What went wrong?

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by Djib-Somali:

(from salafs, which means followers of the salafs or early followers of the prophets scw, so Salafi are sinonymous with Sunnist or the prophet's Sunnah observers).

You have praised Xiin's qabiil - Djib - you will be forever in his good graces

[Haashim]

Xiin Thanks for this thread. it is important to discover what went wrong in order to not repeat the same mistake. but i don't think Somali ppl will benefit from this mismanagement let alone the past mistakes.

 

What went wrong? mmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

let me think .......

 

combination of several things, let me put in order.

 

1. Ninkii Odayga ahaa

 

2. Quruur (they have been decieved by their quick victories ove warlords)

 

3. Dhaabuurul Khaamis (kula jire kaa jira)

 

 

I think these are the main points accelerated the defeat of ICU.

[xiinfaniin]

@Xiin's qabiil!

 

ThePoint, adeer welcome back horta. Second, Dibji-Somali succeeded to put the salafi term in context and gave its true meaning in effortless manner. I thought it was a rare verse when he wrote that Salafis are sinonymous with Sunnist or the prophet's Sunnah observers!

Now tell me, yaa ThePoint, who can compose after his style ?

 

Dibji-Somali, I think you’ve rekindled the over-due discussion about Sahwah’s varying groups and how much their differing approaches affect their over-all successes as a group! Is it feasible and realistic, for instance, to have Jihads, Ikhwaanis, and Sufis in the same flock and still succeed and reach common goals? Is their difference much greater than their similitude to the degree cooperation and collaboration between them is unattainable? On another level, was it too early to integrate tribal militias without thoroughly rehabilitating them and equipping them with the necessary Islamic tarbiyah?

 

I think in principle Muslims with differing approaches could be mobilized and could actually achieve their goals. But for that to work it requires a sensible leadership that’s well versed with the realities of their surroundings. It also requires support base with adequate religious/political awareness and with a sense of ownership of the Sahwah cause. Abdalla Azam articulated in his Jihaad Shacb how vital it’s for the Sahwah leadership to not just fight the war but to lead the fight by securing the support of a critical mass of the public! The core ducaat should not be sacrificed, he argues, and put in armed struggle without the support of the people whose name they fight. I found that strategy quite attractive and prudent. But it does not have the whole answer and, as we have seen in the last battle, the support of the public may sometimes be deceiving. This is where the fiqh of war comes in and nothing less than Allah’s spiritual sustenance can overcome such a testing adversity. Again empty slogans of Jihad are not substitute for the real prep work such a task requires. In any adventure failure is the default and expected outcome and it should not surprise anyone if that turns out to be the case. But we must be very careful for defeat often detains clear reasoning and introduces lingering anger with which wrong decisions are made and executed. Angry people as Mahathir famously uttered tend to make wrong decisions. As we vividly remember it were the drastic setbacks that caused the erratic and unanticipated violent events in Algeria when the injustice of the Western power prevented the much-awaited harvest of the Islamic Sahwah’s long years of hard work. I hope and pray against similar breakdown of Somali Sahwah.

 

At any rate, our failure is not unique but we need to explain the whys and whats so we can strive to avoid similar fate, I say.

 

 

Soo dhowow yaa Muraad. All those three points make sense to me but I shall wait and let you elaborate more on them!

[S.O.S]

My dear brother Xiinfaniin, we're on the same boat amidst doom and gloom, yet I sense that our discourse is echoing hope and victory in the heavenly horizons, so much so, that I consider it to be well within our reach. All we have to do is work out which course of action we're obliged to follow in balancing on a fragile boat, where failure is not an option. I accept that we have an inherent societal problems, I also accept that collective problems requires a collective problem-solving efforts. You proposed a political paradigm shift and I owe you –let alone the future of our nation- to listen to your ideas very carefully and take them on board. If we can't work it out between ourselves, then what hope is there left for the million others?

 

If we share the same platform regarding the possible and the impossible, we can also share the impossibility of undoing problems which were in the making for decades in just six months! Do we blame the courts for not bringing even more miraculous social transformation in that short period of time than they achieved? They had their Badr to start with and now they’re having their Uxud, it's always what we make of it. I'm fairly confident that once we agree upon the sources of their most serious problems, we can accomplish something and perhaps realise the true nature of these problems as externally engineered, rather than the consequences of courts' policies in origin.

 

You're absolute right in the ways you've formulated the generic roots of many problems faced by "any genuine movement that aims high in its political outlook" as you put it. I tried many times to understand the systemic methodological manifestation of many clannish ills that I've come across, rather than accept the general attribution to mysterious tribal mechanisms that are exasperating conflict prone conditions, wherefrom primitive impulses and devilish tricks take away all moral/ethical and religious senses. I also refuse to accept the western quasi-academic reference to simplistic game theories whereby scare resources (i.e. wells, grazing land, etc.) is the only necessary condition for conflicts to escalate in pastoralist societies. I don't have to prove to anyone that our present clannish mayhem has nothing to do with grazing land; I've seen these problems in all over Europe with neither animals or wells in sight However, I was frustrated by the lack of serious studies with historic-timescale analysis into past tribal conflicts of late starting from midway 1980's.

 

So I conducted my own mini survey on collective channelling of behavioural motives in which tribal opinions are mobilised, but also before/after of such situations as to get an insight about the nature of the conflict (imagine any problem) who's benefiting/losing out or has benefited/lost out and in what way. More importantly, who runs the tribes that unknowingly run us (my true intentions for conducting such enquiry in the first place); in short, who's in charge? Eventually the task was a lot easier than I had imagined since even the most extreme propagators of tribalism are mere deluded supporters (Mohamed Habeens' "The New Breed of Pen-warlords" come to mind), all I had to do was go after the so called qab-qablayaal in the tribal affairs who effortlessly have hijacked their respective clans/sub-clans for purposes seemingly privy to a select few, because all else equates now to loss from cost-benefit perspective.

 

I'll not make the conclusive claims to have an exclusive right to truth after everyone else failed to recognise, but I'm willing to engage whoever says that Ethiopians are not the REAL tribal chieftains of Somalia's orchestrated tribalism-attributed behavioural mischief! They succeeded to impose their men over every single clan/sub-clan as de facto rulers by any means without an exception. Obviously I was despaired a little on that realisation, but then realised too, that it wasn't a very difficult thing to achieve.

 

Another homework that I did was on the systematic infiltration of agents in Ethiopian servitude in every social movement – be it political, military or even religiously natured for the last 75 years. I did that because of the apparently incredible number of hypocrites who infiltrated in the ranks of the Islamic Courts, as to find out their effects on the movement and whether it had a detrimental impact on their course of events. You'll not be surprised to find out that it wasn't unique to the courts alone, rather, it started with the SYL movement which is still very highly regarded by many of our intelligentsia (and rightly so), but harboured the first enemy agents as well (think of how Makhtal Dahir was betrayed back in 1949). Nasrullah had its share deal of moles, as was the case with WSLF and with the current ONLF (some members were thrown out for suspicion only recently). Al-Ittixaad suffered the worst fate because of infiltration in a time when all of this was less understood compared to the situation of the courts now. Al-Islaax has become a hotbed of the more sophisticated spies who target the intellectual elite in general and important institutions in particular. Everyone knows the record Tablighis and Sufis especially in pre 2006 Ethiopian occupied territories, we now have the record of the Salafis as well. If you and I were to start a new movement now, our first members will be attracted by what the French intellectuals who collaborated with the Nazis termed as "cold collaboration" as suppose to warm, where the former denotes collaboration out of opportunism whereas the latter is out of ideological conviction. It's something we have to learn how to live with and at the same time learn how to resist short-sighted tribal bigots who are tempting us to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Alas, with the current hardship, now started the purification process.

 

If you must assign blame, then blame our collective sins from which this has resulted. Therefore we should look the blame in ourselves instead of blaming the courts.

[N.O.R.F]

A good read i must say,,,,,,,

[rudy-Diiriye]

answer! nothing went right!!

[Liibaan]

The question we must ask, was socalled ICU a real and guinuine islamic movement? The answer is of course NO

 

Why

 

- one of their leaders was druglord Indhacadde

 

 

then the end of the story

[Fabregas]

What went wrong?Too many spies!

 

http://www.addacwah.com/Muxadaro/Sh_Fuad_Cabdirixmaan/walatahinu.ram

[xiinfaniin]

lol@too many spies!

 

Miyaad tirisay geel-jirow .

 

Brother SOS-ow, yours was a good read indeed and I enjoyed reading it. The notion of collective responsibility somehow appeals to me. But you have also raised other important points for which I owe you a response IA. I shall come back and highlight those points for the benefit of all, haddii alle idmo.

 

 

Garaad, why utter half-truths, as the one-liner-simpletons do, or bark like a spiteful ignorant, adeer? I doubt that you are that detective to the degree that you are unable to give intellectual backing to your assertions!

 

Ama muuqo ama ka maqnow meesha, i say!

[SOO MAAL]

Xiin,

 

Garaad sida ee wax ugu muuqdeen buu u sheeqay markaa waa maxay aflagaadadu

 

ninyahow inaad intaa dhaantu ayaan kuu maleenayey

 

Afxumo nabad way kaa kaxaysaa colaadna waxba kaagama tarto

[SOO MAAL]

d/p

[DigibAc]

What went wrong is some people saw them like they were only one clan. maybe they were just one clan, but being one clan is not a bad thing in it's self. the bad thing is that all the somali people will not trust a group unless that group is seen as having people from all the warring clans. it did not help that the icu made some moves that seemed qabiilist and had in their rank some people who had qabiilist backgrounds.

 

with that said, lets keep in mind that all nations, clans, tribes are not equal in how much they help the religion of God. The arab tribes of the Prophets time (saw) were not equal in how much they worked for the deen and the Somali clans of today are not equal in how much they do for the deen

 

the ICU should have taken the advice of the well informed people who talked to them and gave them advice.... but they didn't take it

[xiinfaniin]

Soomaal,

 

May be I’ve come out a bit harsher than I’ve meant! I am not at all safe from the gravity of partisanship toward a creed or opinion. Yet I try to be open minded, as much as I can, and seek what other people have to say about any particular event. Good Garaad failed him self, in many ways, when he threw one line remark and walked away without elaboration. Many people have accused Indhacadde of atrocious crimes and pointed out his background as a powerful warlord who forcefully ruled southern communities that lacked military muscle to defend themselves. That’s a known fact, and I am not in any form or shape disputing it. But to suggest that one man has downed an entire entity is quite a leap, I think, and one needs to explain why he/she thinks that is the case. As I said before I don’t doubt that Garaad lacks intellectual capacity to formulate an argument and put some meat on his naked assertion. But as it stands now, the central point of my critique and the subsequent suggestion I offered remain well placed.

 

Digi,

 

You do have indeed a point there. It goes back to the mistrust between Somali communities as the result of the civil war. As Ibnu Khaldoun once wrote, every group has within itself the seeds of its downfall, and I don’t doubt that tribal mistrust was one of the factors that caused ICU’s hurried fall. But the ultimate blame, in my view, rests with their over-simplification of Somali’s political equation, their lack of appreciation of the resolve of Somalia’s external enemies, and their lack of convincing and well-communicated political (not security alone) program, not for the hardcore Sahwah people, but for the average Somalis. As good SOS suggested, perhaps we need to take a collective responsibility for what have transpired. More importantly, we need to view as a process and understand the defective aspects of it so we can improve it. Reforming societies has never been a one-time event---it’s a process. From this setback, I hope next group will learn from it how to take a calculated risk to minimize its loses!

[Liibaan]

Xiin,

 

why utter half-truths, as the one-liner-simpletons do, or bark like a spiteful ignorant, adeer? I doubt that you are that detective to the degree that you are unable to give intellectual backing to your assertions!

Although, Your insults don’t even warrant a response

 

I choose to respond in a civilized manner

 

You broke the following golden rules;

 

3 - Language: do not use

profanity, vulgarity or objectionable language.

 

7 - Flaming: absolutely no personal attacks (direct or indirect). Criticize ideas, not people. Flaming will not be tolerated in any way.

 

I am not at all safe from the gravity of partisanship toward a creed or opinion.

That’s not the issue

 

I guess for you having an opinion means insulting others, But I tell you having an opinion is fine, and insulting those who have different opinion is unacceptable

 

Don’t confuse yourself between the two

 

You can be dedicated supporter of ICU, and still debate in a courteous manner if you don’t know that

when he threw one line remark and walked away without elaboration.

Still, you cannot justify your insults are uncalled-for

 

The length of my contribution is entirely my business

 

if you are unconvinced, you could have asked for more clarification in a respectful manner

 

Many people have accused Indhacadde of atrocious crimes and pointed out his background as a powerful warlord who forcefully ruled southern communities that lacked military muscle to defend themselves. That’s a known fact, and I am not in any form or shape disputing it.

You see even you ( ICU supporter)admitted that Indhacadde is a warlord

 

I have said basically Indhacade is a warlord like Qanyare or Muuse Suudi – a simple fact that even children can comprehend

 

the ICU failed because they were allied with notorious warlords

 

"Facts don't cease to exist because they are ignored"

 

Most Somali people including myself welcomed the ICU thinking that they were Islamic movement; unfortunately actions didn’t match the empty banners

 

But to suggest that one man has downed an entire entity is quite a leap,

One man can tarnish the reputation of a whole group that’s a simple and commonsense, having a warlord like indhcadde tells volumes about nature of ICU

مِنْ أَجْلِ ذَلِكَ كَتَبْنَا عَلَى بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ أَنَّهُ مَن قَتَلَ نَفْسًا بِغَيْرِ نَفْسٍ أَوْ فَسَادٍ فِي الأَرْضِ فَكَأَنَّمَا قَتَلَ النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا وَمَنْ أَحْيَاهَا فَكَأَنَّمَا أَحْيَا النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا وَلَقَدْ جَاءتْهُمْ رُسُلُنَا بِالبَيِّنَاتِ ثُمَّ إِنَّ كَثِيراً مِّنْهُم بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ فِي الأَرْضِ لَمُسْرِفُونَ

32. On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

A woman of the Makhzoom family with good connections was found guilty of theft. For the prestige of the Quraish, some prominent people including Asama Bin Zaid interceded to save her from punishment. The Prophet (pbuh) refused to condone the crime and expressed displeasure saying,

"Many a community ruined itself in the past as they only punished the poor and ignored the offences of the exalted. By Allah, if Muhammad's (My) daughter Fatima would have committed theft, her hand would have been severed." (Bukhari, Sahh Bukhari, Chapter "Alhadood")

 

 

Omar and the Egyptian: Unparalleled Justice

A man from the Copts(1) came to Omar ibn al-Khattab(2) in Al-Madinah(3), and said, “O Commander of the Faithful! I seek refuge in you from oppression.” Omar replied, “You have sought refuge where it is to be sought.” The Egyptian said, “I was racing the son of `Amr ibn al-`Aas(4), and defeated him. Then he began to beat me with a whip saying: I am the Son of Nobles!”

 

So Omar wrote to `Amr commanding him to appear before him with his son. So they appeared before him. Omar inquired, “Where is the Egyptian? He is to take the whip and beat him!” Then the Egyptian began to beat the son of `Amr with the whip as `Umar said to him, “Beat the Son of Nobles!”

 

Anas said, “So he beat him. I swear by Allah, as he was beating him we pitied his wailing. He did not desist until we stopped him.”

 

Then Omar said to the Egyptian, “Now beat the whip upon `Amr’s bald head!” He replied, “O Commander of the Faithful! For it was his son who beat me, and I have evened the score with him.”

 

Upon this Omar said to `Amr, “Since when do you enslave the people when their mothers bore them as free men?” He said, “O Commander of the Faithful! I was unaware of this, and he did not come to me (for justice).”

 

Reference: Seerah Omar ibn al-Khattab, Ibn Abdi-l Hakam; Kanzu-l `Ummaal, al-Hindi; Rabee`u-l Abraar, al-Zamakhshari

Translated by: Shibli Zaman

 

Xiinow hadal haan ma buusho,

“I might show facts as plain as day: but, since your eyes are blind, you'd say, "Where? What?" and turn away” Christina Rossetti

 

 

Although, you have offended me personally, I preferred to end our discussion since you lowered the bar

 

قال تعالى: «خذ العفو وامر بالعرف واعرض عن الجاهلين» (الأعراف، 199).

 

Surah 7. The Heights “199. Hold to forgiveness; command what is right; But turn away from the ignorant.”

[Kashafa]

^^ Says the pretender who speaks with such piety

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Garaad Caanood:

ICU was a murtadiin

Originally posted by Garaad Caanood:

MC

 

ICU had a different religion; ICU was worse then other khawarij groups

Please don't pollute the Islam section with your qashin. You came in with a halagu-maqlo one-liner, and got rightfully smacked by Xiin. Next time, come through with an assertion you actually understand and can defend. Parroting Duke's talking points does not make a strong case.

 

Indhocade ay ku waasheen. Do you see anybody defending Indocade ? Or is he a convient excuse to support the Amxaar-led TFG. One of the weakest most pathetic arguments I keep on hearing is: "I don't support the ICU because of a few bad elements(Indocade and Co.)" To follow your amazingly illogical line of thought, the Companions shouldn't have supported the Prophet(PBUH) because he was aided in his military campaigns by the Munafiqeen community of Madeenah. Sheekadaas waxaa la dahaa throwing out the baby with the bath water.

 

Marka sxb, try again. The Indocade exuse is too transparent. Iskonoqo and try to find out how you woke up one morning and suddenly found yourself in bed with Meles Zenawai and Abdullahi Yusuf.