The belief of Ahlu Sunnah Wal Jamaacah

[Khayr]

Originally posted by Suleyman:

Akhee Khayr, I wasn't trying to offend you and I apologise if I did, but I was rather advising that one should not take statements from those who have uttered disbelief in their books. In fact, one cannot quote books riddled with major kufr. The mere fact that the excerpt that you quoted approves taweel is blameworthy. Lastly, I wasn't aware that this was a debate, but more like an elucidation of the allegations mentioned in the primary article.

 

Asalaam Alaikuum

The scholars differed concerning the meaning of Allah's "descent" in the mass-narrated (mutawatir) hadith:

 

Our Lord - Blessed and Exalted is He! - descends every night to the lowest heaven in the last third of the night and says: Who is supplicating Me so that I may answer him? Who is asking forgiveness from Me so that I may forgive him?1

IBN HAJAR'S COMMENTARY

Following is the text of Ibn Hajar's commentary on the hadith of descent:

 

Those who assert direction for Allah have used this hadith as proof that He is in the direction of aboveness. The vast majority of the scholars reject this, because such a saying leads to establishing boundaries for Him and Allah is exalted above that.16

 

The meaning of "descent" is interpreted differently:

 

* Some say that the external meaning is meant literally: these are the Mushabbiha and Allah is exalted above what they say.

 

* Some reject the validity of the hadiths cited in that chapter altogether. These are the Khawarij and the Mu`tazila in their arrogance. What is strange is that they interpret figuratively what is related to this in the Qur'an, but they reject what is in the hadith either out of ignorance or out of obduracy.

 

* Some have taken them as they have come, believing in them without specificity, declaring Allah to be transcendent above modality (kayfiyya) and likeness to creation (tashbih): these are the vast majority of the Salaf. That position is reported by al-Bayhaqi and others from the Four Imams, Sufyan ibn `Uyayna, Sufyan al-Thawri, Hammad ibn Salama, Hammad ibn Zayd, al-Awza`i, al-Layth, and others.

 

* Some interpreted them in a way that befits the linguistic usage of the Arabs.

 

* Some have over-interpreted them to the point that they almost tampered with their text.

 

* Some have made a difference between a kind of interpretation that is likely and current in the linguistic usage of the Arabs, and another kind which is far-fetched and archaic, interpreting in the former case and committing the meaning to Allah in the latter. This is reported from Malik, and among the Khalaf it is asserted decisively by Ibn Daqiq al-`Id (d. 702).17

 

Ibn Hajar, Fath al-Bari (1989 ed. 3:37-38; 1959 ed. 3:32-33 #1094).

 

Al-Qadi [`Iyad] said:

 

What is meant by His descent is the approach of His Mercy, the increase of His kindness toward His servants, and the acceptance of their contrition, in the custom of generous kings and clement liege-lords when they alight near a needy, suffering and weak people.

 

It was narrated: "Allah comes down from the highest heaven to the lowest heaven."63 That is: He shifts from all that is necessitated by the Attributes of Majesty - such as the rejection of the arrogant, indifference to them, the subduing of enemies, and the exacting of punishment from the wicked - to all that is necessitated by the Attributes of Beauty, such as forbearance, mercy, the acceptance of contrition, gentleness toward the destitute, fulfillment of needs, leniency and alleviation in the commands and prohibitions, and pardon towards apparent sins. Hence it was said that this is a figural manifestation (tajalli suri) and not a real descent (nuzul haqiqi). The difficulty is thereby resolved, and Allah knows best.

 

64Al-Qari, Mirqat al-Mafatih (1892 ed. 2:136-137, 1994 ed. 3:298-301).

source

 

 

Taken from al-Salafiyya marhalatun zamaniyyatun mubarakatun la madhhabun islami (The Salafiyya is a blessed historical period, not a school of law in Islam)

 

Dr. Muhammad Sa`id Ramadan al-Buti recapitulates the essential similarity of the respective methods of the Salaf and Khalaf, both centered, as we have established, in the priority of Allah's transcendence. He shows that both the Salaf and the Khalaf applied figurative interpretation, but the Salaf applied an implicit, non-specific form of figurative interpretation which he calls ta'wil ijmali, while the Khalaf applied an explicit, specific form which he calls ta'wil tafsili:

Source on pg.7

[Cumar]

As-salaam Alaikuum brother Khayr

 

I am confused whether you actually understood what I stated in my previous reply.

 

The statement of Ibn Hajar:

 

Some have taken them as they have come, believing in them without specificity, declaring Allah to be transcendent above modality (kayfiyya) and likeness to creation (tashbih): these are the vast majority of the Salaf. That position is reported by al-Bayhaqi and others from the Four Imams, Sufyan ibn `Uyayna, Sufyan al-Thawri, Hammad ibn Salama, Hammad ibn Zayd, al-Awza`i, al-Layth, and others.

 

Is the view of the Salaf and this is what I have stated because it neglects taweel.

 

Furthermore, you quoted some of the later scholars that dwelved in to taweel. One should note that just because some later scholars fell into this innovation, does in no way indicate that it’s permissible to apply taweel. It is important however to make one thing clear: that any scholar, who is sincere and desiring the truth, when he exercises his ijtihaad and arrives at a wrong ruling, then even if that ruling is an innovation, the scholar is still rewarded for his ijtihaad and the label of innovator can never be applied to him.

 

There are some scholars who had mistakes and dwelved in to taweel and I already gave you the example of Imaam Ibn al-Jawzee.

 

What matters is that the salaf never practised taweel.

 

You quoted Ibn Hajar that most of the Imaams didnt make taweel on the hadeeth of the Nuzool while in the statement; you quoted endores the view that Nuzool means Mercy. If the Salaf did not make taweel of Nuzool, what makes you think that we have to adopt the ijtihaad of the latter scholars? Should one follow the Salaf or the Khalaf?

 

Imam Ala al-Din Attar (student of Imaam Nawawee) says:

 

And all of the verses and ahaadeeth affirming Coming and Nuzool, and affirming face and other than that from the Attributes, the scholars obligated faith in them, and leaving contemplation of them and or depicting a form for them…..

 

And this is what Imaam ibn Hajar had said.

 

As for the last quote, then that is a lie. The salaf never practised taweel. Some of the Asharees twist the statements of the Imaams so bad in order to justify taweel. Sunniforum and sunnah.org are Asharee websites so I am not surprised.

 

As Ibn al-Jawzee said:

 

"Be a Shafi'ite, but not an Ashareete; be a Hanafeete, but not a Mu'tazileete, be a Hanbaleete, but not an anthropomorphist"

 

Asalaam Alaikuum

[Rahima]

Are you gonna tell me what's wrong with it though? Other than that the author is supposedly inexperienced? Ugh!

Not really for as I see it, this topic has been done to death. Not just here on SOL but on other Islamic sites.

 

Just to end it though, ponder over my dilemma Pi, you’ll learn a lot from it, namely, watch who you take your Islamic knowledge from- The caqiidah of the teacher is of prime importance to you seeking knowledge .