Sakina, An Invitation For A Discussion

[Nur]

Dear Sister Sakina

 

After quietely reading your replies on Aqeedah issues with Self described Salafis, and repeatedly coming across your reference to your research on Muslim scholars such as Al Sheikh Muhammad Ibnu Abdel Wahaab Al Najdi, and after reading your last post ( Salafis) in which you have posted the verse that urges us all to call upon others in Allah's casue with wisdom, I felt that its about time that i invite you for a an educational dialogue in which we exchange points of view with the intention to become better Musims and to have a better understanding of our faith so that we can serve Allah SWT in a befitting way.

 

Knowledge, is said, to be limited by our ability to communicate. Language is the most important tool for communication, it is also the same tool we use for learning of Islam, Quraan and the Hadeeths, as studied by all scholars that you have questioned their judgement and all of their original books were written in Arabic language, the Prophet of Allah was an Arab speaker, the Quraan was Arabic Text( An Arabic Quraan ) as Allah described, and also, ( Xukman Arabiayan ) an Arabic Law, ( To be understood in Arabic context ) hence the importance to understand the tools of the trade, so that we become objective in our quest to get to the bottom of aqeedah issues that we want to resolve for the sake of Allah SWT.

 

What trigerred this thread was your elaboration on the attributes of Allah SWT ( Sifaatul Allah ) which y've said that you have quoted from Kitabul Tawxid of Sheikh Muhammad Ibnu Abdul Wahaab Al Najdi. After posting it and then claiming that the Sheikh has lowered Allah and described him in his book to be like a human with limbs. If indeed that was what the Sheik has meant, then his efforts in teaching Tawhid, ( the principle that says that Allah has no partners nor does he look like his creatures ) is damaged. So, being objective, let us see if you have exhausted your task of showing the truth about this Sheikh which you have made a priority as to conduct a research for many years.

 

 

Dedicating many years of research on a scholar like Sheikh Mohammad Ibn. Abdulwahaab and his principles shows that you care about Islam and that you are sharing your knowledge with others, it can also earn you credibility to challenge the Scholar if you have a similar scholarly background, knowing that the Sheikh is not a Macsuum ( Infallible) like the Itnaa Asheri Shia Imams.

 

I have few questions for the purpose of qulaifying your point of view and the depth of your inquiry.

 

let us start our dialogue with these questions;

 

1. How many years have you researched the Sheikh Abdulwahhab and his principles?

 

2. How many of the Sheikhs books have your read? and in what language?

 

3. How many sources of critics and supporters have you referred to in your research?, and how much of that has the Shia Ithnaa Ashariyah School of thought literature influence your research?

 

4. What percentage of the materials including the Sheikhs books were in Arabic?

 

5. How much of the following desciplines have you mastered for your research:

 

a. Arabic Literature ( English Translations by Critics are not a good place to start )

 

b. Arabic grammar ( Needed to verify translations of English critics claims about the Sheikh )

d. Hadeeth Science

e. The Quraan ( meaning and, interpretation)

f. Fiqh ( Jurisprudence)

g. Usuul Al Deen ( The origins of the deen science) the science that lays groundwork for understanding difficult questions of Tawhid)

 

and lastly, what was the school of thought in which you were raised and educated( Mainstream Sunnah, Mystical Sufi or Ithnaa Asheri Shia) and what is the current school of thought that you follow today after your exhaustive research?.

 

 

Please take all my questions with an open mind as constructive, because I am laying the foundation for a fruitful discussion in which we can learn a lot from each other in a scholarly way.

 

 

Nur

[Viking]

have read many a time that you have researched for years about this man and his principles, which will can earn you from readers enough credibility to challenge the Scholar, who is not a Macsum ( Infallible) like the Shia imams.

Bro Nur,

That comment was a rather sly coming from someone with good intentions!

 

I personally find the questions you asked rather personal and intimidating (for an openning) but perhaps Sakina will not see it in the same light (I read it as you asking - what are your credentials - which is unusual on these boards).

 

I'm looking forward to read and (hopefully) learn from what the two of you have to say; but please bro, don't set up the rules for the discussion (like you often do) without asking for her consent. You at times set up the mode which seems to be a prelude for a massive dicussion which seldom is. This is my opinion (you might not agree with it) but I aired with hope that this discussion doesn't die before it takes off.

 

Peace.

[Final_Say]

salam:

 

i hope you can get some where with this discussion brother nur; i went in circles and gave up after many threads about this shirk and salafiyah both who have been targeted in an unfair manner; i'm glade someone with the time and knowldge will give the sis the time she needs; so i'll leave the platform to you guys and watch the show;

 

maca salamah;

mizz_s.lander

[Nur]

Vikinhg bro.

 

I get your drift

 

You write

 

That comment was a rather sly coming from someone with good intentions !

 

could you please be kind enough to show the hidden meanings for the statement to qualify for your description of being sly?

 

Youw write:

 

I personally find the questions you asked rather personal and intimidating (for an openning) but perhaps Sakina will not see it in the same light (I read it as you asking - what are your credentials - which is unusual on these boards).

 

 

Brother, I hope that you have read her claim that she has researched the Sheikh history and principles on many occasions, isnt only fair to ask due diligence questions to qualify her claim, because we are thought consumers? As a Viking I thought you are for Ralph Nader and on the Consumers side ( thought consumers). Besides, if you have no problem with her questioning of the Sheikh, why would you have a problem of my questioning of her research background and doing research on her as she did a research on the Sheikh? like we say in Somali " Waryaadahee, Culumada kala qabta "

 

You write:

 

 

I'm looking forward to read and (hopefully) learn from what the two of you have to say; but please bro, don't set up the rules for the discussion (like you often do) without asking for her consent. You at times set up the mode which seems to be a prelude for a massive dicussion which seldom is. This is my opinion (you might not agree with it) but I aired with hope that this discussion doesn't die before it takes off .

 

 

Viking bro.

 

I fail to have seen you anywhere of being this protective of someone who is capable of speaking for herself, why havent you come to my help before like her?, and Salafi brother for that matter, just to show that you are a impartial, balanced and just brother?

 

brother, I have not set a rule for this discussion, all i've asked the sister was to qualify her background, beliefs, knowledge of crucial tools and language that are needed to appraise her judgement of the Sheikh, because it was herself that claimed to have conducted a research, all I am doing is to make sure that her research was reliable by well known research standards, and further that she had valid arguments based on solid knowledge of supporting disciplines that are co-requisiste for the issue at hand ( TAWHEED )

 

 

Again, rest assured that my intentions are always good, I want all of us to make to Jannah, it doesnt matter who wins an argument, what matters is that we win the mercy of Allah SWT.

 

Nur

[Viking]

Originally posted by Nur:

could you please be kind enough to show the hidden meanings for the statement to qualify for your description of being sly?

Nur, you said..."who is not a Macsum (Infallible) like the Shia imams"...I found it to be a bit sly because you you don't actually beleive in the infallibility of the Imams of the Shi'a, but you didn't hesitate to throw it in the discussion.

 

 

Originally posted by Nur:

Brother, I hope that you have read her claim that she has researched the Sheikh history and principles on many occasions, isnt only fair to ask due diligence questions to qualify her claim, because we are thought consumers? As a Viking I thought you are for Ralph Nader and on the Consumers side ( thought consumers). Besides, if you have no problem with her questioning of the Sheikh, why would you have a problem of my questioning of her research background and doing research on her as she did a research on the Sheikh? like we say in Somali "

Waryaadahee, Culumada kala qabta

"

I was very vocal when Salafi was here "eating the flesh" (as Sahal puts it) of the culamaa. You were not very vocal but I have seen you giving him advise in his thread about Mawdoodi. In his case, your involvement (as a seasonned Nomad who commands respect on these boards) could have settled the matter. I wish you did a similar thing to bro Salafi (initiate a thread where you discuss the issue of slandering Sheikhs) and I don't think this thread would even be necessary.

 

mizz lander (I think) also asked about Hamza Yusuf and the sheikh was hanged out to dry by some posters on these boards. Salafi posted a dodgy excuse to label him Sufi (=kufr according to some teachings). I was looking forward to your input on the issue as an esteemed, learned member who is also a moderator on these pages. That thread later degenerated because those accusing Hamza Yusuf of being a "heretic" use the teachings of ibn Taymiyya (and AbdulWahhab al-Najdi) as proof. This in turn spurned the usual cycle where those who don't completely agree with the views of the Salafi sheikhs stepped up and expressed their views. Sakina was taking part in those discussions and I believe that led to you openning this thread and inviting her to a dialogue.

 

I left that discussion because it took a circular mode and almost nothing of benefit could be derived in it. It just went to show how views vary on these boards just as they do among Muslims.

 

I did not support one view above another but only adressed Salafi on his baseless assumptions and also quoted Surah Ma'idah to unite my brethren under one banner, that of Islam...

 

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you ISLAM as your religion."- Al Ma'idah 5:3

 

So bro, it is not as you make it that I "come to her rescue" and if you read my contributions on the Islam pages, you'll struggle quite a lot to find ONE post where I have offended or condoned the slander of any Sheikh. It is not about taking sides but not about not letting our differences divide us.

 

 

Originally posted by Nur:

I fail to have seen you anywhere of being this protective of someone who is capable of speaking for herself, why havent you come to my help before like her?, and Salafi brother for that matter, just to show that you are a impartial, balanced and just brother?

You have accused me of being "protective" of people who are Shi'a and you let this assumption (that lacks basis) blur your judgement.

 

As for you, I've been reading your posts for the past five years or so and I don't think anything I could say would rescue you from the "fangs" of another nomad. I have nothing but love and respect for you as a Muslim brother and admire the work you do for our Somali brethren. Maybe this is the reason I'm quick to point to the "mistakes" that you make; not because I have anything against you but it goes to shows that I am almost denying you the opportunity to make a blunder. I don't know whether I was articulate enough to get this important pointthrough to you bro.

 

 

Originally posted by Nur:

brother, I have not set a rule for this discussion, all i've asked the sister was to qualify her background, beliefs, knowledge of crucial tools and language that are needed to appraise her judgement of the Sheikh, because it was herself that claimed to have conducted a research, all I am doing is to make sure that her research was reliable by well known research standards, and further that she had valid arguments based on solid knowledge of supporting disciplines that are co-requisiste for the issue at hand ( TAWHEED )

I've had the pleasure of reading many of your posts since your days of Somalinet. During this time, I've seen how you take your time to explain matters of faith to your fellow Muslims' But I just suggested another way of going about the way you invite someone to a discussion because making a list (by yourself) of what topics that are going to be covered during the discussion might be a "put off" for your opponent. You did this to me when we were discussing the Shi'a-Sunni divide and you listed about 25 books (Nahj and Bidaya wa Nihaya among others) that were were going to discuss. I had obviously not read all the books on your list and I didn't hesitate to tell you that that particular discussion was "above my league". You did almost the same thing with Warsameh, where you went out and set the rules for the discussion and the topics that were going to be discussed by the two of you. This is not a criticism but just a way of showing you that you can handle it differently in order to facilitate for a healthier discussion.

 

 

In this particular case, you almost asked for a CV from Sakina so that she could prove her credentials for being able to undertake such a task (as discussing a Sheikh).

 

 

Originally posted by Nur:

Again, rest assured that my intentions are always good, I want all of us to make to Jannah, it doesnt matter who wins an argument, what matters is that we win the mercy of Allah SWT.

I have no doubt in my mind that your intentions are noble, but the way someone goes about may sometimes taint the mission.

 

May Allah SWT guide us all.

[Sakina]

I felt that its about time that i invite you for a an educational dialogue in which we exchange points of view with the intention to become better Musims and to have a better understanding of our faith so that we can serve Allah SWT in a befitting way.

Brother Nur, from my past experience with you, it will not be easy to have an educational dialogue with you considering the fact that you tend to stray away from the subject and go into personal attacks.

 

Dedicating many years of research on a scholar like Sheikh Mohammad Ibn. Abdulwahaab and his principles shows that you care about Islam and that you are sharing your knowledge with others, it can also earn you credibility to challenge the Scholar if you have a similar scholarly background, knowing that the Sheikh is not a Macsuum ( Infallible) like the Itnaa Asheri Shia Imams.

It seems that even before we've begun the discussion you've already started to sway from the initial subject Salafi versus Ahlulsunna wa Jammah and making it appear to be a Sunni/shia dialogue.

 

3. How many sources of critics and supporters have you referred to in your research?, and how much of that has the Shia Ithnaa Ashariyah School of thought literature influence your research?

Brother Nur, it seems to me that you are obsessed by the Shia and I would suggest that you go to your own thread that you started about them and have a discussion about their school of thought with them and not with me.

 

You've asked several questions that have nothing to do with our topic. Are you implying that if someone is not educated in the Salafi madhab then he is deemed ignorant?

 

I fail to have seen you anywhere of being this protective of someone who is capable of speaking for herself, why havent you come to my help before like her?, and Salafi brother for that matter, just to show that you are a impartial, balanced and just brother?

Brother Nur, do you call this an educational discussion? How can we have a constructive discussion when people are not even entitled to their own point of view?

[Nur]

Sakina

 

So, you decided not to answer any of the above questions that I ahave posted. That is OK for the record.

 

You write:

 

It seems that even before we've begun the discussion you've already started to sway from the initial subject Salafi versus Ahlulsunna wa Jammah and making it appear to be a Sunni/shia dialogue .

 

 

My Dear sister,

 

 

You accused me of two accusations:

 

1. That I made Pesronal attacks before : Please, show an example, If you find one, I will apologise, if you fail, I will happily accept an apology from you.

 

2. That I stray from the topic being discussed :

 

Who is swaying away from the topic? you or me? I've posted this topic, NOT YOU! it is about your knowledge and research on Sheikh Muhammad ibn Abdulwahaab and his principles . Where did I suggest that it is about ( Salafi/Sunna wal Jamaacah )? besides, I have never identified myself with Salafi name, I am a MUSLIM, and no one can chase me away from that name alone, no matter how many other confused people use the same name. I even had a long argument with brother Salafi on the Salafi name, besides, the term of Ahulul Sunnah wal jamaacah is not a name, its a Mad-hab of Scholars, and after being Muslims, its the mainstream Madhab of the Scolars of Islam throughout ages, in that sense, if you follow that mainstream Mad-hab of Ahlul Sunnah wal Jamaacah, rest assured that I have no problem with you, but my intention is to see if indeed your perception of Sheikh Muhammad ibnu Abdulwahaab is fair and justified. To level my doubts, all you had to do was to show me that your sources and background are convincingly solid, because if indeed your intention on this board is for the sake of Allah alone, you must show patience when your claims are criticised, that is the way of Ahlul Sunnah wal Jamaacah.

 

The reason I asked you about the Shia is because materials that you have used to discredit Sheikh Muhammad Ibnu Abdulwahhab, his character and principles in the past are Shia written materials. You can show that I am wrong, just answer the question straight forward and say to me " Brother Nur; rest assured all of my sources are from ahlul Sunnah wal jamaacah " and then, I will thank you for educating me, and others on this board.

 

 

Now, let us begin the journey of learning ( like the Wizard of Ozz, let us all try to change )

 

Sakina Sister asked the question to brother Aristotle:

 

 

Let's concentrate as you suggested on his work such as Kitab al Tawhid by Ibn Abdul Wahhab. Brother, have you read the book yourself? If yes could you elaborate on

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ibn `Umar (ra) informs us that he heard from the Prophet that on the Day of Judgement, Allah , Most Glorified, Most High, will fold up the seven heavens and take them in His right Hand and He will fold up the seven earth and take them in His left Hand and as He folds each of them, He will call forth the tyrants and the arrogant people, making them realise their insignificance by His Words: "I am the King." - i.e. He is the true Owner of all things; He is Perfect in every respect and there is no weakness or defect in Him and that all those who claim kingship or sovereignty are in fact weak and feeble, powerless in His Grasp. He will not be asked about what He does, but they will be asked.

 

Benefits Derived From This Hadith

 

 

1. Confirmation of Allah's possessing two Hands, right and left .

2. Confirmation of Allah's Divine Attribute of Speech in a manner befitting His Majesty.

3. Confirmation of Allah's Name: Al-Malik (the King), from which is inferred His Ownership of all things.

4. Evidence that there are seven earths.

5. The forbiddance of tyranny and arrogance.

6. Evidence of Allah's Perfection and infallibility

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

He also says that Allah is above us, the Kursi is the resting place of the Feet of Allah, that the Arsh is above the water and Allah is sitting on it, he even says that Ibn Abbas confirms of Allah having a hand. It is all in Kitab Tawhid.

 

Brother Aristotle answered to you:

 

I can't provide the proofs for you right now as I'm extremely busy and would require hours upon hours of research and authentic verification (which would require me to visit scholars), but I'm sure our sincere sister bint abee saeed can kindly refer you to the appropriate pieces of evidence regarding Imaam Axmad's beliefs .

 

 

But Bint Abi Saeed did not respond to clarify,

 

And the ball is with me, hence the new thread.

 

 

My Answer:

 

Bismillah wa bihi nastaciin:

 

 

SAKINA sis, the reason that I have asked you about your knowledge in the Arabic language and Islamic carriculae was because I sense that your confusion is based on your lack of knowledge in the Arabic language which was the original book. I amsure that no University will allow a student who has not completed the pre-requisite courses to propose to write a PhD thesis on a topic as sensitive as Tawhid, By opting to google your way through English translations on the web and reading "Wahhabi" keyword, I am sure that you have come across interesting stuff, if I search the keyword " Sakina" likewise, I am sure that i can come up with my own weird theories, but, I dare not , I only search information from reliable sources and original books in their original langauges, besides, i recognize my limitations, so as I am talking to you now, I am studying "Usuul Al diin" from Al Shaatibi and others in Arabic again, I am not boasting, it is an example.

 

 

Background of Confusion of Tawhid Al Sifaat:

 

Allah SWT said " Leysa ka mithlihi shey" meaning " None is similar to Him "

 

In Arabic grammar, Tashbeeh ( Similitude) can be :

 

1. Complete or identical ( like two copies of software)

2. Partial ( like Somalis and Ethipians)

 

the above verse falls in the category of partial similitude, a Nomad may ask, Why? well, let us see other verses to clarify this ambiguity in terms.

 

Allah says " The Jews claimed that Allah's hands are stingy, nay, but His hands are wide open to help, He spends as He pleases ." Allah refuted the Jews claim of having stingy hands, but not having hands, nor did he tell us what kind of hands are they because, like his description of the food in paradise, names may be shared, such as merciful, Generous, Powerful, Kind, but there is absolutely no similarities bewteen Allah and his creatures

 

Allah says about baycatul Ridwaan to the Messegnger " Those who are cutting a deal with you ( Bayca) are cutingt a deal with Allah, Allah's hand is over their hand "

 

Allah speaking on the day of judggement says " and the heavens are to His right side'

 

Allah says " Al Rahman on the Arsh ( ISTAWAA)" ISTWAA in Arabic, means he is placed well on top of it.

 

Allah SWT said " His Arsh was on Water "

 

Allah SWT said " Allah who created seven heavens, and ( when it comes to earths) (Allah created a corresponding number like the heavens which is Seven earths)"

 

 

Many Hadeeths have verified these vesres and expalined it inshAllah I will post upon request as I am writing from the top of my head now.

 

A confusion resulted from these verses and there arose three distinct positions:

 

1. Muctazila and Shia claimed that Allah has no hands, has no hearing, has no eyes, is not placed on His Arsh in short they have made Allah a lame duck they are known as Mucattalah, those who make Allah ineffective.

 

2. Mushabbaha : are those who say that Allah has hands just like our hands,

 

3. Ahlul Sunnah wal Jamaacah are moderate and reasonable, they say:

 

1. We affirm any attribute Allah said about himself, and through His Messenger, If Allah says that He has hands, we say, Allah has hands, and that is our limit, we do not delve on details of how ? because we do not bhave such knowledge and Allah did not share it with us.

 

2. We Ahlul Sunnah wal Jamaacah stand in the middle, we neither say that Allah looks like His creatures, nor do we make Him ineffetive as to remove all attributes that he said about Himself ( like hearing and seeing and wisdom ) by claiming that Hand means ability etc. Nor do we claim that his hands are like ours, because that is making Him look like His creatures. We only say about Allah that which he said about Himself, and we describe Him as he described Himself according to His Muraad , accodring to what He meant. therefore we do not interpret His attributes according to our deffective perception, nor do we deny their existence to make Allah ineffective ( Mucattal).

 

 

VIKING Bro

 

 

Thank you for clarification, the reason i did not respond to the Hamza Yusuf thread is because I have very little exposure about the brother, his beliefs and speeches, in contrast, but, I've read a lot of materials both Sunni and Shia, about Sheikh Muhammad ibn Abdulwahaab, and I also read responses of sister Sakina, the thread was for a single purpose to narrow down the divide so that we see if Sister Sakina's claims about the Sheikh which are based on her reserach are indeed corrrect, I wanted the topic around that.

 

I agree with you 100% on not speaking ill of scholars of Islam, we should only discuss their mistakes and show proof from Quraan and Sunnah, we should not use accusations leveled against them by people who make their faith based on insulting the companions of the Messneger of Allah. Likewise, I disagree with anyone who insults Hamzah Yusuf, or any other scholar, On this board we should discuss how a given Scholars concept is against Quraan and Sunnah, but not personal attacks by calling them names.

 

As For Nomad Salafi's labeling of Hamzah Yususf a Sufi, I dont believe that he is calling him a Kaafir, and although I dont see eye to eye with Salfi on all issues, i can assure you that brother Salafi is not a person who calls someone a Kafir so quickly. In my opinion, Sufi term, like the Salafi term, can be misleading, some of the best Muslims that i have met are labeled as Sufis and Salafis, its not about the name, its the action and belief that counts at the end of the day, and for that direction we should steer our focus.

 

As for your advice for me against my method of asking these questions, ( I resereve the right to make sizeable goofs and blunders, equally like everybody else on SOL, I am no hollier than thou, and you know how effiecient I am at making mistakes ),But Alhamdulillah, I thank Allah to have blessed me with brothers and sisters who show me my mistakes, I thank you for it dearly, may be you are right brother, the human soul is complicated nature, may be , just may be, a different approach may be better, jazaakallahu khairan, I will go back to my drawings to see what I can do differently in the future.

 

 

Nur

[Sakina]

Firstly Brother Nur, I will set the record straight and say that all of my sources are from ahlul Sunnah wal jamaacah. Now that this is clear, you can cease from saying that I quote from Shia sources. In all fairness from now on let us both quote where we are getting our references from whether from Salafi Scholars or Ahlulsunna wa jammah Scholars so that readers of this thread may refer back to these sources and make judgements for themselves.

 

1. That I made Pesronal attacks before : Please, show an example, If you find one, I will apologise, if you fail, I will happily accept an apology from you.

 

2. That I stray from the topic being discussed :

There is a saying in somali (excuse my poor somali) La yeele ayaa xasuusta yeele ma xasuusto.

We only had one discussion on your thread and I stopped contributing because of the personal attack. You say that you did not stray from the topic then why you keep quoting the Shias when we are talking about Salafi/Ahlulsunna issues.

How can we have a discussion about Ahlulsunna (Maliki, Hanifi, Shafici, Hambali) and Salafi (followers of Ibn Abdulwahhab) and you keep insisting on using the Ahlulsunna wa Jammah term to confuse the muslims.

By opting to google your way through English translations on the web and reading "Wahhabi" keyword, I am sure that you have come across interesting stuff, if I search the keyword " Sakina" likewise, I am sure that i can come up with my own weird theories, but, I dare not , I only search information from reliable sources and original books in their original langauges, besides, i recognize my limitations, so as I am talking to you now,

The fact that you say I'm using google as the basis of my research is entirely an assumption on your part. Every time that I quote an aya from the Qur'an, hadith and a book I alway use the author, title, and page# as a reference. Now, Brother Nur, I will pose some questions to you:

 

1. Have you checked all my references?

 

2. Why is it that you assume that I base my research from google as you say and you don't question other people's research?

 

3. Since you are implying that my references are all from "Google key word sites" could you find any references that aren't from the books I quoted. That is, if you have read the books yourself?

 

I am studying "Usuul Al diin" from Al Shaatibi and others in Arabic again, I am not boasting, it is an example.

Are you saying that if we are not majoring in Arabic we have no business researching Islam but we should only listen to your interpretation of the Sharia. Does that mean you have no business talking about medicine or astronomy because you are not majoring in those fields? I believe eveybody has the right to seek knowledge about their religion and way of life regardless of whether they have a Phd in language or not.

 

To the topic at hand regarding Allah having limbs(may Allah forgive us of even thinking that way) or not:

Brother Nur, do you believe that the Qur'an is real and has no metaphor at all or that there are metaphorical verses?

[OG_Girl]

Excuse me all , I am just writting a little note to Brother Nur. No way to be part of this humiliation season ever again since my last experience with this section in SOL...I mean that topic about Shia vs Sunnah.

 

الأخ نور كلام جميل ويعلم الله إنى أحترم أرائك وأقدر جهدك ولكن

حبنا لشخوخ والعلماءيÙوق حبكم لهم ولكننا نضعهم ÙÙŠ منزلتهم بلا تهويل أو تضخيم،أما مصادركم Ùعليها السلام لكثرة ما Ùيها من التألي٠والتخريÙ....ان كل الشخصيات التاريخيه قابله للنقد.والÙرق بيني وبينك انني اعتقد ان الشخصيات التاريخيه ÙÙŠ اغلبها الدينيه منهم تورطو بشكل أو بأخر بتمزيق والتÙريق هذه الأمه وغرصوالروح الطائÙÙ‡ ÙÙ‰ Ù†Ùوس ابناء الأمة... والمضحك حتي ممن لا يحسنون

باللغة الضات لم يسلم ... كما تري هنا.لا أقول إلا الشكوه لله

بينما انت تختار شخصيات معينه كأنهم غير قابلين لنقد

ارجع لمجازر إبن سعود للأهل الجزيرة بما Ùيهم الاطÙال والنساء وإستغلال الدين الحني٠أبشع إستغلال مستخدمين Ùتاوى الشيخ.

 

 

على العموم ليس لى ناقة ولا جمل ÙÙ‰ هذا المنتدى

 

السلام عليكم

[Haddad]

Originally posted by OG_Girl:

بينما انت تختار شخصيات معينه كأنهم غير قابلين لنقد

ارجع لمجازر إبن سعود للأهل الجزيرة بما Ùيهم الاطÙال والنساء وإستغلال الدين الحني٠أبشع إستغلال مستخدمين Ùتاوى الشيخ.

 

 

على العموم ليس لى ناقة ولا جمل ÙÙ‰ هذا المنتدى

 

السلام عليكم

الأخت، لم اÙهم المغزى من ربط المجازر بالÙتاوى. هل ان ما تريده ان تقول هو، الÙتاوى هى التى سببت المجازر؟

[OG_Girl]

يازميل هذا المنتدى هو الإستكمال أو الإمتدات لمنتدى أخر Ùراجع المنتدى الأخر عن السلÙيه حينها ستÙهم تعليقي. وسلام

[Mutakalim]

قل كل يعمل على شاكلته Ùربكم اعلم بمن هو أهدى سبيلاً

[Nur]

اختي الÙاضلة

OG Girl

 

أعتبري هذه كملاحظة عابرة و سريعة و ليس بمثابة

امتداد للنقاش حول الشخ محمد ابن عبدالوهاب النجدي

أولا : ارجو ان تراجعي مقالي مرة أخري بامعان حيث أن اÙتراضك ÙÙŠ ملاحظتك ليس وارد ÙÙŠ مقالي لا من بعيد Ùˆ لا من قريب أصلا.

ياأخيتي المقال يدور حول المزاعم التي ترددينه دون تثبت ÙÙŠ صحة مصادرهم Ùˆ مقاصدهم الطائÙية الرامية الي تذويب العقيدة اللاسلامية الصاÙية بتأويل غير مبني بالأسس الشرعية المتبعة لدى علماء أهل السنة Ùˆ الجماعة Ùˆ أنت أدرى منى أنه ليس من مذهب أهل السنة التضخيم Ùˆ التهويل من شأن العلماء مثل الطوائ٠الأخرى . Ùˆ أخيرا أشكرك ÙÙŠ حسن نواياك Ùˆ الله المستعان على ما يصÙون.

 

Please lets keep the rest of the discussion in English for the sake of the majority of viewers.

 

 

Brother Haddad

 

Thanks for your wise comment, I pray that Sister OG girl takes it as a positive remark, mixing issues is not healthy.

 

Mutakkalim

 

As always, your selected verses of Quraan sum up any discussion with a heart piercing note, May Allah SWT guide us to the right direction, Amin

 

 

Nur

[Nur]

Sakina sis

 

Alhamdulllah that you have set the record straight, let us agree from today on that we discuss the issue at hand or any other issue from a single perespective, that of Mainstream Ahlul Sunnah wal Jamaacah. This agreement means the following:

 

1. We obey Allah and His Messneger and those among us of authority ( vested un them by virtue of obedience of Allah and His messenger like Scholars) and in case we disagree with those in authority ( Which is likely in case they fail to obey Allah and the Messneger) we the followers and those in authity among us (scholars) then, we REFER BACK TO ALLAH AND THE MESSENGER for guidance, referring to Allah means referring to Quraan, and referring to the Messenger means referring to the Hadeeths and the Sunnah of the Prophet SAWS.

 

2.We discuss with the intention of pleasing Allah SWT, and finding truth together, even if we have to abandon previously held ideas if evidence presented is convincing.

 

 

Walaalo, Marka hore, ma aadan qorin hadal cad oo aan qoray uu muujinaya inaan meel kaaga dhacay, waxaan hubaa hal arrin, inaan aad u qiimeeyo dhallinyarada goobtaan ku wada hadla ayagoo kulligoo raadinaya Raalinnimada Rabbogooda inkastoo ay isku si wax u arkin. Walaal, haddad iga fahamtay waxaanan kuula jeedin oo xumaan ah, waan ka xumahay, iga raalli noqo, waa waxa ugu dambeeyo oon raadsado in qof Muslim ah, mid nool ama mid dhintay, aan ku sheego waxaan run ahayen ama aan meel kaga dhaco.

 

 

Walaal, As for my referrence to Shia, its not diversion, you may not have realized, but whenever Sheikh Muhammad AvdulWahaab is mentioned on these boards, he becommes a free game for many sportsmen, each with their own agenda, ( if the Sheikh was on a wrestling match I see him being tagged by at least four different heavyweight wrestlers, Shia, Sufi, The Politically motivated, by aligning him with present day Rulers an conditions, and lastly, war on fundememtal Islam ).

 

Now, when you throw your hat in this quagmire, as an expectator, I want to make sure where are you coming from. Now that its clear, let us move on.

 

 

Walaalo, you write:

 

 

You say that you did not stray from the topic then why you keep quoting the Shias when we are talking about Salafi/Ahlulsunna issues.

 

 

If you allow me to correct your assumption that Sheikh Abdulwahaab is not Ahlul Sunnah wal Jamaacah, he was a staunch Hanbali Fiqh follower and scholar, for your amazement, Sheikh Abdulqaadir Jeilani who is followed by Majority Somali Sufis was also a Hanbali. So unless you have a proof of your assumption that the Sheikh was NOT part of Ahlul Sunnah ( Shafici, Hanbal, Maliki, Hanafi) let us move on.

 

 

Walaalo.

 

The second most fundemental point in which we need to agree is the importance of the Arabic language in research, and the fact that without a sound knowledge of the Arabic language, we can not examine proofs of competing points of view, because as you know, the context of the verses or the hadeeths are important. From your response, I gather that you are neither a native speaker of the Arabic language, nor are well versed in the language, however, as you said, you have learned a lot of the Islamic knowledge through either Af-Somali interpretations, or English.

 

My Dear sister, we can discuss any issue on these threads, as long as we have a reasonable grasp of the topic, in Medicine, like your example, we can discuss it from the point of view of consumers, we can question their methods, but if we pick up their books and start quoting their reerences, we better be prepared to understand their professional counterpunch jargon, for example when a Doctor tells your mum that she has ( Gastroesophaegealreflux ) ( I am not manking this up ) you find your self in a very specialized turf to play ball with people who studied Medicine for eight years in college, 4 years residency ( Professional Slavery ). All I am saying sister is, as long as we can match our understanding of the Quraan and the Hadeeth thorugh a solid knwowledge of the language and through completing basic related subjects and sciences, we can question their assumptions, if we dont, we may not be taken seriously.

 

Although its true that a lot of knowledge has been translated to other languages by students of Islam, no serious scholar has ever challenged a Fiqh concept without a sound knolwedge of the language. So, the first step in understanding our religion is a solid understanding of the Arabic language, the Arabic culture that hosted the religion in its early days, the History of the people in the region and the Seerah of the Rasuul, all engraved in Arabic. The reason that I am mentioning this at the outset is to prepare you for a detailed discussion of concepts that you have questioned about the Sheikh, its only fair that you examine what I am saying favorably as what you have read elsewhere, in the course of the discussion, if we find that the Sheikh is wrong, you win me over, on the other hand, if i show the wrong premises on which the argument of his opponents are based, I want you to be on the side of what makes sense, not the Sheikh's, nor his opponents, just, with the XAQQ, no matter where it is, because, no mortal has monopoly on being right all the time on all issues.

 

 

Walaalo, You ask:

 

 

Brother Nur, do you believe that the Qur'an is real and has no metaphor at all or that there are metaphorical verses?

 

 

Answer:

 

Walaashey qaalida ah, this is exactly what I was talking about, in the Arabic literature, ( Al Balaagha) Metaphor is know as ( Kinaayah), one such example in the Quraan which caused a difference in opinion was this verse " And if you touch women and find no water ( for Gusl)" Shafici followers took the apparent ( Al Thaahir) and in Somalis who are predominantly Shaaficis to this day will make wuduu if they touch women, whereas, Hanbalis, take the metaphoric meaning of the word ( touch) which implied intercourse, because in a similar situation, Virgin Mary RAA was told that she was about to have a baby while she was a virgin, she said " No human has touched me" and we know women do not get pregnant by mere touching. So yes sister, I undrestand Metaphor reasonably well, because I studied it to meet requirement of Arabic Balaagha needed to get the gist of the Quraan and Hadeeth ( I studied the ( Pre-Islamic) Jaahili Poetry which is the richest living literature after the Holy Quraan, because the Miracle of the Quraan swept like a tsunami destrying the supremacy of the Okaz literary convention, I read thorugh the development of Islamic literary giants such as Al Farazdaq, Jariir and Akhtal, modern poets like Mutanbee and Showqi, but my heart was stolen by Abul Ataahiyah's Zuhd poetry, it makse me shed tears, wallahi, my most memorable beit goes like this : و من علامات تضييعي للآخرتي أن صرت الدنيا تضحكني و تبكيني

 

Waxaana tilmaan u ah in ayan aakhiro wax wanaag ah iga horreyn, oon lunshay, oon dayacay, in nolosha adduunka, quruxdeeda, maalkeeda, sharaf raadinteeda, tartankeeda, jeceylkeeda, uu noqday kan iga qosliya markaan helo, igana oohiya markaan waayo )

 

 

Nur

[Kafka on the Shore]

Assalaamu alaykum to all,

 

I don't know why everyone is getting so defensive about Nur. Perhaps it is because you all have known Nur so long before I, and thus maybe has a 'shady' past with him? Ikhwaan, it-taqillaah! Brothers and sisters, can't you see the brother clearly said that he reserves the right to make mistakes, just like the rest of us? Any simple comment that is made can be SUBJECTIVELY MISinterpreted as a personal attack, so please let's not make assumptions that one is personally attacking another for that is suspicion, and suspicion in many cases is a sin.

 

To be quite honest, I agree with almost every point brother Nur said because, for those of you who haven't noticed, all he is asking for is sound pieces of evidence before statements about Islaam are made. He is also tirelessly emphasizing the importance of the Arabic language. The importance of the Arabic language can't be denied by any Muslim who has an objective, critical mind. It's just quite sad the majority of the Muslims don't. Anyone who is asked a simple question (irrespective of how sinister you may think Nur is by asking these questions) must answer them in honesty. I'm not well-versed with Arabic, and I have no shame in saying that (except for the shame I feel because I know Allaah expects more from me as a Muslim).

 

Thus, because no one is qualified enough to discuss INDEPTH any of these highly controversial issues, the best way to go about them is to voice your opinion according to that of a scholar's (since he or she has done the research and earned the respect and credibility of his or her peers). What is important to realize is that these highly controversial issues have been discussed by MANY SCHOLARS that were respected, and these respected scholars were on both sides of the issue. Of course, it only makes sense that one of the sides of these issues is wrong, and that the other one is correct, or that they may be both correct. So if these scholars were able to beautifully discuss these heated topics, why do we even bother coming onto these forums and complain that we're being personally attacked, or personally attacking others. Respect the brothers and sisters that invite you to an educational and constructive discussion. If you find that these discussions are full of insults (we're not talking about sincere statements that may be misterpreted, but if you actually see someone deliberately destroying you), then your job as a Muslim is to follow Allaah's SWT commandment in the Qur'aan:

 

"And the servants of the Beneficent Allah are they who walk on the earth in humbleness, and when the ignorant address them, they say: Peace." (25:63)

 

This beautiful verse clearly tells us that if we encounter sinister people who are purely ignorant, and have no interest in getting out of their ignorance (and are more interested in protecting their image and feed their ego), then we should simply say peace to them and avoid them at all costs.

 

I don't know the hearts of the people here, but I assume by default that Nur and Sakina are sincere people (with differential views), so I will advise them both to be purely objective in discussing these sources. Sakina, this means that if you're asked questions about sources, please answer them without assuming you're being personally attacked. If you feel that you're personally being attacked and you feel that there is a better way to be approached, then advise them of that better way in order to make things more smooth in the future. And Nur, this means that you will approach your brothers and sisters more compasssionately. I know that you're sincere, and the messages in your posts are true, but they can easily be misinterpreted by subjective people and thus they are provocative to many (although the objective person sees nothing wrong with them). All I'm saying is make your statements more sweet so that pearls may be coming out of your mouth (I see pearls indeed, but it appears that many of our bretheren see only silver coming out). Brothers and sisters, please accept my apoligies if I can't reply to your posts as I have limited access to the internet. While I'm away, I hope love prevails.

 

Wassalaamu calaykum