Should Puntland declare independance if the Kenya talks fail?

[BN]

New-Nation,

That's an interesting idea. But I don't think the people of the NW/NC/NE are ready for that.

 

Well the peoples of Puntland have the option to seperate from Somalia. But I don't think there is the current will to do so as there might be in the NW. I would not be opposed to a referendum to decide the future of Puntland. It took a while for the people of the NE/NC Somalia to pressure their leaders to form a regional government during the 1990's and I think it will take a similar grassroots movement before the Puntland government will consider such a course of action. But currently the population supports a Federal solution for Somalia. And the current talks in Kenya will hopefully succeed. At least the new Federal Gov setup in Kenya will recognize existing regional states and allow them to officially deal with International Organizations, companies, and hopefully setup recognized banks/institutions that are able to deal with the outside world.

 

Salaam

 

P.S. Didn't the Puntland Charter of 1998 call for the creation of a regional flag? And anthem? Has that been changed? Or did the government just get lazy....

[Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar]

Salaan...

 

What a dismal and sad thread!

 

A lot of folks in this thread are a bit laba-wajiiliyaal. While simultaneously undermining the sovereign aspiration of Soomaaliland, they can even entertain the "independent" movement where their respective clans live, not defending the Soomaali integrity and unity.

 

I thought nationalists were/are nationalists no matter what, and ready to defend the national issues, no exceptions made. Alas, it isn't that way always.

 

Hiding behind the Soomaaliyeey Toosooy garment, they can even--God forbid--want to disintegrate what is left of Soomaaliya now, let alone kuwii dhumay in lasoo celiyo.

 

I do realize now some individuals do really care and advocate their qabiils more than Soomaalinimo.

 

Once again, unfortunately, the adage "my qabiil" over Soomaaliya rules in this case. Sad, but too true to know.

 

What is next? My "mundul" and "tuulo" should declare independence??? Two tuulo will have two different passports and shilins.

________________

 

Macsalaama.

[Blessed]

Originally posted by Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar:

Salaan...

 

What a dismal and sad thread!

 

A lot of folks in this thread are a bit

laba-wajiiliyaal

. While simultaneously undermining the sovereign aspiration of Soomaaliland, they can even entertain the "independent" movement where their respective clans live, not defending the Soomaali integrity and unity.

 

I thought nationalists were/are nationalists no matter what, and ready to defend the national issues, no exceptions made. Alas, it isn't that way always.

looooooool. I was waiting months and months for some one to say that. I suppose to some people the integrity of Somaliweyn is only an issue when it involves Somaliland. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

Either respect the wishs of Sland to be an independent state - or kala hadalka joojiya!

[BN]

MMA/Ameenah,

 

It's one thing to be a Somali nationalists, but to what extent? Will you force it down the throats of people weather they like it or not? Will you start a war to realize the aim of a united Somalia? Will you whip out an entire group who oppose your vision and want to leave? What price are we willing to pay for Somali Unity? How much blood will be shed? That's what I have been thinking about lately.

 

 

In a previous thread(which I started) I said I personally would not mind if the NW people left the union of Somalia--IF the majority of their people wanted to do so. But I don't support them taking everyone else in the former British colony with them! The reason why the claim all of British Somaliland is because it gives them some political ground to stand on. A future Somali government should give the people of the NW a choice in their own future--weather to stay or leave. There is a difference between support for self determination in the NW and support for "Somaliland".

 

P.S. MMA "Mr. Mog", am I now a two-faced NW qabilist? Or were you just ranting again?

[Miskin]

For Puntlanders, i dont think you have to defend Puntland as action speaks louder than words if you know what i mean.

 

as for the independence saga i personally dont see the point of that coz Puntland is a rolemodel for the rest of Somalia for its relative peace and tranquility.

[Blessed]

It's one thing to be a Somali nationalists, but to what extent? Will you force it down the throats of people weather they like it or not? Will you start a war to realize the aim of a united Somalia? Will you whip out an entire group who oppose your vision and want to leave? What price are we willing to pay for Somali Unity? How much blood will be shed? That's what I have been thinking about lately.

lol@ you should be directing this to the 'lovely' guraad and pal-talk. Their 'we will gun fight Somaliland into unity' sentiments had me laughing walaahi. Kills the whole principle, don't it?

 

Anyway, walaal. It seems that you and me are on the same chapter now. I suppose you've been listening to what some nomads have been trying to tell ya'll all along.

 

UNITY is great in principle, but if the people at home choose otherwise you cannot and should not impose it upon them.

 

Somalis do a great deal of talk, laakin they don't follow it with action. People cannot be uited through talks that take place in another country - away from the people that it affects.

 

But I don't support them taking everyone else in the former British colony with them! The reason why the claim all of British Somaliland is because it gives them some political ground to stand on

.

 

Lets not forget that all the elders of the regions that makeup Somaliland agreed to be a part of the independent state in 1991. The government of S.land did not force SS&H into S.land did it?

 

The regional debate between Sland and Puntland is a new one. I agree that it should be resolved and no one group should force the peoople to join their state. Let them decide who they want to be with. and end of discussion.

 

A future Somali government should give the people of the NW a choice in their own future--weather to stay or leave.

See thats the problem, what is Somaliland to do in the mean time? Sit around and wait for this mysterious future government to be formed?

 

Why give up something that already works (Slander had never had it this good) for an idea? Because, if truth is told, right now - Somalia is just an idea - nothing promised, nothing concrete. Shouldn't S.land P.land and other regions continue to better their regions?

 

Oh, just out of curiosity - what do think of Punland and Sland forming one state - would that work?

[Saxardiid]

Ameenah

Oh, just out of curiosity - what do think of Punland and Sland forming one state - would that work?

that was exactly my message if pland to break away from somalia which is understandable the obvious choice is to united with sland since later one has fully functioning democracy and has shared culture, people, tide economy, borders ect. with each other. it also reduces likelihood of future wars in the region. in the meantime we the south try to come up some sort of workable government and will follow your success.

 

SmithNwestern

 

Bro we want a nw Somalia and not the same failed nonsence, we want our state in our country and our capital and our flag and we need not to break up but when I hear ppl like Abdi (run out of time) Qasin I get mad like I wanna

this is the view of most planders and i never come across any plander who is wishing to breakup from somalia. i dont think mr salad and his misfits have any future in any comming nation building cause they excuded from that process with their arrogance and failer to make reality the most ambitious project of the last 13 confereces "the arta project" which i was naively supported for long time.

 

Bari nomad

...But currently the population supports a Federal solution for Somalia.

this is what many somali people support and given the choice they will prove worth it.

wasalam

[guleedyare]

agree 100% what first nation said.

i think is about time that putland and Somaliland to be united

under new Government that is aiming Somalian glory. This will be the first step to accomplish one government one nation one people under one flag. I am against separation whether is somaliland or puntland. A tribe with flag has no place in this world and it is the last option. Also what we need from mogdisho is one man who has ambition and can bring peace to his city then negotiate with leaders of puntland and somaliland not 5 or 6 each man against the other.

wasalaam

[Libaax-Sankataabte]

Originally posted by Ameenah:

Oh, just out of curiosity - what do think of Punland and Sland forming one state - would that work?

Ameenah, my indadeero, welcome back. I know what you did last summer. Don't freak. This is just the name of a movie. London was ok. I guess Barwaaqo did take your word seriously and did help organize a good dinner for your inadeer.

 

Back to the topic,

 

Ameenah, it is always not a bad idea when more Somalis are coming together in some sort of a goverment. But as long as Seeftabanaanka, Faysal Cali Waraabe, and the rest of the militant regionalists, strongmen are alive, such idea might never materialize.

[miles-militis]

Hold your horses there people. Flying off the handle a tad early, are we not?

 

Fundamental Guiding Principles -

The principal notion of self-determination, self-reliance, and self-sufficiency by the people of a nation, of various genre, or cliques forming a nationalistic homeland inclusive in principal are the primary and chief basis for any sustainable entity, it be a nation or an administration that overrides over other concepts, accepted wisdoms or philosophies including that of nationalism, for such principles operate as prerequisites for a nation tenable only after the realisation of identifiable symbol of nationalism representational, thus ingrained in all segments of the assumed communities.

 

Fallacies -

This being the thrust of the argument, the impetus driving the misconception on the part of the individuals speaking of “laba-wajiilayn”, and the nucleus of the matter under discussion, it is paramount to understand the principal difference between the two entities (S/L advocating for a total separation, & P/L seeking new Somalia comprising of autonomous states under federal governmental structure); therefore no right-thinking person on the Puntland camp would oppose to the will and desire of the peoples in the present day Somaliland or Puntland not at least on the basis of a grand premise of the desired object that is of a nation. However, what many on the Puntland camp oppose to is not the notion per se and in itself, but the potent, hastily misguided political miscalculation of Arte style (representing the whole of Somalia) claim by the Hargeysa administration of representing people of S S & Cayn.

 

“ … A lot of folks in this thread are a bit laba-wajiiliyaal. While simultaneously undermining the sovereign aspiration of Soomaaliland, they can even entertain the "independent" movement where their respective clans live, not defending the Soomaali integrity and unity” MMA

 

The mire of the matter is this: could the 3 regions that make up the present day Somaliland decide the fate of the people in other regions outside the Hargeysa realm? The simple answer is a big NO. And this is where we seem to differ in opinion. Mind you the same dilemma would be confronted by the Garowe administration had they put forth a proposal of this nature, and region(s) were to adopt a “ney” vote with their feet.

 

“ …looooooool. I was waiting months and months for some one to say that. I suppose to some people the integrity of Somaliweyn is only an issue when it involves Somaliland. Either respect the wishs of Sland to be an independent state - or kala hadalka joojiya!” Ameenah.

 

Puntland State not Republic -

As for the case of Puntland, first and for most, neither the Puntland government nor people have the intention or desire to separate from the rest of Somalia as such effort is viewed impractical for obvious reasons. This does not mean there not to be internal voices, though nominal and minority in number and in principal, advocating for such bold, injurious move. It is my belief that such voices shall gain momentum, thus shall become more prevalent and alluring so long as the condition in other regions (southern) continues to remain as is. For those of you who seem to be under that impression, may I advise you to please review this academic study of the state’s constitution - http://radiogalkayo.com/repeating/remarks.php , or better yet re-visit state constitutions (1998 and 2001).

 

However, as and when the people of Puntland reach that point, though it will be a very hard sell by the leadership to the people, I reckon it shall remain up to the people to determine their destiny, and what they consider to be in their best interest. Having said that, the leadership is very much adamant and shall not accept anything short of new Somalia bringing together the once 18 regions but under a federal governmental structure – please read this press release to understand the position and political motives of the administration - http://www.somaliaonline.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000540

 

It ought to be noted that it took over 5 years from the moment the conceptual framework of creating an autonomous region in Northeast had been proposed by the leadership in 1993 to when it actually gained momentum in 1998 birthing the inception of the Puntland regional administration in acceptance by the populace in the regions concerned. As drastic events tend to lead to more radical decision making and thinking, who is to say the public will not have reached at the end of its tether should the present peace process, though highly unlikely, was to fall on its face in manner of speaking.

 

Puntland and Somaliland –

As for the issue concerning the unity of Somaliland and Puntland which is not a new initiative as some might have suggested has been put on the table as far back as in late 1999 under the auspices of the UN – please refer to this articles which simply touches the initiative under which both administrations were prepared at one time to consider the option - http://yamayska.com/maqaalo/news_item.asp?NewsID=27 . The creation of the Arte TNG had not only dwarfed this and other positive reconciliatory endeavours, but threw the whole country into dismal array which deteriorated to a political crisis in Puntland, precipitation of the isolation of the Somaliland administration to the outskirts of Hargeysa, and the total disruption and the eradication of the Southwest institution building endeavour to oblivion. What has not been discussed openly but proposed sometime in the past was the possibility of joining Southwest (RRA Riviera) to the amalgamation of the northern states in a due process sort of manner, a prerequisite of which was the formation of a shared political leadership in the northern states. The intent here was to implement an indigenous federalist system of government without the involvement of external influence and to also bring an order to Banadir region and its environs in a slow, an un-intimidating fashion. I trust we shall never know what that would have been the outcome as the plan never saw the light of day thanks to the inept multi-billion dysfunctional organisation sponsoring the Arte TNG - that is of the UN and its agencies. And if one wishes to explore the conditions and how far the parliamentarians committees assigned to study the initiative had gone between the two administrations (Egal & Yussuf), reach for the pencil as I shall be receptive to a discussion.

 

Nation or Clique -

MMA – the suggestion of people favouring “clique” in lieu of “nation” is simply not as unfortunate as you might reckon. An observation of any society, socially advanced or otherwise, would present you with similar paradoxes in terms that societies had always favoured the existence of local identifiable mechanism in lieu of distant rather obscure machinery of governance. Pick any society of your choice and I shall point out contradictions in terms and of sorts. Somalis are no different in that regard though rather complex due to the present conditions. What is worrying to me though is an observation of mine which I am certain will meet with a disagreement: the ensued tribal and civil was that resulted from the collapse of the Somali state and the reason that close to 1/3 of Somalis are in dismal state of refugeedom in foreign lands is because of the tribal war that had gone wrong. Now, that being the case, why is it that the majority of Somalis (reading) to this day could not bring themselves to accept the role of tribalism, clan identity, and clan politics which had been proven to suit and work in the case of S/L & P/L instead of entertaining grandiose ideologies not in their training? I am as always seeking someone who could address that question in its simplistic format. A culture of denial and identity calamity precipitated by failure to understand the root cause and nature of the predicament on sight is noticed amongst the learnt Somalis. One would have thought that after a decade of social evolution a more realistic, and not romantic, rationale would have brought about a change in mode of approaching issues of concern. Or could I be mistaken?

 

One must not overlook the simple fact that “nations” are made up of “cliques” in harmony, and without the existence of harmony amongst cliques, never shall there be a nation of which peoples or communities are in harmony.

 

Unsavoury Arte factor –

I sure would like to address the issue with the pseudo-nationalists (formerly henchmen of the Barre regime – presently Arte TNG) which seem to bewilder the pro-secessionist camp on the Somaliland corner who seem unable to distinguish the motives of a true nationalist from Puntland as opposed to a dubious Arte fan - perhaps another day.

 

I shall leave there for the day,

 

Cheers.

[Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar]

Salaan...

 

Originally posted by Bari_Nomad:

MMA "Mr. Mog", am I now a two-faced NW qabilist? Or were you just ranting again?

Perhaps I will be a three-faced fellow too that I will support Xamar alone declaring sovereignty.

 

Widaay, seriously though, I honestly thought nationalists should have always passionately defend the consecrated and sacrosant national unity, with no exceptions made. However, in this thread, some people took their macaawiis off and showed their three legs bluntly.

 

I don't support any group with any cause of lamentation with any separation of any kind of degree to my beloved nation--imagined {in this thread} or real threats {as of in some regions}.

________________

 

Macsalaama.

[BN]

Ameenah,

 

Originally posted by Ameenah:

lol@ you should be directing this to the 'lovely' guraad and pal-talk. Their 'we will gun fight Somaliland into unity' sentiments had me laughing walaahi. Kills the whole principle, don't it?

Have you seen previous posts by Samigurl, Xiis, and other?!?! They are MUCH more extreme in their views.

I suppose you've been listening to what some nomads have been trying to tell ya'll all along.

Maybe some of the more logical members.

 

UNITY is great in principle, but if the people at home choose otherwise you cannot and should not impose it upon them.

Yes, but can you tell me honestly you believe the 97%(99%?) of the 2001 referendum in the NW? I don't think it's accurate measure of the views of people in the former protectorate.

 

Lets not forget that

all

the elders of the regions that makeup Somaliland agreed to be a part of the independent state in 1991.

Let's assume that they did. More recently in 1998 the elders/leadership(USP) from North Central Somalia helped to form the neighboring Autonomous Region of P/L. The people in SS&Cayn because of lack of recognition of S/L, infighting in the NW, lack of resources/reconstruction(concentrated in hargeisa/borama/berbera), political alienation(appointment of Riyaale(Awdal) as VP in 1997) and other reasons, left a large gap between Hargeisa and the Eastern regions--including Togdheer. Something which has gotten worse since Riyaale took power. Whatever faith they might of had in SL 1991 was all but gone by 1998--which helped them to join PL.

 

 

The regional debate between Sland and Puntland is a new one. I agree that it should be resolved and no one group should force the peoople to join their state.

Well it's not a new debate; it's been going on since 1998. Egal condemned the creation of P/L in 1998 in Garowe. It has intensified in recent years.

Let them decide who they want to be with.and end of discussion.

It's ironic. The Hargeisa government talks about "the territorial integrity of Somaliland" while unilaterally seperating from Somalia. They are not giving people in the Eastern region the same rights.

 

 

Oh, just out of curiosity - what do think of Punland and Sland forming one state - would that work?

As LST said it's always good when Somali peoples join together *peacefully*. It would be one step closer to Somali Unity. But the leaderships and peoples seem to have diverging goals at the moment.

 

MMA "Mr. Mog",

 

Instead of making up words( three faced?!?! ) why don't you * try * to answer some of my questions....

 

Originally posted by Bari_Nomad:

It's one thing to be a Somali nationalists, but to what extent? Will you force it down the throats of people weather they like it or not? Will you start a war to realize the aim of a united Somalia? Will you whip out an entire group who oppose your vision and want to leave? What price are we willing to pay for Somali Unity? How much blood will be shed?

[miles-militis]

MMA – could you be good enough as to provide us with your understanding of what “nationalism” entails please? Perhaps then, we shall have been in a better position to engage in a healthy discourse. I ask the question for it appears we might possess understanding of variant linear with regards to the notion of “nationalism”.

 

“…. I don't support any group with any cause of lamentation with any separation of any kind of degree to my beloved nation--imagined {in this thread} or real threats {as of in some regions}” Do you really think you have an option?

 

Am I correct in assuming that the granularity of the name (Somalia) which perhaps bears subconsciously obligatory infancy meaning of sort appeals to you more than the people (Somalis) themselves?

 

Illumination - It is a united Somalis (people) under Somalia of a different kind (it be states (as desired by Puntland), regional administrations (spoken of, yet to be determined as to how), or even republics (as favoured by Somaliland)) for which is being advocated, not the precariously heinous Machiavellian military junta of the 70s and 80s. Are you able to relate to that mate?

 

This equates Somali nationalism as it promotes over anything else the welfare, wellbeing and yearnings of the peoples of Somali origin. Notice very little emphasis is being placed on “the territories” which only carry meaning should the “people” in the said territories define it as such.

 

Cheers.

[Che -Guevara]

Pland & Sland united.....lol....interesting.

Just one question, would the later settle for being in the backseat of "just to be wrecked car" as the former would surely be driving the car since the former is more politically savvy and mature.

I don't think Sland can trust Pland political elites considering the fact how pland elites destroyed the less mature USC politicians. Besides, it is no secret Pland wants to become the dominant somali province with the inclusion of SSH, and the establishment of lower jubba state with kismayo as its capital for all southern planders. Iam afraid , MMA is right qabiil first before nationalism, and it is for all somalis not just pland.

[Dalni]

MMA/Amneenah

 

I thought Bar-Nomad and other folks were all along advocating to preserve the same thing you two seem to enforce, a Somali unity? Saying Puntland wouldn't seek independence from the rest of Somalia for it doesn't have the agenda do so?