here because I don’t really understand this. According to you and many others here the TFG are stooges, and you are very much against the Ethiopian presence in southern Somalia and rightfully so. However this is what I don’t understand, how on the one hand you and others vividly condemn the TFG stooges who according to you used xabaashi to kill other Somalis, but on the same hand support strongly an entity that does business with this same xaabshi. Does that make sense to anyone? :confused: I mean for crying out land, the xaabshi have bases in berbera and SL leaders are regularly in contact with Addis Abba right? It would be like condemning Mushaaraf as an American stooge and supporting any of the Arab leaders is it not? Bottom line the entity you support is also a xaabshi stooge.

 

2. Soo celiya wadadii with improved version of 2.0 of the sharica.

[/QB]

Sure but you think thats realistic? mida kale what- make it a 5.0 sharia? I strongly oppose religious-tribalism ect ninyahow for many reasons.

[Khalaf]

Originally posted by Socod_badne:

Your open annoyance with those who vehemently call an end to the invasion and brutalization of their country is noted.

Your deliberate (dishonest) attempt to twist my words and quote me out of context in order to make the bogus accusation as the above is noted. Lakiin ka gudub. For your information I have started two similar topics, one in the general section and one in the politics section. The purpose of both threads as any honest observer will note was to gather peoples ideas, concrete realistic plans, solutions, a realistic road map sort of speak on how to best solve the currents problems facing our homeland, and two how to reach agreeable conclusions between the different political opponents, how to mend divisions, and three how to change the status quo, the reality on the ground ie getting rid of Ethiopian troops and keeping the peace in Somalia. As a familiar member of this site of ours and with somali politics in general, I have yet to see any realistic political alternatives from the oppositions, critics to the TFG government. Granted it is peoples right to be dissatisfied and to dissent against the current status quo- complain or blame, or as on the other hand of the spectrum write scholarly articles about the situation in Somalia such as the likes of Pro. Samatar, but as they say Jalle talk is cheap. I am asking here show me the money. Show me the political alternative because I don’t see any and I want to see it; show me a working system that can bring peace at this moment in time, an organized Somali movement that can rule Somalia, not talk about how things should be or ought to be, but where is the action that is making positive head way opposite the TFG system in Somalia!.....ii dheh wa kaas wa kaan, wa saan waa saas. Ma garthay? Or is that too much to ask at this moment?

 

You consider the cold-blooded massacre of hundreds of Somalis, most of them women and children, and the displacement of nearly half a million somalis, a matter of "opinions" and "dissatisfaction"? Oh, how I wish this was all idle coffee shop chatter, in that way I can assuage my guilt by pinching myself to remind that's all talk. But this is no mere "opinion"... I didn't write the Human Rights Watch report which said War Crimes are "rampant" in Somalia. People are dead, dying and suffering on an unimaginable scale. There's real, palpable tragedy unfolding right before our eyes. So, I'm sorry if these pesky little bleeding-heart peaceniks who call for end to this madness annoy you.

It is very unfortunate that the lives of many innocent Somalis, in the past, present, and most likely the future are lost because of corrupt opportunists thirsty for power and domination whom are unwilling to compromise for the greater good of their people and country. But as in physics the relationship of cause and effect explains the realities of the current situation in Somalia. Cause: forceful territorial expansion to neighboring cities such as Kismaayo, the seat of the weak government in Baidio ect, parading and rallying the women and children with guns in Mogadishu’s stadium and threatening neighbors with war, loudly and proudly declaring the intention of sacking Addis Ababa. Effect: the chicken comes home to roost. What do you expect? As the saying goes don’t enter an ocean you can not swim in, and later complain on why you drowned. It’s a sad tragedy but this like the past was engineered by Somalis.

 

Are you serious? Some peeps were nearly hospitalized for wearing off their fingertips consequence of writing so much on this subject. This site is repository for the staggering number of "solutions".

I repeat it for you once again: talk is cheap and we have done enough talking and writing on this situation. What I am asking here is show me the money. Show me the political alternative because I don’t see any; show me a working system that can bring peace at this moment in time, an organized working Somali movement that can rule Somalia on the ground right now, not talk about how things should be or ought to be, but where is the action that is making positive head way opposite the TFG system in Somalia!.....ii dheh wa kaas wa kaan, wa saan waa saas.

 

But as everyone knows Somalia's problems are not too difficult to resolve. We all know what the solution is, it is the fair distribution and sharing of land/resources coupled with eschewing leaders who are unfit to rule even worse who have the blood of innocents on their hands.

As the saying goes the most serious of illnesses is the illness the patient does not consider serious! Somalia’s problems are very difficult to solve, if it was as easy as you make it seem, then we wouldn’t be in this predicament to begin and for this long would we? Mida kale what is stopping Somalis from implementing what you mentioned above: equality of distribution and accountable leadership? Or do we blame these failures on outsiders as well?

 

 

In the meantime, prioritizing trumps all other considerations. The expulsion of Ethiopian forces from Somalia is the number priority since no genuine reconciliation or cessation of violence can take place.

That’s all good and dandy. But I don’t know if we-you and I, are following the same news stories coming out of Somalia, but I can almost swear there seems to be no resistance to the Ethiopians in the Northern regions, Puntland, Mudug, Galgudud, Kismaayo, Lower Sheblle, Juba Hoosa, Juba Dhexey, or even parts of the capital, I don’t know the exact percentage of the populace of those regions but am pretty sure that is the vast majority of Somalia. So how and with whom will this task be achieved -expelling the Ethiopian forces and ultimately as I presume ending the TFG government?

 

After Ethiopia leaves we can decide our fate as we see fit. We can convene grand reconciliation conference where EVERYONE can attend unlike the sham one we have now and in that reconciliation conference we can hash out an equitable plan that meets the approval of all major and minor stakeholders. We should do away with presidency position since somalis view the president's seat as means to enriching their own clan at the expense of others and are liable to get excited and do foolish things to the detriment of others, the president should be entirely ceremonial. All powers safe for monetary and perhaps national defense should be vested in local governments. National politics should be based either on land (Regions) or parties (fixed number). These and many more sensible ideas are out there and frankly speaking they're more realistic than the TFG's plan.

What active steps are being taken on the ground to reach these goals or any goals, political alternatives to the TFG plan? Hint hint, the reoccurring theme of my post, and reason why I started this topic.

 

 

You're egregiously dishonest for writing the above. But now that you DO have realistic/viable plans of getting us out of this lurch, what say you?

See the above.

 

 

Let me help you out. First, diligently follow the axiom: do no harm! Second, there's no magic pill, no panacea, no deus ex machina that'll unlock all dead ends... you simply have try and see all the while not killing people in the process. Third, the ideas penned by Pro. Samatar DO provide mechanisms for implementation. So you just gonna have to try harder in illuminating on the source of your credulity. Honestly, I'm baffled by it. I read Samatars proposals and he goes in great lengths c*****ng a way out of this imbroglio. Did you read it?

See the above for more information, but in short scholarly talk in fact all talk is cheap when no group or peoples is embodying the spoken principles on the ground dont you agree? And this is the main problem when it comes to the opposition and critics of the TFG.

 

Anyone not part of the current crop of TFG leaders, chearleaders and 'neutral' supporters... plus no one who has blood of innocents on his hands either directly or indirectly. In other words, ppl who weren't involved in Somalia's civil war and only those with unimpeachable record in their service with the previous central government (S. Barre's).

Wasn’t the TFG the result of two years of peace negotiations? Does not this TFG have a mandate in two years time (2009) to have elections? Like it or not, good or bad it’s in the end a system is it not? Again what you said above is nice, but where are those people sxb you speak of and whats stopping them from taking the lead in the affairs of their country for the better? This is what I would like to get to the bottem of.

 

No one said TFG supporters don't have a plan, it's the nature of their plan that's so objectionable. Theirs is one helluva demented plan that involves killing and butchering their way into power. Their plan resulted in M'disho of 2007, what more needs to be said?

You may object and have every right to do so, but is not talk cheap?. What is needed is the political alternative and more importantly the group/people/movement that embodies the spoken principles on the ground. That is the main issue here and that my friend is the failure of the opposition to and critics against the current trans government. See the above for further clarifications.