Somali Empire (Vision to Reality)

[xiinfaniin]

^^Actually kaama harin. Thread kalaan furay. The invite is there for you.

 

Warka ah beri baad wax ahayd adeer ima marto,haddaan wax ahay ee reason with me baan taaganahay. ama sidii fabregas carar oo waxaa tiraahdaa discussion ma fiicna

[me]

Paragon,

 

You have said:

 

We can either be sentimental about it or sensible.

• Do you consider Sharifs insistence on foreign troops, including Ethiopian troops sentimental or sensible?

 

• Do you consider the giving away of Somali territorial waters by Sharif's TFG sentimental or sensible?

 

• Do you consider the way the TFG part 1 and Part 2 have been operating sentimental or sensible?

 

• What is your vision of Somalia under perfect TFG governance?

 

• Where do you stand on this talk of Empire while Sharif is pitching for Ethiopian troops?

 

Where do you draw the line? When does pragmatism become defeatism?

[me]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

^^Actually kaama harin. Thread kalaan furay. The invite is there for you.

 

Warka ah beri baad wax ahayd adeer ima marto,haddaan wax ahay ee reason with me baan taaganahay. ama sidii fabregas carar oo waxaa tiraahdaa discussion ma fiicna

Waajibkayga waan gutay, mar hadii aad aqbali wayday sharaftii aan kuu ogolaaday, waa inoo threadka aad furtay.

[Paragon]

1- Sharif is a sensible man, and he has shown to be so. Even today after all the fights waged against him he's after reconciliation. Foreign help is pegged as he sees them. The foreign troops are necessary as long as they are not Ethiopians/Kenyans. And the Ethiopians will not be coming back as long as the Sharif is president. If you read current news, the Sharif has even asked the Americans to tell the Ethiopians to stay out of Somalia. America today made that clear to Ethiopia. So if your whole premise for argument was based on the Ethiopian-rally card, taas eeyaa cunay.

 

2- I think you've shown that your depth of understanding the issues surrounding the Memo of Understanding on disputed sea areas to be highly wanting. If anything your understanding seems to share a great deal with the illiterate local makhaaxi political pundits found all over London's cafes. Read the MoU first. One more thing, SomaliTalk and Dayniile are not intellectual portals but internet tabloids.

 

3 - The one I support now.

 

4- Yes. In the long run. Theiry's ideas on creating an Empire shows his determination for Somalia to rise and rise and rise untill it is a big and powerful as an Empire. It's his dream end result. And every human wants to achieve the best, if possible. On the your pitching Ethiopians comments: correction - it was Aadan Madoobe who called for the Ethiopians. Again as I said above, the Sharif stopped it. Read the news of America's call to Ethiopia.

 

5- When the Zaibatsu was dismantled after the Japanese war, it only become itself again but through Keiretsu and made sure that Japan rose again to what it is now. To you it may seem defeat but if one is clever enough he makes use of the worst difficulty, pragmatically.

 

It's what we are trying to do.

 

[edit] PS: US Warning To Ethiopia

[xiinfaniin]

^^tacliimi yarka Paragonow.

 

Me, thank you for accepting my invite. I await your exposition.

[me]

If Ethiopia is successfully defeated and driven out of the country, then the question is, what awaits Somalia that will find itself under multiple factional controls within compartmentalized territories? Another bout of twenty or fourty year old ideological civil way? Such a future is what worries me most, even more than the current TFG and Ethiopian occupiers. Now, at the present time, what we must start planning for is the sort of structural frameworks for stability and governance will be in place in post-occupation Somalia. I strong hold the view that it was our failure to plan ahead is what has led us into civil war, before even Siad Bare was ousted from power. And surely, that mistake has precipitated current Ethiopian occupation. Do we wish to repeat the same mistake? I hope not. As someone who has put a great deal of thought and effort into gaining some insight into our current condition, and the prospects of the future that awaits our nation, my advice is this: be visionary, think beyond today in order to catch a glimpse of the bigger picture while still paying attention to history.

1. What planning took place or is happening now that you have put all your eggs in Sharif Ahmed's basket? It seems to me that you have already resigned your believes and handed over your critical thinking to Sharif's TFG and downgraded yourself to a mere cheerleader.

 

2. Whether Ethiopia does something or whether America convinces her not to do something is not of Somali concern since these countries only think of their own national interest. What concerns me is that our nation has a government that leans on its own people for support and not one that leans on foreign countries.

 

3. Thinking of the big picture you described above does not mean throwing overboard principles and substituting pragmatism for policy.

 

Rollover and play dead doesn't work in the real world.

 

ps. Japan went through many periods of civil war the longest period was the Sengoku period 1467–1615. So Japan also went through a period of restructuring and negotiation with its national identity before the results you mentioned were visible.

[Muriidi]

what about the space national somali space program?!!!

 

is anybody thinking about the space program for goodness sake?

[me]

Originally posted by Norf 1:

Thierry, good stuff mate.

 

Will have my input when time permits but I have a wedding to get to so waa inoo wiiga dhambe,,,,

9 months later and still............... ..

[N.O.R.F]

still what?

[me]

No Input.

[N.O.R.F]

^sue me!

[Paragon]

1. What planning took place or is happening now that you have put all your eggs in Sharif Ahmed's basket? It seems to me that you have already resigned your believes and handed over your critical thinking to Sharif's TFG and downgraded yourself to a mere cheerleader.

Me, I don't think you really understand much about the right time for the right project. I don't know whether you're intentionally deluding yourself or you sincerely don't have a sense of timing. Now, I will go over this once more. If you read carefully, what idea does my above paragraph give you?

 

First, consider that the above paragraph was writen while Ethiopia was still occupying Somalia, while Ethiopia was promising it will leave Somalia soon or within 120 days.

 

Second, if you rewind your mind back, those 120 days or the months before the deputure of Ethiopian troops have a crucial importance to us Somalis. Do you know why it was important to us? I will tell you why, even with some examples. Once more rewind your mind to the late 1990 and early 1991 during the off-set of Said Barre's overthrow. Do you remember the 'time' of the Manifesto group or the efforts of the 'Suluxyada'? Maybe you know of it or perhaps you were too young then. Just like the 10 year (for South and 3 years for the North) Trusteeship before independence, we Somalis have been given time for planning for/and working out a viable framework of governance through consultation and supervision, so as to be able to cope in post-colonisation and post-Said Barre. In the former, the opportunity was 'partly' appreciated but in the latter, it was completely wasted.

 

Now during the time preceeding the Ethiopian depature, a whole lot of effort was put into 'reconciliation' and consultative grand meetings (in Djibouti), and all Somalis were invited to join and have their say as to how the country will be governed in post-Ethiopian occupation era. The whole purpose of these efforts was to avoid a repeat of what had happened during the overthrow of Said Barre, and Shariif being a reasonable man, recongnised the importance of timing and sensibility. He realised that it is not always enough to militantly want the occupiers to leave just like many Somalis simply wanted Ina Barre out, but also to think past all the pride and bravado that has come to symbolise the resistance movement.

 

The Shariif thus, whatever impatient thrill-seekers call him, became the man with the interest of the people and country at heart, and was prepared to do whatever it takes to make sure there will be peace in Somalia when the Ethiopians leave Mogadishu. He swallowed his pride and went to every Somali to ask them to join him in this crucial time and to see the importance of timing in solving Somalia's crisis.

 

Guess what happened though? The Al-Shabaab, being foreign-dominated, didn't want to hear the nonesense of Somali peoples' interests. The Al-Shabaab's foreign minders commanded their Somali mouth-pieces to bad mouth the Shariif and even call the Shariif 'an infidel'. I mean it was only good of the Shariif to do everything he could to save Somalia. But saving Somalia wasn't part of AS' minder's plans. And to be quite sincere, it was only obvious that a mercenary from Afghanistan/Pakistan or from the West, who has paid ticket fare and who has put his 9-5 career on hold for a bloody holiday to Somalia, not to want to be told by his fellow Somali friends 'no sorry my friend but you can't use our women and children for target practice'.

 

Thus, the reason why hearing of the opportunity for PLANNING which is now possible again, infuriates the Al-Shabaab, and you are supporting them without knowing an ounce about it. So the time is now again for PLANNING, but can you see past all the bravado and the che guavara mentality? Most of the people have overcome this mentality long ago and became pragmatic. You should too. Perhaps you should start being critical of the AS and think through their agenda. We all did (I, theiry, A&T and others supported AS) but saw the flaws. Perhaps you should speak with people who have fought along side them too and ask them why they abandoned them. It will clear things for you.

 

 

To the rest of the points, I haven't got the time and I am sure you can understand the answers to them are quite obvious. But I will comment on the principles/pragmatis m point you raised.

 

No. You can be very pricipled and still be very pragmatic. People confuse principles with comradery. I hold my principles as firm as ever if not more but my comrades change at times, because I can see through them and pragmatically predict where their arguments will take us. Some comrades are a danger to themselves and to everyone else because of their belief that they have the right principles. When you look at it pragmatically, they don't have much principles but dreams and hubris. It's best to avoid them.