Could this be true for the political section of SOL?

[Oda_Nobunaga]

Originally posted by Alpha-Geeljire:

quote: Beledweyne, under the theory of elite reasoning, falls under the dadka degaanka category. How come Beledweyne-origin girls look more Arab than the others who claim to be of Arab origin? A lot of useless, boastful talk.

Now we all know the inhabitants of Beledweyn are "originally" from Goldogob, and its undisputed that they are truely a lost clan of Ilmo jaberti.

 

 

interesting debate,

but id like to clarify one thing though.

 

The ancestors of the 2 northern clans at least

the one dominant in Berbera arrived in the mod 12th century not the 600's.

 

making it the youngest, and more clearly

idebtifiable

If it's so identifiable then why is it that the fathers name has been forgotten, and engage in hoyoo-tirsi. :confused:

They do not engage in hoyoo-tirsi and you know that.The names of all thier fathers can be clearly

indentified, and are commonly used.

The maternal names are common because of the alliances between sub-clans that form around the maternal sides.

By identifiable i meant that as a young clan barley 800 years old the genoelogy should be more easily tracable.

[Gabbal]

Miskiin never mind. You are choosing to sidestep my points or dismiss them all together as if it is not research I have done on the area. I, however, would like to address some of your points.

 

 

I am bringing this because in bizarreness you brought the Sawaaxili and Mushunguli languages now. This fact speaks laudly you are novice when it comes to this region (and you claim to hail from some parts of Gedo? [big Grin] )

Shaqsi ahaan I am from Xamar, but cid-ahaan (as close as father and mother) our camels graze in the Wardheer Region of northeastern Ethiopia. I never pretended to be from Gedo, though I do have more family members there then any other part of the horn.

 

As for bringing Swahili and Mushunguli, I ment that af-Baraawe is a Bantu-classification language sister tongue to Swahili and the various groups in the federation such as Wagosha and Goobabweyn are Mushunguli speakers.

 

You are saying that (plz excuse this clan name) that the Digle-Mirifle is not a federation, a grouping, done without respect to a common language nor common heritage?

 

Perhaps my problem was I had not realized that you were debating about Af-Maay speakers (not exclusive to a clan) and not the Digle-Mirifle people as a unified entity!

 

 

First, now, going back to the subject of af Maay. First of all, I believe, firmly, af Maay is a dialect of af Soomaali, just as the other sister dialect being af Maxaa Tiri. Maay’s relationship to af Oromo today is perceived to be close because af Maxaa Tiri lost a substantial number of words, substituted in by other foreign words borrowed from other languages, mainly Carabi, Ingiriis and Talyaani. Af Maxaa Tiri itself were at one time as close to Oromo as to Maay; however, losing much of its original words made it a distant to af Oromo, Soomaali's closest cousin language.

The position of what relationship the Cushitic language speakers have in common to each other and to the rest of the Afro-Asiatic speakers is not definite even to famed linguists who have been studying them for decades.

 

The theory that has always been taken for granted was that Somali is part of a "Cushitic" sub-family and is most closest to Oromo and Afar. For the better part of the last decade, the postion of some famed linguists was to abolish the "Cushitic" sub-language family and make each of the languages under it a seperate wing of Afro-Asiatic. It is that misleading! The linguists have said that the languages are not as closely thought and that because of "similarities" accumulated through geographical proximity, the languages of the "Cushitic" sub-family have been given a false sense of being related. Meaning that Somali and Oromo are not from the same origin but have become to resemble each other somewhat due to proximity, and as languages such as Jiido, Tunni, and others are much more closer to Oromo then Somali, their origins lies with the Somali's neighbors.

 

Those same linguists cite Af-Maxaa tidhi (standard Somali) and Af-Maay as being unintelligible to each other as Spanish and Portuguese. The Cushitic theory is being left behind.

 

With that in hand, and while you are insisting some clans descending from an unproven mythical originality, how can they "Soomaalinize" others if their very Soomaalinimo insecurity is apparent.

Miskiin, as the topic of the thread dealt with bring points up about history, I am merely delving into the debate. I do not mean to insult, nor to demean, neither to be ignorant. The questions and points I bring up are only to understand more about Somalia itself and as you are the best person to educate and exchange debate with me on these matters, I am just taking advantage of the situation. I want to learn more about the people, I really do, along with getting my questions and confusion about the people answered. Despite what you might think, I honestly want to thank you for standing up to the situation and challenging me head on (cyper style!).

[Alpha-Geeljire]

I did mean genealogically, that all Somalis share the same common progenitor; probably Samaale. With the exception of the agro-pastoralist Sab, whom themselves are a loose confederacy with no kinship.

Walaalo, I disagree, I don't think all Somalis descendent from one man, and the faster we recognize our difference, the sooner we will see our similarities (mainly religion) and embrace them, and hopefully unite.

[Coloow]

Assalamu calaykum,

 

My catch on this issue is this:

 

whether we come from Arabia, Ethiopia, Srilanka or Australia (I saw one somali claiming to be an Australian aborigin!), we are united by a common bond (language, geography, culture, religion and to some extent neccessity).

 

I don't buy the tribalistic abtiris. I have denounced my so called tribe- I have come to the conclusion that its foundation is the same as that one of St Clause (father christmas).

 

I believe in only one unit of belongness- islam. all other things are based on lies and a distortion of history.

[Alpha-Geeljire]

I believe in only one unit of belongness- islam. all other things are based on lies and a distortion of history.

Correct if I'm worng, which I doubt, but doesn't our diin teach us to know were we came from and more specifically about knowing our qabil.

 

 

I don't buy the tribalistic abtiris. I have denounced my so called tribe-

 

Now how can you "denounce" your qabil, when you are born into that qabil and will be part of that qabil, unless your mother in unaware of who your father is.

 

 

I have come to the conclusion that its foundation is the same as that one of St Clause (father christmas).

I see such remarks as this one and many more from the likes of miyaar-moderator as diret insults and attacks on me and my "family," inwhich we are being referred to as "offsprings of an unknown father." How dare you question our lineage.

 

 

The other thing, why are you men trying so hard to impose your theories about Somalis and their origins on us, and expecting us to take all your crap?

[Viking]

Originally posted by Alpha-Geeljire:

Correct if I'm worng, which I doubt, but doesn't our diin teach us to know were we came from and more specifically about knowing our qabil.

 

Now how can you "denounce" your qabil, when you are born into that qabil and will be part of that qabil, unless your mother in unaware of who your father is.

Alpha-Geeljire,

You asked to be corrected if you were wrong so I will share with you my views on this issue bro. I assume you are referring to verse 13 of Surah Al-Hujurat where it says...

 

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and TRIBES, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). (Qur'an 49:13)

 

Now there is a problem here; the word used in the Qur'an is qaba'il which is translated into tribes by Yusuf Ali et al. Many Somalis mistakenly refer to clans as tribes; we (Somalis) all belong to ONE tribe which is the SO'MAAL. And this is what Allah SWT is referring to in the verse above, this (Soomaal) is what you are supposed to KNOW and not despise/discriminate on others (i.e. those who are not Somalis, on basis of qabiil). This is what the Diin teaches bro.

 

About denouncing the qabiil (clan in this case), the Prophet SAWS said that when making a decision about something, we should put it on a scale and look into what good (advantages) that will come out of it or bad (disadvantages) that will come of it, we were to pursue it. Clanism has brought so much misery to Somalis and abandonning it would be praiseworthy merely based on the misery it has caused us the past decade and a half. So don't be afraid to leave all that is bad behind, because this would only benefit you and your people.

[Alpha-Geeljire]

we (Somalis) all belong to ONE tribe which is the SO'MAAL.

The So'maal tibe haye Please further explain your theory.

[Coloow]

Assalamu calaykum,

 

Alpha Geeljire, I think Viking gave you an appropiate answer as regards what islam says about clanism. Our great religion should not be misintepreted. Many tribalists cite the surah that Viking quoted to enhance hatred- to make sure that tribalism becomes the only unit of analysis and to make sure tribalism becomes embedded in our socio-cultural lives.

 

The somali tribalism lacks academic nurture (some of the so called linkage could be easily rebuffed by kids as young as 5), it has no support in islam (because according to our faith, the muslim nation is colourless, it is disadvantages outweigh its benefits) and it is against what common sense dictates: How on earth would a person in his own mind become a slave to the notion that he/she shares linkage with someone else- based solely on narrations?

 

 

I am not imposing my approach on you or anyone. This is how I see it.

 

Denouncing something (specially something like tribalism which has become to colour our way of thinking) is emancipation from a normen culture that spans in all walks of somali life. From my perspective, it was easy. I was born in the NFD where my people (somalis) were persecuted because they were simply somalis. I called everyone somali speaking elder adeer. My parents never told me the tribe I belonged to. I was simply a somali. In the eyes of the kenyan colonial rulers, being a somali entitled punishment. For a somali it related to a common bond-unbreakable.

 

It was first in somalia when I was young that I was told I belonged to X tribe. I was sceptical from the onset. It relayed nothing new to my interaction with somalis.

 

I left somalia before the civil war and came to the west. During all these years my tribe never did anything usefull to my well being: Indeed the swedes did more benefits to my well being than what my somali tribe did for me. I live in an area that is not populated by many somalis. I have studied, did some research (layman), constantly lacked answers to my swedish friends on the logic of tribalism (the usual it is a societal functioning insurance) went out of gas- just the geeljire boasting some of us are guilt of).

 

My only connection to my "Tribe" was when a crazy war mongering dude, a so called elder inept on doing harming against fellow muslims called me and asked me for resources. I have never paid a cent. The irony is that I have never met these people. We have little in common. How can I, a so called somali sijui suddenly become united with one from ethiopia or mogadishu- or mudug? This defies all logics- and rationality.

 

Hitherto, I made a decision to denounce my tribe. I have never felt such a pride in my life. This approach gave me the right to be critical, the right to speak as an independent human being with the power to think- the right to worship ALLAh- the right to say what is on my mind- the right to leave the collective shell of thoughts emboided in the minds of tribalists.

[Alpha-Geeljire]

I think you know that your qabil is your family, some generation ago you and the person from your qabil had the same father, and you shouldn't neglect who you are and your "family". A good majority of Somalis automatically define qabil with hatred (as you have done), when in reality qabil is much more than "having to hate reer hebel because we fought." Walal you are an educated guy (well the way your writing lol)you know that qabil isn't what destroyed our beloved country, it was a couple of power-hungary old men who used the clan card to get to the position they wanted i.e Abdullahi Yusef.

 

I would write more...but my class is starting.

 

 

Ramadaan Karim

[Xoogsade]

Originally posted by Alpha-Geeljire:

Walaalo, I disagree, I don't think all Somalis descendent from one man, and the faster we recognize our difference, the sooner we will see our similarities (mainly religion) and embrace them, and hopefully unite.

That says it all. How about keeping your islam as well as it is no use to the rest who are, as you put it, DIFFERENT from you? Waxaanoo kalaa hoosta kaasoo galaaya hadhoow oo islaanimo been ah kuu muujinaaya isagoo khuraafaadkaan aaminsan.

 

Originally posted by wind.talker:

You know, under the

elite reasoning theory

"some" Somalis are from Arabia and you can tell because...(insert: bull$hit reason). And others

waa dadka degaanka

. So if they're

dadka degaanka, maxaa degaankooda loogu haystaa?

Why don't the Arab-claiming Somalis go back to Yemen - because, clearly, Somalia is

not

their land.

 

Beledweyne, under the theory of elite reasoning, falls under the

dadka degaanka

category. How come Beledweyne-origin girls look

more Arab

than the others who claim to be of Arab origin? A lot of useless, boastful talk.

 

P.S. I'm with

Positive's

take on this.

Wind.Talker, You have my respect bro. Qofaan carabna u ekayn muuqaal ahaan oo mugdigiisa reminds others of John Grang's tribe, nor does he speak arabic, why embarass himself and claim to be an Arab? Wax ceebaa jira oo laga xishoodo. I suggest they(anyone claiming to be an arab) should focus on studying arabic from now on to make the claim look credible. One can hardly differentiate between somalis in looks yet amongst them are people like Alpha_Geeljire who would have you believe they are different from one another. Ilaahay nama waalo. SAXIB, ADAA ISHA KA TUUREY, waddanka hanooga guuraan Real Arab Somalis, like those who lived in Shibis, Xamarweyne etc are the only true Arab Somalis and are our brethren. You wouldn't see anyone questioning them for claiming to be Arab Somalis. Wixii wareersan ilaahay hasoo hanuuniyo.

[Alpha-Geeljire]

I sense an inferiority complex some people have, seek therapy is my suggestion.

[Xoogsade]

Geeljire, you remind me of someone I had met online before in a discussion forum who claimed that muslims can't marry each other due to what he called Nasab differences. Meaning, nasab girl can't marry a man from a tribe falsely labeled as unnasab. Isma geeyaan in other words. I think the word was "KUF" or something akin to that. That guy was actually referring to some people he claimed were sheekhs. I thought he was spreading lies about islam and falsely telling us how it accepts such marriages only between nasabs and that a man can be rejected on grounds of his tribe being not equal to the One the girl hails from. What do you think of such beliefs/claims? You are the only superior around(or if there are other superiors they can jump in too) so there is no need to weigh your replies. Just fire away

 

PS: On a scale of One to ten, ten being the highest, I am interested to the tenth to know if such claims made by that guy can be verified or justified by you or by anyone else who knows anything about this inequality supported by islam. You are a good candidate to ask such weird anomalies because when you demanded from other Somalis to see you as different and that only islam can unite you with them(contradictory indeed, why care about the unity), I recalled him. I am in luck now and have someone who can verify for me something as weird as that. Anyway, soo daa warka. I am interested.

[Yoonis_Cadue]

Your question is really complex and it needs knowledge from someone who has studied fiqh but I believe that certain people who are from different casts can actually marry each other provided they're muslims and believe in Allah and the last day.

 

In the quraan Allaah says that a female slave is better than any mushrikah even though you made be amazed at it(walaa amatun muslimatun khairun min mushritatin walow cajabatkum)and that a male slave is better than a mushrik (walaa cabdun mulimatun khairun minal mushrik walaaw cajabakum), therefore the criteria has been set as who to marry, if a female who is from a higher class was said that it is better for her to marry a slave than her cousing or equal, we can see that nasab has nothing to do with it.

 

Also Bilaal rabiixah who was an xabash was married too a girl from the Quraish so were many saxaab who were originally slaves.

 

Islam makes someone who was seen previously as inferior superior as we've seen from the noble followers of our prohet.

 

On the other hand it is perceived to be good for the people who are from the same nasab to marry each other therefore preventing social status issues that can be prevented.

[Alpha-Geeljire]

I thnk yonis explained it, but I will answer your question.

 

Personally, I would marry a girl who was not from a nasab family if she is a muslim. But, why marry others when there are millions of girls who are nasab and a muslim too. Now I want to ask you something xoogsade, if there were two muslim girls one being white and the other Somali which one would you perfer and your family perfer?

[Xoogsade]

Yonis, Thanks for your efforts. What is the definition of the arabic word "Nasab"? As somalis, we use it to classify us and to set Somalis apart into privilleged and unprivelleged. Does our meaning or understanding of the word and how we use it correspond to what is meant by "Nasab" in islam? What is "casabiyah" btw? lol, bear with my questions saxib. If you read the history of Arabs, did they have a tribe or tribes among them considered ignoble?

 

 

I also thought a slave was another name for a captive person who lost his freedom due to conflicts. They call that person a prisoner of war nowadays. So the inferiority of the person in the eyes of the captors(pre-islamic Arabs) was not justified in anyway. It was due to the captor's inhuman mentality and treatment that islam was addressing. Naturally, a healthy mind(a muslim) recognizes the equality of human beings regardless and that is why when Arabs accepted islam, slavery disappeared gradually.

 

 

Alpha_Geeljire.

 

Well saxib, it is nice you would marry such a girl and have no qualms about the marriage. However, you followed your good declaration with some form of retraction by asking why I would marry the said girl when I have more girls available to me from the so called my nasab clan. Are you contradicting your statement mise anigaa faduul raba oo macno aan meesha ku jirin kala soo baxay? lol.

 

To answer your hypothetical question, my parents wouldn't care if I married a white muslim woman. I have my preferences as a person, but non of them are based on prejudist views.