President Abdullahi Yusuf meets with UNDP representative!

[NGONGE]

LIQAYE,

Great and almost logical speech there, saaxib. I almost pushed my chair back and stood up applauding. Still, there is a tiny problem with your logic. I can’t understand how you could admit that this government is corrupt on the one hand yet you also could easily brush that aside and expect miracles on the other!

 

The question you keep asking and use as proof to the futility of the position of those opposing this government is ‘what next’! Well, shouldn’t that question apply to your stance too? What next for Yusuf and co?

 

Again, I asked Caamir this question on a previous post and I repeat it here to you. The TFG is not new. They’ve been here for the past TWO YEARS and we all have seen how incompetent, objectionable and clueless they have been. Today, they’re on the ascendancy thanks to Ethiopian and American support. A support that neither Geedi nor Yusuf can really take credit for. It is after all down to American and Ethiopian convenience/interest rather than the TFG’s great political know-how and shrewdness.

 

I could only guess that your position (unlike that of Duke’s and Horn’s) is to support the lesser evil. However, today, in Somali politics, there really isn’t a lesser evil. Just because a Somali president finally managed to establish himself in the capital and stumbled upon some foreign strength to allow him to maintain his position does NOT mean that all the old problems have vanished. Could the TFG erase these problems? Could it solve them? Only a foolish or an eternal optimist of a man could reply YES to this question. In which case, most observers would not regard him as such but will (with some justification) assume that he’s only toeing the clannish line (see Horn’s tantalising support of his uncle or Duke’s inflexible belief in Yeey!).

 

If you’re really trying to be reasonable, neutral and only have Somalia’s best interest at heart you certainly would not be giving the TFG your full and unquestionable support and would rather be asking even louder questions than those being asked by the ICU’s fans. Having said that, I actually have no doubt that all sides THINK their way is the best way forward for Somalia, only the Somalia most of you talk about is the one that ensures your people come first.

 

As long as you blindly support the TFG, ICU or whatever comes next you really are in no position to lecture others on what is good or proper. Take the tinted shades off and then maybe you’ll be in a position good enough to see the carnage for what it is.

[Liqaye]

How things do change, is that you Rahima?

 

How I remember when some of us used to jump to your defence whenever some on these forums attempted to drag your well argued well thought out posts into the qabilistic nonsenical cesspit still thriving on S.O.L and now you chose to jump in with both feet, being more generously incoherent than what the likes of Mobb deep used to write, but atleast mobb deep was funny and in the end immensly likeable and you could always agree to disagree whereas your statements are merely self righteous.

 

Brother Castro we agree more than we disagree, we agree that this goverment is no goverment anybody with even a modicum of conscience recongnized this as soon as the way M.P's would be choosen was first aired and published that this is the fruits from the tree planted in mbagathi does not suprise me.

Lakin,

the question that is still on the table is the same recognizing what this goverment is what is the alternative, please please will any one oblidge? this is not a rhetorical question I have avidly read CG's thoughts, xiinfaniin as well and caught glimpses of possibilities from other peoples posts, unforntunately they have been found wanting, either they involve bloodshed, or they are utopian but I see the good intentions behind the ideas expressed unfortunately good intentions is not the be all and end all.

 

Living in kenya for a while, I saw with my own eyes how things change, from a rigid one party state to one that is opening up and till the political space is so large that the goverment sponsored constitution was roundly defeated in a referendum did not lead to mass arrests or the poisoning of wells of communities that did not support the goverment, it was a long process but in the end what enabled it to happen was the fact that Kenyans refused to turn to the bullet being neighbours of 4 african countries that were time or another at war they came to the conclusion that time was on the side of the general population.

 

A goverment that does not have the support of the people will not last, the T.F.G is feeling smug but their end will come today or eventually when it expires under the weight of its own excrement, but that process should be as bloodless as possible is what concerns me.

That the goverment should be toppled under the full weight of civic action, union strikes, mass rallies, political losses all of these things is what can do it eventually yes but for a moment think outside the box and realise that the alternative is not a movement but another cabal of warlords.

 

For all of the above to happen we need structures and mechanisms, however corrupt,skewered or nominal, even the outlines of judiciaries and ministries is what is needed to topple this goverment from its position other wise in place of these constraints the people will turn to what they know best namely qabil to protect and futher their intreasts.

 

Brothers you have to realise that this road will be tortous and ardous, but as people get educated

[ in deen as well for the religious in the manner of what the muslim brotherhood is doing in Eygpt] and engaging in activities that make politics not so much life and death but one that scaremongering politicos can not keep the ultimately pragamtic and sensible somalis from making the right desicion.

 

An example of this is in somaliland, for a moment let us view them as not a seccesionist entity but a group of somalis attempting to govern themselves although at the moment Mr.Riyaale has delved in to his past to pull out all the old siadist tricks to keep himself in power the people of somaliland have a parliament with an oppsition however fractitious and an election system that gives them the best chance to vote him out, indeed if he were to win again only with 80 votes afforded to him by that famous ballot box in berbera, the voices urging violence to unseat would few and far between, why can that same thought process be one shared by all somalis, that Riyaale will go in this election or the next is not in question simmilarly that the people of waqooyi do not want to shed blood pass throygh isbaroos or pockmark the walls of hargeisa hotel is also not in question.

 

In the end most of us have the same goals, but I urge the posters in S.O.L the preeminent somali forum where even the likes of the guardian visit to collate the views of somalis to for once not follow opinion but set it.

 

Finally I will tell you what sort of goverment we will have in 10 years, not in the sophisticated theoretical manner of a baashi, oodweyne or sophist but clearly in how it will appear to the somali people.

The president will of the wrong clan

The prime minister will be of the wrong clan

The parliament will have a crasser beviary of polticians and law makers for higher to the highest bidder,

and a significant part of the populace will be pissed, but there are shall be ways and means of changing this rather than waiting to get shot by a moryaan who turns out to be your neighbours brother.

[Liqaye]

Brother ngonge my first post will be a response for both you and Castro as I was writing it up you posted yours.

 

But consider what I say following is a clearer exposition to you.

 

Ngonge said:

 

"I could only guess that your position (unlike that of Duke’s and Horn’s) is to support the lesser evil. However, today, in Somali politics, there really isn’t a lesser evil. Just because a Somali president finally managed to establish himself in the capital and stumbled upon some foreign strength to allow him to maintain his position does NOT mean that all the old problems have vanished. Could the TFG erase these problems? Could it solve them? Only a foolish or an eternal optimist of a man could reply YES to this question. In which case, most observers would not regard him as such but will (with some justification) assume that he’s only toeing the clannish line (see Horn’s tantalising support of his uncle or Duke’s inflexible belief in Yeey!)."

 

Firstly if you read my posts sequentially you would understand that I do not support it, I view it as the sacrifical lamb brother that shall eventually be executed to expiate the sins of the people, but all I ask is that people wait until it is truly a worthy sacrifice.

 

The T.F.G will do nothing it will haphazardl;y collect taxes, it ministers shall enjoy foreign junkets and its M.P's shall ululate to whoever shall be the political flavour of the moment, brother Ngonge that I see this clearly it is a fact, and as much as my word means anything, that it disgusts me is also a fact!

 

But my view is from another angle, there are many differing schools of political thought mine is simple the people do it not the goverment, in somaliland and puntland do you think brother these entites would have survived if it were not for the ardent wish of the people would prevail, the wish to bring about change how ever neccesary peacefully?

 

Would a 25 million budget have been enough to maintain a semblance of staehood and governance how ever comical or illusionary in waaqoyi and Bari?

 

No brother I KNOW that the T.F.G will do DE NADA for somalia, but it will do the one thing that is needed to do anything in somalia, be it change the qabilism and corruption rampant or to the honest boors change this current crop of bastar*ds with another from your own divine/multitufinous/royalty/powerfull clan, a goverment would have a monopoly on violence.

 

How ever corrupt the police is atleast the man charging you extra wears a uniform, atleast he has a superior that you can eiother beg/cajole/bribe to change his ways.

 

The city council will be corrupt but when you finally get them to dig a pipe a to your house you will not have to pay 30 people to do it because the road in question belongs to rer qansax and bisecting it with out the inevitable cash would be a mortal outrage to the very armed and very high representatives of rer qansax.

 

If it is a question of a lesser evil..well it is still an evil that can be stomached by the overwhelming majiority of somalis actually faced with the dilemma.

 

That I PRAY FOR THIS GOVERMENT to undestand this simple truism namely that they can do what ever they want as long as I can drive to bossaso from kismayoo with the occasional bribe to a uniformed policeman who will at most impound my car, rather than 20 diffrent sets of moryaans who would use me as target practise is a prayer shared by most somalis.

 

This to you might Deem a weak kneed argument, but this is the sort of goverment practised all over africa, and I pray that how ever long it takes to remove not Abdillahi yusuf alone but those who think like him [ which is the entire cast of characters at the moment] it should be done via mass protests rather than mass killings, which is which ever way you cut it what will happen in somalia as an alternative to the T.F.G.

[Paragon]

Based on the 4.5 tribal formula; a parliament consisting of men hell-bent on war; that has invited foreign troops into Somalia, I say, this only indicates that the tfg is the continuation of war by other means.

[Qandalawi]

^^No sense at all

[Paragon]

^^We shall see.

[Castro]

Liqaye, what of the pink elephant in the middle of the room? And if you don't know what that is, I'm not gonna read any more of your Oodweyne-style posts.

[Qandalawi]

^^By your eyes or hear with your ears? Coz unless you claim to have magic powers, you won't see anything happening in Somalia...

[Liqaye]

Brother paragon war by other means, any war that does not include the stray bullet, the bullet that drills a hole into the head of the guy you just beat in a game of dominoes 4 minutes before while you were in the loo is the war I PREFER.

[Paragon]

LIQAYE:

No brother I KNOW that the T.F.G will do DE NADA for somalia, but it will do the one thing that is needed to do anything in somalia, be it change the qabilism and corruption rampant or to the honest boors change this current crop of bastar*ds with another from your own divine/multitufinous/royalty/powerfull clan, a goverment would have a monopoly on violence.

That kills your entire argument. Qabiilism doing away within qabiilism? My dear friend, Liqaye, that is a flawed reasoning. Alternatives are separate to what is seen as the problem. If Somalia's problem was qabiilism-based, how do you treat her illness with the same virus that had infected her to begin with? You need a remedy, which the tfg is not.

 

Speaking of corruption and what not, in regards to the tfg is quite ironic! How the hell does one find the personal qualities that eredicate corruption in the very persons who've sold the country's interest for their own personal gains! What sort of logic are you employing, Liqaaye? If you thought only corruption was rampant, add treason or high crime of the tfg to the list.

 

Brother, we need other alternatives than the TFG, I tell you. I believe there is an alternative and I will make it know soon as possible. But please don't tell us the tfg would deal with the country's problems; it'll only inflame them even more. Right now, or an hour or so ago, there have been a shoot-out between Qanyare's bodyguards and C/Y clan militia over where to park a techniko vehecle, which results almost 9 deaths and many other wounded. So, tell me how these two individuals can become an alternative for Somalia?

[Liqaye]

Brother castro most respectfully I have had enough, before coming to xamar as many people would attest I would have torn you a new well a new thing lower than the colon if my high school biology serves me right, would have loved nothing but to spar with you on every question and every other issue of that particular day, right now I just want to make it clear to you that those who ask for a clear exposition of the alternatives have a right not to be ridiculed only but however patronisingly told the wherefores.

 

Maybe the pink elephant is the fact that a goverment of warlords has been put in place by ethiopians.

 

That that is a

low

down

dirty

shame is evident.

 

That I will use all the little at my disposal to the end of unseating this goverment PEACEFULLY even if I see that happen 10 or 20 years from now.

 

It will be unfortunate that you might choose not to answer my posts for your posts are emminently readable, but that shall confirm somethings to me and to those who read this thread.

 

Finally I feel odd that my posts are compared to oodweynes I felt that his posts are intreasting but are written in an unimitiable style indeed in one I would not wish to imitate.

 

Me being compared to oodweine

 

Who would have thunk the day will come.

[Liqaye]

Paragon said:

 

That kills your entire argument. Qabiilism doing away within qabiilism? My dear friend, Liqaye, that is a flawed reasoning. Alternatives are separate to what is seen as the problem. If Somalia's problem was qabiilism-based, how do you treat her illness with the same virus that had infected her to begin with? You need a remedy, which the tfg is not.

 

Speaking of corruption and what not, in regards to the tfg is quite ironic! How the hell does one find the personal qualities that eredicate corruption in the very persons who've sold the country's interest for their own personal gains! What sort of logic are you employing, Liqaaye? If you thought only corruption was rampant, add treason or high crime of the tfg to the list.

 

Brother, we need other alternatives than the TFG, I tell you. I believe there is an alternative and I will make it know soon as possible. But please don't tell us the tfg would deal with the country's problems; it'll only inflame them even more. Right now, or an hour or so ago, there have been a shoot-out between Qanyare's bodyguards and C/Y clan militia over where to park a techniko vehecle, which results almost 9 deaths and many other wounded. So, tell me how these two individuals can become an alternative for Somalia?

We agree brother that The T.F.G will not help somalia in any way, that is not the meaning of my post.

 

Again I repeat for all those that are merely skimming my posts, the people are the final judges, but the people today and tommorow and for a long while are also diseased, warlords forced themselves on somalis as armed qabilists, if there were free and fair election today there would be eloquent qabilists at the head.

 

The diffrence is that the ram chooses his excutioner.

 

But I will refrain from futher comments until I see what you have as that alternative indeed I wait with bated breath.

[Gabbal]

Originally posted by Castro:

^ You got it all wrong atheer. They attack me for my good looks.

Not least of all. I do believe you dropped the ball before you had even picked it up.

 

Sorry.

[Castro]

^ I've got no time for you. Move along.

 

Originally posted by LIQAYE:

Me being compared to oodweine

Ok, so that was unfair. The pink elephant yaa Liqaye is the occupation. You see, I don't believe for a moment A/Y and his cabal have the strategic wherewithal to convince Ethiopia to invade. Ethiopia needed two things: an excuse to invade and stooges to give them some level of legitimacy, however small. They found the former in some of the rhetoric coming from the ICU and the latter in this puppet regime. That's all water under the bridge now.

 

All the milk and honey scenarios you elucidate, and with which any decent person must agree, won't happen until the occupation is gone. And by GONE I mean it and all its stooges are gone. One cannot make a fox the keeper of the hen house. No matter how bad things could get, simply having the fox keep the keys to the hen house is inherently flawed. Even worse, the shameless fox doesn't even try to tell us he's anything but a fox. He's flaunting the fact that he is everywhere he turns.

 

The alternative? Put up with them for a decade or two, you say? Well, let's see. What can happen in a decade or two? In a decade or two we went from a brutal dictatorship to anarchy to clan fiefdoms to "semi-autonomous" regions to a semblance (albeit brief but popular) form of governance in the ICU. Essentially, we've gone around a circle but not all the way through, yet. Are you telling me the culmination of all that has happened is to be satisfied with an occupying force trying to install some of the most miserable characters this nation has ever produced? Come on atheer.

 

And what makes you think a puppet regime that is so easily willing to ride on the backs of foreign invaders today will allow you to "peacefully" unseat it in a decade or two.

 

I don't know what the best way forward is. This puppet regime is not it.

[Gabbal]

I would hope then, you do not try to throw stones knowing the glass your facade is made from.