Somali Empire (Vision to Reality)

[me]

Thiery,

 

We started this discussion while there was a war in 'the south' why should we wait for when peace comes to the south?

 

What benefit will an empire bring the Somali people? Do we (Somalis) not have enough? Or was this piece intended as an advertisement of kibir and want for domination of other Nations?

[Paragon]

Theiry, perhaps I should reproduced my deleted rejoinder topic so as to highlight the predictions we've made and the reason why we thought reconciliation and sharif must be supported to get Somalia out of this quagmire.

 

It follows next.

[Thierry.]

Adeer although this debate at the moment remind me of the two comedians who argued about how they would share if they ever one the lottery I will continue to debate with you.

 

First Ask the US, China and soon India what being a large state has done for them, with regards to passing international policies ranging from free trade to Nuclear proliferation collective bargaining is a powerful tool adeer. Empires are good for their people, the Mongols benefited tremendously from Khans victories, they through influence managed to build from the cold desert a bustling trade capital. The Abbasids, Umayyads, Persians and Romans benefited tremendously from having large empires that traded in silk and spices. No kibir just ambition but being a pragmatist I feel this isn’t the right time to discuss this topic.

 

Paragon add your one saxiib

[Paragon]

SENTIMENT AND SENSIBILITY: A REJOINDER TO (THIEIRY's) Vision to Reality (Post made in SOL before the 10th Oct. 08)

 

In line with our (Thierry, Xiin et al.) school of thought, and its alternative strategic propositions on the way forward out of Somalia's current quagmire, and also in honest support to our mutual friend (in the TFG's Ministry of Foreign Affairs Diplomatic corps), I herein intimate a rejoinder, which I hope will contain additional thoughts in the furtherance and advancement of brother Thierry's topic (entitled: Somali Empire (vision to reality , also posted in Somalia Online politics section). In his write-up, good Theirry has put forth noble ideas, and has sincerely advocated for the consideration of ONE fundamental need, which reasonable men and women of this forum must vitally recognize; that is, if they genuinely desire to undertake the monumental task of ensuring our beleaguered nation's survival, endurance, and potentially, its emergence as a formidable nation or empire in the future. That fundamental NEED which he has so ably highlighted, is that it is each and every Somali's national duty, and responsibility (not to partisan or sectarian politics/clan-ism but) to the transcendent welfare of our peoples, in whichever region they may inhabit.

 

 

As such, he urges us all to be intelligent enough to differentiate between two important things: (1) pursuing a futile short-term war, destined for failure and informed by a super-ego that rejects all efforts of reconciliation at the aggrandizement of the nation, which, on the same token, has only achieved to create daily civilian carnage, suffering and mass displacement, all in the name of a supposed national interest, and; (2) a well considered and conciliatory, strategic plan, driven by the long-term desire to cleverly survive the tricky and dire situation we are in, and spare our nation from a divisive civil war, occupation, and possibly, the bleak reality of total non-existence.

 

Thus, in a nutshell, our good Thierry envisions, and with quite a good qualification and validity, the opportunity beyond the potential hazards of the current political impasse and occupation, pointing us all to catch a hopeful glimpse of the bright horizon of a bigger picture. The BIGGER PICTURE I speak of, which takes a great deal of personal soul-searching to see, is one that animates the reasonable mind to question, interrogate the struggles it currently considers to be vital national interests, and finally PRIORITIZE them into two important categories: (A) risky, violent, fruitless and terminal national struggles that will cost us the very ethnic and territorial existence we seek to protect, which culminates in a Sentimental Struggle (B) opting for (while keeping in mind our current condition of severe limitation in political will, man-power and resources for waging an effective resistance), a long-term strategic plan, well thought out and carefully executed, that guarantees or ensures the nation's ethnic continuation and territorial integrity. Which, in other words, finds its strength in a Sensible Struggle.

 

Category (A) The Hazards of Sentiment

 

Defensive human impulses, have the natural tendency to react violently in resisting the evil of aggression of the other, especially that of occupation. The impulse to resist another's deliberate transgression, the moment we perceive his actions as an insult to our honour, come natural to every Somali man, and surely, both pride and patriotism lend him a righteous hand. Now, considering these natural entitlements to wage a decisive war against the current Ethiopian occupation, it is highly plausible that many well intentioned fighters (of religious and nationalist denominations) in the re-liberation movements, to insist that the only remedy to occupation is nothing but concerted war. These well intentioned brothers and sisters will also assert that the war for re-liberation, is not just merely another unwarranted internal war like others before, but in fact one deservedly justified by a majority national sentiment. And guess what? They are right and I wholeheartedly concur with this assertion.

 

In fact, as everyone in SOL forum is aware of, I am an unflinching supporter of the re-liberation war not only when writing on Somalia, but also I have been, and still am, an active participant in many real life campaigns, demonstrations and organisation ,in an effort to get rid of the tragedy and indignity of occupation, which has been callously visited upon my nation. But I must honestly admit that all my activism, and that of many others, have been solely driven by an emotional, nationalistic and religious 'sentiment' and not much sense. Of course I acknowledge that sentiment is good, and very important at this junction of our history, but what is equally important is, that sentiment is only side of the coin when it comes to undertaking an effective and successful struggle. Especially in a struggle as important as the current one.

 

The other side of the coin, I believe, is unmistakably 'sensibility'. While sentiment is crucial in uniting and emotionally motivating the entire populace to concerted action against injustice, without the guidance of sensibility on the part of leaders, sentiment is prone to short-sightedness, which would certainly lead us into pitfalls. Thus, what is currently needed is a presence of 'vision' in a leadership that sensibly plans for the country's long-term, strategic goals. There is absolutely nothing to be gained from sentimentally, which, although good in its own way, is insufficient in the face of many practical difficulties that hinder or reduce the effectiveness of the war for re-liberation. I believe these practical problems have been evolving for a long time, and not overcoming them means ineffectiveness and failure. What we must consider is that:

 

• Historically, we currently live in a period of time in which we have been severely weakened by a twenty year old civil, making us the most vulnerable nation of today's world. And Ethiopia, as a state that has always followed and monitored our general social conditions for centuries, waiting for the right opportunity to invade, has used our self-inflicted vulnerability and occupied us. Additionally, our long-standing clan hatred and antagonisms have given Ethiopia the golden opportunity to territorially dismantle our country into fiefdoms. Thus, fighting Ethiopia, while the country is in this dire state, becomes that much more difficult and even the sentiment of 99% of our people now seems to be in vein. And it is for this reason that we must now critically plan for an alternative route to re-liberation.

   

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• The other difficulty that also faces us is in nature global, in that were we to hope that global sentiment would be sympathetic to our cause for we are the wronged party, that doesn't seems to be the case. If anything, global sentiment appears to be working in our disadvantage. Why? Because the United States and Ethiopia have made sure of that.

   

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• The third obstacle we must contend with is internal to us as Somalis, in that there already exist many irreparable splits within the movement of the re-liberation front. As brother Thierry has already touched on in one of his posts, there are multiple fronts in the re-liberation movement, some of which (Khalid Bin Walid) coming into existence as recent as three weeks ago. These fronts now total 10, and we are still counting. The older fronts include the different wings of Al-Shabaab (Mogadishu and the Jubbas group), the former UIC (Asmara and Djibouti group), The Jubba Islamic Brotherhood Movement, various Nationalist groupings and so on and so forth. And what is now common knowledge is that these groups or wings follow very different and conflicting approaches in their fight for re-liberation. The main religious wings, such as the UIC and Al-Shabaab, see each other as sworn enemies, let alone their views towards other non-religious and nationalist fronts. These religious wings are increasingly becoming hostile to each other, and further splits or division within them cannot be ruled out. A case in point is the recent creation of Khalid Bin Walid group, whose very aim of formation is said to be a rejection of Al-Shabaab's unilateral closure of Mogadishu Airport. The Khalid Bin Walid group have recently declared that their main objective is to fight, not against Ethiopian occupiers, but to counter Al-Shabaab's monopoly on command and, possibly, violence. So, if that is all it takes another group or front to form, then I must ask you, isn't the situation becoming so chaotic as to expect more catastrophic wars all over again? I hope not.

   

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• Another equally serious problem is related to the above point (3), and concerns the future consequences of ever increasing fronts making impossible the joint agreement to table alternative rule of law in post-occupation Somalia. If Ethiopia is successfully defeated and driven out of the country, then the question is, what awaits Somalia that will find itself under multiple factional controls within compartmentalized territories? Another bout of twenty or fourty year old ideological civil way? Such a future is what worries me most, even more than the current TFG and Ethiopian occupiers. Now, at the present time, what we must start planning for is the sort of structural frameworks for stability and governance will be in place in post-occupation Somalia. I strong hold the view that it was our failure to plan ahead is what has led us into civil war, before even Siad Bare was ousted from power. And surely, that mistake has precipitated current Ethiopian occupation. Do we wish to repeat the same mistake? I hope not. As someone who has put a great deal of thought and effort into gaining some insight into our current condition, and the prospects of the future that awaits our nation, my advice is this: be visionary, think beyond today in order to catch a glimpse of the bigger picture while still paying attention to history.

   

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• Another dangerous precedent that flows from our previous failures or mistakes of thinking ahead, concerns what I would call the 'lost generation of the war'. this means, the thousands of youths that were born in Somalia during the years of 1991 to the present, who, their short lifetimes, have not known only war and its strife. This generation, which has no tangible social knowledge or social school and semblance of governance structures, have previously fallen prey to warlords and we used to fan the flame of clan-based war. The fact that this generation was a major factor in the continuation of the civil war is not their fault; the fault lies elsewhere I believe. However, during the rise of the UIC and, subsequently, the Al-Shabaab, the radical indoctrination of these youths has dramatically increased, taking a different religious orientation. Thus, this marks the advent of mass radicalization in the fight ( previously) against the warlords, (and now) the TFG and Ethiopian occupiers. Personally, I don't see such radicalization as a problem, if these youths will at later times be institutionalized and absorbed into a future post-occupation state apparatus. But such an institutionalization can not altogether be guaranteed, as there exist future strategic plans to do so. Thus, if such plans are not quickly put in place, then in post-occupation Somalia, we will certainly be in for the continuation of civil. What makes that likely is that it is presently observable that some religiously radicalized youths, and their minders, seem apprehensive toward comprise in reconciling with their fellow freedom fighters, even when peace may solely depend on reconciliation. So, what if these youths and their minders insist that, having sacrificed life and limp in liberating Somalia, they will not share the victory with the rest of the re-liberation movements? Should we then expect another face-off between what before use to be 'freedom fighters' at the expense of an already weary nation?

   

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• Last but not least, granted that we overcome all the difficulties I touched on in the above five points, will there a future post-occupation Somalia that is able to survive, for long, the overtures of and interventions of neighbouring countries, and the international community (especially the US)? I hope that we survive and prosper into strong and promising Somalia, amen. But then again, what if it doesn't? Will it not be wise to complete ways to make sure Somalia outlives all its enemies? Think about it. Certainly this is why I and brother Thierry are proposing the acceptance of the Djibouti Reconciliations.

 

CATEGORY (B) The Fortunes of 'Sensibility'

[me]

Thiery,

 

Do not hide behind Paragon come out and answer my direct questions. Man up and take responsibility for your words.

 

1. What benefit will an empire bring the Somali people?

2. Do we (Somalis) not have enough?

3. How can we talk about an empire if we do not even have a state, are you being a comedian here?

 

I did not ask you about US or Mongol empire. I do not care about them or for them, but when you start talking about a Somali Empire my interest grows and many questions arise.

 

Looking at the way you support Sharif Hotel and his call for Ethiopian troops, I am starting to believe you meant to write Ethiopian Empire instead of Somali Empire

[me]

Paragon,

 

What is your answer for J11?

 

Originally posted by J11:

 

....secondly, this war, in essence, is much older than us or even our fathers, its echoes are symbolised by the Ethiopian emperor, Menelik II's plea to his Euro-Christian brothers in 1891, utterring "Ethiopia has been for fourteen centuries a Christian island in a sea of pagans". Funily, by then he didn't categorize Somalis into clans and regions, but for him all Somalis were "Pagans". However, the same emperor's descendants are the ones whom we look upto and hope mercy from, what a pity. Let me not drag you into that area right now but

the fact is once a snake always a snake, and the ethios haven't forgotten about old enmities and grudges, they dwell on the hatred they hold against us.

 

Ethiopia had pursued her on goals inside Somalia and will continue to finish what emperor Haile Sallase described as "The Unfinished Business" that still continues to dominate Ethiopia's strategies, just as it use to be in the days of "Scramble for Africa". Interestingly, when the Europeans scrambled for the rest of Africa, Ethiopia in turn had scrambled for Somalia and her dream to enlarge Abbyssinian empire become true with the help of her christian brothers.

 

What a shame to this day we fail to see this union between Ethios and Europeans, while calling europeans to mediate between us. Either way, what we've read from history books or heard from our parents will be nothing compared to what Ethiopia intends for Somalia. Below is alittle touch of reality and possibilities...

 

Ethiopia's geo-political strategy - Elimi-Nation of Somalis and Somalia from history

 

There is a surety, and all of you have noticed that Somalia has now been divided into fiefdoms, and all these divisions are DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY supported by the Ethiopian regime. Their strategy is to help Somalis seek autonomy from Somalia and form small, militarily ineffective regional governments that adhere to Ethiopian political and cultural ideology, whilst at the same time infiltrating our traditional values with an imposition of Ethiopian models of livelihood. This way the substance of the culture would be undermind by the strong ethio-influences, germinating from several places such as media and

presence of a state that is client to Ethiopia. The outcome is deadly, or may i say THE END OF SOMALINESS.

When a war of this level is waged against an entire de-centralised society, the result is erosion of basic principles that enforce law and order.

 

The foundation is already being set for this kind of war. Statistically, many households in the provinces that neighbour Ethiopia, there is an employment of many ETHIOPIAN housemaids, who are likely to influence the mental growth of our offsprings; making them familiar with ethiopian values. So far, this is the most worrying factor, it is a war for the hearts and minds of the local Somalis. And as globalization spreads, ethiopia is likey to be successful in spreading her war in ways we wont be able to notice. It is not a wonderment to see a decline of patrioticism within Somalis because we're being systematically targetted by not only Ethiopia but by also the christian world. Insofar, it hasn't been dificult to figure out why so many Somalis are being shipped out of refugee camps in kenya and other neibouring countries.

 

The reasons of shipments of such a large number of Somalis only constitute what some call "a historical ideological war", which as a result would make more Somalis become adaptive to western values, and it is more likely that we would see many Somalis relating to western (christian)values, which creates a possible increase of ethio-sympathetics in Somalia. By the time many of us go back to Somalia, there surely would be a clash of ideology. What threats Ethiopia poses cannot be comprehended by one or two writtings, but hopefully I wish you see things from my my angle once.

Original post

[xiinfaniin]

Waa markay Ethiopia ku waalan jirtey

 

Me you are the problem, NOT Ethiopia. Care to explain why you oppose reason and support alshabaab, who tells the world that they have capacity to topple the admin in the State of Alaska?

[me]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

Waa markay Ethiopia ku waalan jirtey

 

Me you are the problem, NOT Ethiopia. Care to explain why you oppose reason and support alshabaab, who tells the world that they have capacity to topple the admin in the State of Alaska?

Xiinfiniin,

 

Waalan jirtey? Ma sidan baa kuu danbaysay?

 

I do not support Al Shabab, however I believe that they are a necessary evil.

 

For more on that see this thread.

 

For this thread let us stick to this so called Thiery-Xiin-Paragon School of thought that on one hand calls for Ethiopian invasion on the other hand speaks for Somali Empire.

 

I am interested to know where this doublethink comes from.

[me]

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[xiinfaniin]

Me, adeer do not waste your time debating about building Somali Empire. This is not the time to have such a debate. If it makes you happy count me out of such a lofty idea. There are matters that are more worthy of discussion, if you can spare the time. Your stance on alshabaab is one of them.

 

Unfortunately the thread you referred to me does not give me much to work with. In this thread you have the chance to tell us what aspect of alshabaab’s policies you support and what aspect you oppose?

 

Is it their political platform you support? Their harsh methods of killing and maiming those they deem the enemy? The silly, meaningless bravado broadcasting that they will conquer the world including the furthest tip Alaska? I don’t like when one shrink from making a clear and discernible stance.

 

What do you mean necessary evil? Is there such a thing? If we in a moment of sensation allow ourselves to entertain such an alternative, tell us how we might reform the evil or when it becomes unnecessary?

[Paragon]

Me, the strangest thing of all is that it was 2003 that I made that prediction. The was almost 3 years before Ethiopian tanks rolled into the centre of Mogadishu.

 

And gues who who brought the Ethiopians into Mogadishu? Al-Shabaab! The very childish group you currently support! They brought the Ethiopians and one way or another we (Xiin, Theiry, North and I who support the Sharif) saw the departure of Ethiopia as the biggest price and opportunity for fruitful peace in Somalia. But the Al-Shabaab wanted Ethiopians to remain in Somalia forever. Their very existence and purpose depends on Ethiopian presence in Somalia. And the shame is you support them without knowing ounce about this truth.

 

In 2003 I warned against Ethiopia. I was distressed with the potential of Somali elimination, and for the grace of Allah the Ethiopia were made to leave without implimenting their evil schemes. But they have done some damage and WE NEED TO REPAIR THIS DAMAGE without adding more damage to the one unleashed by the 20 year old civil war. However Al-Shabaab is thirsty for more blood. Blood is Al-Shabaab's very oxygen for survival. Blood specially when it's split while they can say we're fighting for Somalia. In truth they are killing Somalia. Waa 'daawac-tir'.

 

Today, almost 5 years since the warning alarm I have sounded against Ethiopia, Al-Shabaab is calling for Ethiopians to come into Mogadishu. The AS are just boys who miss playing their nintendo games. And you, knowing not better are a victim of your mind's inability to adapt to new life-saving approaches to life, and somewhat handicaped to predict and choose the better option among many. To think only one way is truthfully most tragic, and at last a terminal project.

 

What has happened has happened. What cannot happen cannot happen. You have only option: what can happen. Then if you are clever and shrewd enough you must focus on this last option and think wisely and make the best of what will inevetably happen, and make sure the end product is what you really think is best for the very people and country you claim you love so much.

 

We are all spectators in all that is happening in Somalia but we have a choice on how we approach. We can either be sentimental about it or sensible.

 

The choice is yours.

[xiinfaniin]

Mee Me?

 

War ma ii maqantahay?

[Thierry.]

Me, Thierry never hides and has answered all your questions, but since you have a problem reading I will have to repeat what I said.

 

Q1. Somali people will benefit enormously from having an empire (collective bargaining, global policy making, wealth creation, favourable trading conditions etc.). It is like running a small business one doesn’t aspire to pay the bills he aspires to become a Multinational corporation.

 

Q2. This question is irrelevant, if you mean Once Somalis are united we should be contempt I am an ambitious man and if there is room for expansion I would favour such policy.

 

Q3. Saxiib you are the one talking about the Somali empire and dragged me into this discussion, forget even dealing with Puntland and Somaliland I only discuss the real danger on the ground Al Shabaab who are hell bent on destroying the government.

 

Now tell me how you a man who champions secularism believe Al Shabaab are in your best interest, do you think Somali will become France once Al Shabaab take over

[me]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

Mee Me?

 

War ma ii maqantahay?

Xiinow,

 

Ma kuu maqni. Baribaad balo ahayd lakiin maanta aduunyada lama socotid, sidaa daraadeed ixtiraam inlagu siiyo ayaad istaahishaa.

 

Sidii oday gaboobay oo soo tabcay, marka uu soo daalo gambarka waa looga kacaa.

[me]

Originally posted by Thierry.:

Q3. Saxiib you are the one talking about the Somali empire and dragged me into this discussion,

So I started this topic and added Somali empire to the title? I dragged you into this discussion?

 

Waan gartay.