Macallin Me Miskiin xiin; a discusson on alshabaab

[me]

Xiin,

 

You have no right to question anything. I have played with you long enough. It is time that you came out and defended your lies.

 

The Shabab is a necessary evil when our nation is confronted with the TFG I have described above.

Do you disagree with that? If so tell us what parts you disagree with and why you believe that the TFG should have a chance? And how do you address the shortcomings of the TFG on the 6 points of National Interest?

[Naxar Nugaaleed]

^ ABSOLUTIST like you and the shabaab do not believe in "necessary evils" or even pragmatism.

[Gabbal]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

^^Ma intaas baad rimanayd awoowe?

I do not think this retort is appropriate Xiin. Me has eloquently put forward his position against the TFG. The least you can do is recognize it.

 

As for the Al Shabaab issue. Dhab kama aha, it is my enemy's enemy is my friend ( ) although you can surely argue the logic here is seriously amiss considering the repercussions of an Al Shabaab triumph in the Somali state.

[Som@li]

Me, Well put,

 

The score

Me:2

Xiin:0

 

[The Zack]

^ &^^ labadiina ka dhex baxa odayaasha. Me waa la yara ceydhsanayaa baad mooddaa LOL.

[rudy-Diiriye]

Xiin:0

Dabshid:3

 

2 more days left before the whistle blows!! lol

[xiinfaniin]

Me, in concluding this aborted discussion let me describe and characterize your stance.

 

You vehemently oppose Sharif’s TFG on the grounds of sovereignty and national interest, you do not however support alshabaab (the only alternative to the tfg out there today), though you like what they are doing for the moment. That, my good brother, despite all the efforts to sound deep, makes you a man without tangible vision for better Somalia. You border being deeply in love with anarchy; to you alshabaab’s violence, the destruction, the suicide bombers, and the death and destruction, which are daily occurrences in Xamar, to you that represents the birth pangs of new Somalia. The sheer notion of upheavals and revolutions appeal to you, even if the disruption makes things worse, not better. I hope I am fair.

 

From that point, and as I depart from this thread, let me say few words about current TFG.

 

TFG, ya Me, is a legal fiction recognized by the world. It does not have the organs of a state. No entity in Somalia does. But it is a political arrangement that could work if given the chance. What it tried to do was to transition the county from a war ravaged to a relative political stability. The plan was to absorb armed Islamic factions in the south in to this entity so a national dialogue (where other political entities in the North of the county can engage with tfg) can commence. It did not happen, NOT because tfg felt big and refused talk to its opponents, rather it failed because alshabaab felt they could indeed defeat the tfg and have that part of country all for itself. That is how this conflict started. It’s between those who want to be so pure that they would not even compromise with their fellow countrymen, let alone with the neighboring countries, and those who can read the painful reality on the ground, and wants to end this conflict.

 

TFG IS also a known commodity. It’s NOT anew phenomenon. Those who support it do so because they firmly believe that for Somalia to come back we have to start from somewhere. It is that somewhere. It’s far from perfect; its basic political construct is clannish; both chambers are filled with men with questionable characters; it does not enjoy the support of all Somalis. But given where Somalia is today, with the exodus of its intellectuals, the desperation that reigns supreme in its most important regions, the vulnerability of its women and children, the choice is clear: start somewhere and gradually improve it as normalcy comes back. And this tfg, mind you, particularly calls for reconciliation. It’s not a threat to our national interests. The lack of sovereignty preceded it. The weakness you see is the result of two decades of civil war. In fact if Somalis do not come together sooner, they will get even weaker, not stronger. The presence of foreign troops in Xamar is justified on security grounds. Had alshabaab accepted peace overtures Sharif presented to them, it would have not been necessary for these troops to continue their presence. The reason they are here is known, if alshabaab’s way is to be had, more troops acceptable or not will come. The reasons are known as well. For those who have any sense of nationalism and Islaanimo would see this alshabaab bravado is taking Somalia to the wrong direction. But for a born anarchist like you, who confesses that he does not favor alshabaab yet supports the continuation of current violence because he does not like the composition of the current tfg and the selection criteria of its members, it does not really matter which direction this group takes Somalia. You just want Sharif and the tfg defeated. You don’t care what happens next. Living in London, I might add, you can indeed avoid not caring what happens next. That is understandable from that perspective. But it’s morally deplorable.

 

Simply put, I cannot see anyway out of this conflict other than a political settlement. I will always give my support to those who share that view. Those who out of sheer ********* make every effort to settle this conflict by overpowering others are in my opinion wrong. They will, one way or another, lose. I put alshabaab in the latter category. Needless to say Sharif’s tfg falls in the first category, and hence my support.

 

wa ku kaas awoowe.

[N.O.R.F]

Xiin, you should have taken JB's advice saxib. Debating with Me is useless. He has put in a good effort but it wasn't what you requested was it? From his assertions it is obvious he is neutral but doesn't want to admit he was wrong in his public support for AS.

 

He has only confirmed those who oppose the TFG will support AS because to them 'they are the only alternative'. No critical thinking takes place.

 

TFG, ya Me, is a legal fiction recognized by the world. It does not have the organs of a state. No entity in Somalia does. But it is a political arrangement that could work if given the chance. What it tried to do was to transition the county from a war ravaged to a relative political stability. The plan was to absorb armed Islamic factions in the south in to this entity so a national dialogue (where other political entities in the North of the county can engage with tfg) can commence. It did not happen, NOT because tfg felt big and refused talk to its opponents, rather it failed because alshabaab felt they could indeed defeat the tfg and have that part of country all for itself. That is how this conflict started. It’s between those who want to be so pure that they would not even compromise with their fellow countrymen, let alone with the neighboring countries, and those who can read the painful reality on the ground, and wants to end this conflict.

 

TFG IS also a known commodity. It’s NOT anew phenomenon. Those who support it do so because they firmly believe that for Somalia to come back we have to start from somewhere. It is that somewhere. It’s far from perfect; its basic political construct is clannish; both chambers are filled with men with questionable characters; it does not enjoy the support of all Somalis. But given where Somalia is today, with the exodus of its intellectuals, the desperation that reigns supreme in its most important regions, the vulnerability of its women and children, the choice is clear: start somewhere and gradually improve it as normalcy comes back. And this tfg, mind you, particularly calls for reconciliation. It’s not a threat to our national interests. The lack of sovereignty preceded it. The weakness you see is the result of two decades of civil war. In fact if Somalis do not come together sooner, they will get even weaker, not stronger. The presence of foreign troops in Xamar is justified on security grounds. Had alshabaab accepted peace overtures Sharif presented to them, it would have not been necessary for these troops to continue their presence. The reason they are here is known, if alshabaab’s way is to be had, more troops acceptable or not will come. The reasons are known as well. For those who have any sense of nationalism and Islaanimo would see this alshabaab bravado is taking Somalia to the wrong direction. But for a born anarchist like you, who confesses that he does not favor alshabaab yet supports the continuation of current violence because he does not like the composition of the current tfg and the selection criteria of its members, it does not really matter which direction this group takes Somalia. You just want Sharif and the tfg defeated. You don’t care what happens next. Living in London, I might add, you can indeed avoid not caring what happens next. That is understandable from that perspective. But it’s morally deplorable.

 

Simply put, I cannot see anyway out of this conflict other than a political settlement. I will always give my support to those who share that view. Those who out of sheer ********* make every effort to settle this conflict by overpowering others are in my opinion wrong. They will, one way or another, lose. I put alshabaab in the latter category. Needless to say Sharif’s tfg falls in the first category, and hence my support.

Well said. In order to run one needs to first walk and get his balance. Me will accept nothing less than running from someone who has just been involved in a multi car pile-up and lay in a coma for 20 years without fully rehabilitating. There is no 'reasoning' involved. Its my way or the high way. It is quite unfortunate that many who hold Somalia's key to the future think along the same lines.

[me]

Xiin,

 

I have quoted these 4 important points from your post.

 

1.

TFG is a legal fiction recognized by the world.

2.

TFG IS also a known commodity. It’s NOT anew phenomenon. Those who support it do so because they firmly believe that for Somalia to come back we have to start from somewhere. It is that somewhere. It’s far from perfect; its basic political construct is clannish; both chambers are filled with men with questionable characters; it does not enjoy the support of all Somalis.

3.

start somewhere and gradually improve it as normalcy comes back. And this tfg, mind you, particularly calls for reconciliation.

4.

The presence of foreign troops in Xamar is justified on security grounds.

 

 

The TFG is a legal fiction

 

As you have pointed out the TFG is a legal fiction. It has been concocted and cooked up by foreign actors who wished to have a partner in Somalia. A puppet that can turn up during ceremonies and sign papers when needed. People other than Somali’s have decided to invent a Somali government for their own benefit, not for the benefit of the Somali people. The main stakeholder of the TFG is not the Somali Nation but those who have invented it. Those that fund it and those that keep it alive. So it was interesting to hear Ould Abdalla call the TFG the legitimate government of Somalia, I was amazed by his speech and wondered what criteria he used to come to the conclusion that the TFG is the legal government of Somalia?

 

TFG is invented and has no legitimacy whatsoever. Its framework has been designed externally and now they expect us Somali’s to accept this framework like rats in maze, like hamsters in a wheel. The TFG framework is worse than colonialism. It has the pretence of self-government, but is designed in such a way that our people will be virtual slaves. That our government will be accountable to foreign actors not our own people.

 

 

The TFG is a known commodity that is flawed but it may gradually improve?

 

In the previous paragraph we saw that the TFG framework was flawed and that it was unfit for the needs of our people. In this paragraph I will try not dwell on the characters that make up the TFG.

 

You said:

 

its basic political construct is clannish; both chambers are filled with men with questionable characters; it does not enjoy the support of all Somalis.

So we can see that the TFG’s design is flawed and that those that make it up are questionable characters. Now I wonder if the game is already rigged and those that are duped into playing the game are questionable characters how can the TFG gradually improve? Are you saying that we Somali’s should lower our standards? That we should expect less? Do we not have the right to make a government of our own? A government by the Somali people and for the Somali people?

 

Do we not have the right to choose how we govern ourselves and those who make up our own government? Do we not have the right to hold those that take the responsibility of governing our nation accountable?

 

We can see here that for us Somali to accept the TFG equals to accepting a colonial framework that undermines our right to have a state of our own design and our right to choose those that govern us.

 

Foreign forces

 

I will keep this one short. The TFG is an illegal entity that has been concocted up by foreign forces. It does not have the support of the Somali people and it cannot survive on its own.

 

The fact that the TFG needs foreign forces shows its illegitimacy. The fact that the TFG is trying to subjugate the Somali Nation with the help of foreign forces that shell civilian areas show how corrupt the TFG is.

 

The TFG is a covering screen for an invasion against Somalia, it is not the Somali government and those that work with it are committing treason.

 

 

Conclusion

 

If you know all this and still support the TFG then tell me, how you believe that the TFG given its limitations can gradually improve and give the Somali people the government they need?

[Gabbal]

Me, you have already eloquently established your position against the TFG.

 

What the gallery now wants to hear is what is the alternative?

 

Remember the political situation in Somalia is a two street today as Xiin put forward. Either you support Al Shabaab or your support the TFG or you take the third civilian option and remain neutral. If it is the latter two, then this discussion would become pointless since Xiin would not have a bone to pick with you. If it is the earlier, then you need to say so because this is what the topic is about.

 

p.s. If I am playing self-declared referee role, bear with me.

[me]

Gabbal,

 

Before we get there let us first hear the full case of the Sharifites and other TFG supporters.

 

Once they have put forward their full case can we move to the next level.

 

As I referee I expect you to urge them to move towards that direction.

[Hunguri]

To be honest Xiin has a point, and he is the absolute,clever debater than Me. Irrespective of their political stance, if I was to announce the award of the good debater, the honest, and the transparancy of the beleive. I would say Xiin is the winner. For simply, he knows what he is debating, and why he is debating. Me, is an attention seeker, he neither debates, nor he has a point. He should attend a class session of General Duke's Political mataphor skills. Hence,

 

Xiin 7/10

Me 3/10 ( I'm giving him the 3 points, coz he is brave, and good in twisting, taking out of context, and Pinches people like Russians)

 

Xiin:-

 

I have given you 7/10. You have 3 points minus, and I would advice to be not too emotional. Honestly speaking, you debate good. But, you are too emotional, and sometimes get carried away by emotions. Thus, set aside the emotions, and good luck with your debates.

 

Adeer, hadii Gar la qaadayo, ama rag loo gar naqqayo. Garta Wadnaha iyo meesha ay ka ooydo ayaa lagu dhuftaa. Xiin, waa nin wax oggol, Xiin anigu markaan ogaa Abdillaahi Yuusuf waa kasoo horjeeday, Ethiopia-na waakasoo horjeeday. Dadka Xiin la debate garaynaya. Waa inay sugaan maalinka Shariif-ku Ethiopia Wadanka soo galiyo. Maalinkaa ayaa Xiin lakala ogaanayaa. Laakiin, inta ka horraysa. He is the winner.

 

3 Baa Xukkun kaa qaada:-

 

(1)Gar eexo

(2)Guddoon Jilicsan

(3)Gacan adayg

 

3 Lalama dago

 

(1)Fulay Daandaansi yaqaan

(2)Doqqon Fiira taqaan

(3)Bakhayl Damac yaqaan

 

3 Lalamo Rafiiqo

 

(1)Ma horreeye

(2)Ma Haasaawe

(3)Ma Hanbeeye

 

3 Halla doodin

 

(1)Rabbi ma yaqaan

(2)Rag ma yaqaan

(3)Run ma yaqaan

 

Waxaan idin leeyahay. Xiin, is the winner. Soomaliyeey ( Hadal waa, Dan, i Daali, iyo Dood )!

 

Nabaday!

[Gabbal]

TFG is bad, fine. Do you have an alternative Me?

[me]

Gabbal,

 

Yes I do have an alternative. However the case of the Sharifites is not yet exhausted. First we need to cover that area before we can move on.

 

Xiin and Paragon have between them the skills to put forward a stronger case for the TFG then they have done so far.

 

As a referee it is your job to urge them to put forward their complete case for the TFG.

 

After doing that we should analyze the points of contention and accept any consequences that may arise from this debate.

 

Only once those criteria have been met can we speak of an alternative.

[Malika]

Gabbal,

How neutral are you in this? We cant have a referee that has a self interest in causing more division then unity of the thoughts of these two men..

 

xiin and 'me' have a shared interest,which is to see Somalia stable and functioning,their difference lays in the path that leads to that achievement..They are lesser enemy to each other although at the moment they dont seem to realise that,if both parties concentrate on the bigger objective and come to terms with each other in deliverance of the so called 'aim' of both parties,they shall reap the benefits..[easy said,I know]..

 

xiin,I like the reverse psychology on the boys,wabee naxeen when you started calling them names..Lol.

 

 

‘me’ reminds me of Bob Marley’s song “Emancipate yourself from mental slavery” ..ah! The liberation of the nation from those lead/supported by the parasites aka capitalist [uSA, Ethiopia, UN, AMISON] must go, revolution will be lead by the youth from the ruined cities of Somalia [The true sons of Somalia], they shall bring them down, and create a new Somalia, without qabiil, warlords, erm government [lol]...Ah yeah, the creation of a ‘Somali Babylon’ is in full swing as we speak!... [Alright this was just humour—qosool gariir maad maqasheen?]

 

Alternative will only come once there is a dialogue between the two parties,with clear objectives and aims that are SMART -