Could this be true for the political section of SOL?

[Positive]

Although I may be sympathetic to the idea that the present day somali tribes are formed through a confederacy, because I may think that such an idea regardless of its validity will weaken our present day disease - tribalism, still I know in my heart that even such a paradigm shift in me or any other person still won't definitively solve our problem. Not in the long run.

 

What we need to recognize is that as long as division in the society appeals to the individual and the notion of we and they is a common accepted ideal we have not solved the problem.

 

We need to know that to become loving and kind to one another is the way out and the solution to our problem. The individual somali person has to recognize the common good and then relentlessly work for that common good. Such has to be the ideal of everyone of us- if we want to move to the light and to a rainy season.

 

Without Love and kindness to one another the problem may persist and may come in different disguises in different times!

 

As to what we should do now :

 

Our old way of being composed of tribes living side by side in a land of abundance is over. We are in a new era with new challenges. If we have to survive we have to adapt with the changing times. I think the necessity to adapt has not yet been recognized by the masses.

 

Our ancestors were creative if/when they formed small confederacies in order to survive. And we in our time need to become as creative as them even more creative. Their previous form of confederacy has worn out and we need now a new confederacy: uniting the present day tribes into a one big clan, namely: the Somali {nation}.This in fact has been the challenge in last 50 years in our history. We have not succeeded yet and the price we are paying is high.

 

In fact the problem is not that we are tribes but it mainly has to do with the code of the conduct which the members of a tribe adhere to, namely tribalism.

 

After all the difficult we have been through it is [still] high time to leave behind tribalism and its sub-cultures and embrace nationhood.

 

The Awakener

[rudy-Diiriye]

why do we always focus on the past and not the future!! does it matter how we got here? i think what matters is where we go from here!!

 

lets repect our past and move on... we got alot to accomplish!! after all nin dhintay, his shoes baa dhaama!! :confused:

[Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar]

Originally posted by Raqid:

Macruuf-

 

Walaaloo waxay u egtahay inaan meel xun kaaga dhacay. Hadaan gaf kaa galay iga cafi walaal. Though I should point out that the quotes you dug up of mine are completely

out of context.

Meel xun aad iiga dhacday ma jirto, saaxiib. Mana aadan ii gafin, maxaa jiro miyaa i caysay? Waa maya. Miyaa i aflagaadeysay? Maya. Marka gaf jiro maleh, macalinka. Just wanted to correct the misconceptions masqueraded as facts that you've repeated, even if you protest and point out they were out of context.

 

Irir and Samaale are political groupings and I have never met an individual who thought otherwise.

Well, this is what you wrote earlier: "That the Sab are agro-culturists and Samaale pastorialists, that Samaal have similar cultural traditions and dialects that are mutually intelligible as opposed to the Sab should give you the clue."

 

If they are also political 'groupings'that also validates some of my points of clans consisting federations. Clans came together exactly as a 'political groupings' to protect their interests. The only difference is, as I wrote earlier, today we know the recent mergers and can say so, while the old order ones when repeated continued all those centuries regard, to some sections, to as hard unquestioned facts.

 

You are free to correct me on this anytime, but in the way I understand it, the clan "family" of the people who live in Bay, Bakool, and other southern areas is the only clan-family done on federation.

This will take much time to explain, which I don't have the luxury to do now. A brief explanation, though.

 

There were original clans, which most to this day are there. However, as they increasingly became settled and sedentary, away from the harsh lifestyle of nomadic, they also became organized in a unique and untested in their times. While all settling and starting to farm, some individual families, sub-sub-whole clans eventually settled with them from other clans. As they increased, became part of local culture, absorbed the local dialect, there needed to be some clarifications or else clan strife might be inevitable.

 

So they were offered, after couple years of their settlement, the option of being part of an already existing clan in their respective region, supporting that clan's struggles, etc; however, they were told they can keep their original family or sub-clan names if they want. Some considered and thought it was a part of good deal, eventually accepting. Others said no, that they don't need what is today known as citizenship. It thus expanded. This was a unique idea, unheard in that time because it wasn't a grand coalition coming together and deciding to form an equal partnership, but because it was an individual cases in process.

 

Eventually other large clans copied this idea. One such example is, if you know Liiqliiqato's clan (I don't want to mention), they are called hebel 'martiile.' That marti tells you something. The other example is 'Carabtii...' that reside in Bari.

__________________

 

I guess there is a reason why so many tribes use "Hooyo" ama "Habar" as a unity instead of a "father" figure. I always wondered why the "Habar" or where is the "Father" for these nomads.

Xoogsade, there is a reason behind why it is called abtirsi. Abti-tiris. Some might excuse, though, it is ab-tirsi or aw-tirsi, but the word is unambiguous enough

[Alpha-Geeljire]

Why don't you guys seperate the one known Ismaciil Jaberti from all the others confused

 

 

Sky-awalba waa kaa shakiyey, I dare you to go to Puntland and say that

 

-Sadeboi/Nomadic Activist

 

 

Applause Applause for the re-entry of the Great descendent of Sheikh Cabdiraxmaan Bin Ismaaciil Bin Ibraahim (Jaberti) Bin Cabdiraxmaan Bin Maxmed Bin Cabdi-Samad Bin Xambal Bin Mahdi Bin Axmed Bin Cabdalle Bin Maxamed Bin Caaqil Bin Abi-Talib Bin Abdul-Mutallib Bin Abdul-Munayf Bin Qusaya Bin Hashim.

 

descendent of the great Hashemite race.

[Sky]

^^ I know. Its just a theory, maybe Raqid's take on this, which is almost everybody's view, is correct.

 

Sky, walaal I am not disputing that all Somalis are related as we have been inter-marrying forever, but that says nothing about geneology descent. The descendents of those partriachs were born in the Somali peninusla, grew up there, married there, reared children there, who inturn married more into the population, until present-day where if those patriarchs were actually matriarchs they would long have been forgotton. But, alas because they were men and the people of that world are patrilineal, it is bound to stay as highlighted as it is.

I did mean genealogically, that all Somalis share the same common progenitor; probably Samaale. With the exception of the agro-pastoralist Sab, whom themselves are a loose confederacy with no kinship. Perhaps having a core of pure Sab legacy. But than again Samaale could be merely a mythical figure.

 

Look at the general abtiris. Most people bump into their forefather's name after 40 or 50. At least that is so in my case. After 30 forefathers it becomes blurry and we enter an area where people agree and disagree. Go further and that gap grows bigger and bigger after passing each archfather, till you reach a height that is covered in total mystery. Somalis usually have a solution for this, and glue the abtiris of the prophet [May Peace and Blessings be Upon him] on the known abtiris.

 

It might be true that the two Northern tribes' forefathers are of Arab descent and landed at the shores of West Sanaag region within a century after the prophet's death [MPaBbuh], one not long after the other. After all these two tribes show more similarities with each other than they do with the rest of the Somali people subculturally.

 

 

Raqid, didn't the late President Siad Barre open an investigation on these matters or something in the late 80s?

[Oda_Nobunaga]

interesting debate,

but id like to clarify one thing though.

 

The ancestors of the 2 northern clans at least

the one dominant in Berbera arrived in the mod 12th century not the 600's.

 

making it the youngest, and more clearly

idebtifiable

[Sky]

How do you mean more clearly identifiable?

 

The tribe you refer to is most adament in its mythical Arab heritage, while at the same time it carries a name in its Somali version and not the Arab. How did the name-change into the Somali version [indigenous] occur if that Arab progenitor has introduced a strong patrilineal mindset? If there was one of course.

 

The other tribe has a name that is an ancient Arab word and it means Blessings. Many Somalis believe its a pagan name Istaqfurullah. I googled the name and I stumbled on row after row of Islamic websites to my surprise.

[wind.talker]

^^

 

He means all the rest are b*stard children! Generally speaking, when Somali folks debate this topic, its a way to solidify the theory of their clan-family origins (i.e. predominant Arab origin theory) as opposed to a genuine and plausible debate about Somalis' origins.

 

Anyways...

 

Originally posted by Xoogsade:

Sayid maxamed Abdulle dhab may ka ahayd markuu lahaa Nebigaa wax ii galay?

Yes, unless you're calling the Sayyid (alaha u naxaristo) a liar. :mad:

 

Originally posted by Xoogsade:

I always wondered why the "Habar" or where is the "Father" for these nomads.

Kuwa Habraha sheegta waydii

 

Originally posted by Xoogsade:

This elite BS waa waxa qarribey soomaalida. Hadda laakiin no elite sheeko sheeko, hilibkaa la qalaa proudly. Indeed humility is a learning process.

LOL You know, under the elite reasoning theory "some" Somalis are from Arabia and you can tell because...(insert: bull$hit reason). And others waa dadka degaanka. So if they're dadka degaanka, maxaa degaankooda loogu haystaa? Why don't the Arab-claiming Somalis go back to Yemen - because, clearly, Somalia is not their land.

 

Beledweyne, under the theory of elite reasoning, falls under the dadka degaanka category. How come Beledweyne-origin girls look more Arab than the others who claim to be of Arab origin? A lot of useless, boastful talk.

 

P.S. I'm with Positive's take on this.

[Sky]

^^^ True, there is a lot of bullshit flying around. That's why I believe Somalis are agnates and not just a collection of clans who somehow happen to have the same culture, physical appearances etc. No I don't buy that Arab sailors theory. Besides it sounds fabricated as well.

 

Look, there is no name/word in the rich Somali language that is exclusively used on basis of kin rather than region. What does that tell you? Since there is no centralising force that arranges this cohesion between the Somali brothers from Djibouti to Garissa, we must find our answer in our history and you'll be safe to conclude that we come from the same place.

 

Before Somalis can search for the real origins of Somali people. Somalis must be real themselves and see that these stories are halftruths at best.

Positive:

After all the difficult we have been through it is [still] high time to leave behind tribalism and its sub-cultures and embrace nationhood.

If my theory is correct, it shall have a very positive effect on Somali's quest for Nationhood. As in matter of fact, what might have seemed impossible will be possible with the knowledge that the Somali people is one entire tribe.

[Baashi]

Different take...hear me out.

 

1. Tribes/clans are the basis of Somali society is organized. In contrast, many nations around the world have social organization based on ideology, class, ethnicity, race, or religion but they also have unified national interest that overrides their differences.

 

2. Somalis are clan-conscious society.

 

3. Tribes and its ofshoot clans vie for political power and economic resources. Political contests in Somalia have always been waged along tribal lines (in sixties political parties were vying political power but under the facade the parties were clans disguised as legit political party) . The only exception that I can think of is the Islamists who attempt to position themselves as political force. There is also different political contest with nationalistic streak (unionists vs. secessionists) but many believe that it has tribal undercurrent too.

[Yoonis_Cadue]

There is only one somali tribe whose origin is well documented in the history books of the world.

 

If you for e.g. read ancient books from the famous Islamic Historians such as Carab Faqiih, Rajab page 95 and others it becomes very clear.

 

Dr. Mahamed AbdulQani Sacuudis book page 20 and Sheekh Axmed C/llaahi Debraash book page 13 could be used as reference.

 

Remember this are ancient famous books by well respected Islamic Historians from medieval times and others are modern books that are available in most islamic libraries and some western.

[Alpha-Geeljire]

Beledweyne, under the theory of elite reasoning, falls under the dadka degaanka category. How come Beledweyne-origin girls look more Arab than the others who claim to be of Arab origin? A lot of useless, boastful talk.

Now we all know the inhabitants of Beledweyn are "originally" from Goldogob, and its undisputed that they are truely a lost clan of Ilmo jaberti.

 

 

interesting debate,

but id like to clarify one thing though.

 

The ancestors of the 2 northern clans at least

the one dominant in Berbera arrived in the mod 12th century not the 600's.

 

making it the youngest, and more clearly

idebtifiable

If it's so identifiable then why is it that the fathers name has been forgotten, and engage in hoyoo-tirsi. :confused:

[Positive]

Sky,

 

Philosophically, Life is about problem solving. It won't let you sit idly and have good time but will always put new challenges on your path so that you will grow and become more proficient to survive in this harsh world.

 

That means the problems we have today are not accidental but are rather prelude to more complex challenges in the future. We are supposed to learn from the present problems, come up with sane solutions and then proceed on to a future with more complex and complicated challenges.

 

I can for example envision about 30 - 40 years from now may be less, depending on the situation in Somalia, thousands- yes hundreds of thousands- of people of somali descent coming back to the country . They will come back with different religions, cultures, languages, interests, yes appearance etc. They would be useful to the country but should they be accommodated and accepted ?

 

The clear answer is NO. That is if we can not heal our division now we will be ill-equipped to face and solve this future challenge.

 

This is what I'm trying to say: let us accept our differences but work together for the common good . Now !

 

The tribal lines can be used for the collective good and vice-verse. Even when we prefer to remain tribes we ought to learn to work together in peace and harmony and solve our difference on compromise.

 

May our hearts be opened to one another with LOVE.

 

The awakener

[Gabbal]

Meel xun aad iiga dhacday ma jirto, saaxiib. Mana aadan ii gafin, maxaa jiro miyaa i caysay? Waa maya. Miyaa i aflagaadeysay? Maya. Marka gaf jiro maleh, macalinka.

That is good to know. From the tone of your previous post, I sensed some hostility. But if it is something only I sensed, then with all due respect disregard it sxb.

 

There were original clans, which most to this day are there.

You say they were original clans. So why are there several non-Somali Cushitic languages prevelant in the groups. Languages such as Maay, Jiido, Dabare, Tunni, and Af-Garre (a clearly Oromo language sub-branch), Mushunguli, and Swahili ? Language is clearly one of the most important aspects of a specific culture. These languages, with exception to Mushunguli and Swahili which are Bantu languages, also are much more closer to Oromo then it is to Somali, clearly pitting the origins of the inter-reverine peoples as an ancient Oromo related sub-groups distinct from the Somalis. Inter-action has happened and most antropologists site the southward expanison of the Somalis as the main cause of Somalizing these peoples.

 

I am honestly relaying the information I have accumulated of the history of the peoples there. I have no reason to tell people about their "origins" or where they should belong or what they are. But history is history and writes as such.

 

Now to the present. These people are as Somali as the one in Burco or the one in Qardho. The new Somali indentity has whole-heartedly accepted them, however in a much biased way. For example, labeling a whole group of Somalis (they are as Somali as I) as "Others" was the first nail in the coffin that became the latest Somali failure. No one can stand here today or anywhere and say one is more Somali then another, and if that is what had percieved of my earlier posts, then walaal I do apologize if that is the assumption one recieved.

 

 

ALPHA-

 

I think Rahima will be the only happy to have you back.

[Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar]

Salaan...

 

You say they were original clans. So why are there several non-Somali Cushitic languages prevelant in the groups. Languages such as Maay, Jiido, Dabare, Tunni, and Af-Garre (a clearly Oromo language sub-branch), Mushunguli, and Swahili ? Language is clearly one of the most important aspects of a specific culture.

Horn, I know realized you need to understand the very basic foundation of what we have at hand. I overlooked this fact. I am bringing this because in bizarreness you brought the Sawaaxili and Mushunguli languages now. This fact speaks laudly you are novice when it comes to this region (and you claim to hail from some parts of Gedo? ).

 

No clan member of Maay-speaking clans speak af Sawaaxili or Mushunguli languagues. They all speak af Maay. Maay is as diverse as Maxaa Tiri, for there are countless dialects. Reer Afgooye wouldn't understand much if they encounter Reer Luuq. The members of particular clan-named languages you've listed, however, all speak af Maay in lingua franca.

 

Mushunguli, the people, and other Bantu tribes that live in Jubbooyinka and Shabeelada Hoose, speak af Maay as lingua franca as well, as recent arrivals of United States can attest. That doesn't mean they are member of Maay-speaking clans. They aren't. Most of them also speak af Maxaa Tiri. However, since most lost their original Bantu languages, they now only speak Maay and nothing else. Mushunguli tribe is the only tribe that retained their original Bantu language.

 

First, now, going back to the subject of af Maay. First of all, I believe, firmly, af Maay is a dialect of af Soomaali, just as the other sister dialect being af Maxaa Tiri. Maay’s relationship to af Oromo today is perceived to be close because af Maxaa Tiri lost a substantial number of words, substituted in by other foreign words borrowed from other languages, mainly Carabi, Ingiriis and Talyaani. Af Maxaa Tiri itself were at one time as close to Oromo as to Maay; however, losing much of its original words made it a distant to af Oromo, Soomaali's closest cousin language.

 

It was Maay-speaking tribes that early came contact with Oromo tribes in much of South. The originality of why Oromos were called "gaalo" comes in this equation. It is said Oromos were nomadic people with huge camels. Upon seeing this, they were immediately called gaalo because of their vast camels. (Geel derives from gaal, as it is still used in af Maay.) This word, gaal, stuck, and Soomaalis started calling any foreigner with foreign beliefs gaal, thus later applying to gumeysigii reer Yurub.

 

The particular languages you mentioned may have been the other way around, losing their original Soomaali words to Oromo since these languages were the most heavily interacted with Oromos in deep interiors of south, particularly in jungles of Qoryooleey, Ceelwaaq, Baraawe, and Kismaayo. One language was further particularly influenced by af Barawaani, itself consisting mainly Sawaaxili.

 

The issue of "Soomaalization" of Maay-speaking tribes, I tried to reason you before how is that possible when Maay words themselves penetrated those of other Soomaali qabiils names if they were "Soomaalinized" themselves? How is this possible?

 

With that in hand, and while you are insisting some clans descending from an unproven mythical originality, how can they "Soomaalinize" others if their very Soomaalinimo insecurity is apparent.

 

And speaking of this, the clan of Guddoomiyaha Baarlamaanka, Shariif Xasan, claims not only to descent from Carab, but right into the Prophet’s household. They claim they are the children of Xasan and Xuseen. Their elder men take the title 'shariif' because they are the children of that sharaf house, which their very clan is called the plural of that noun. Perhaps Shariifka is your long lost Qureysh cousin, no?

 

And as for history, read Prof. Max'ed Xaaji Mukhtaar's historical books and articles. It may shed you much light, not to mention the basics you forced me to explain plainly.