I remember SNM's crimes against my people !

[Cumar]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

Somaliland’s experience, as painful as it was, was NOT unique. This is what happened.

 

A dictator called Barre wanted to rule the nation an iron fist and when the people started to resist his rule, he used every tool in his disposal to put them down. In Mudug it manifested in the form of destroying water wells and burning villages. In Waqooyi, however, since the conflict seeped in the urban centers, Barre’s response came in the form of destroying cities by different means hence causing large exodus of civilians. He bombed indiscriminately and killed and maimed many innocents. Cruel and irrational, he was. His deeds were savage and criminal in nature. But to take that grievance, and turn it into a tool to divide and dismember the nation is equally irrational. Today the world is a small village, and we don’t live in isolation. You know, I reckon, more gruesome experiences and ethnic strife that caused more deaths and destructions that existed around the world, and got finally solved short of disbanding nations involved and without compromising people’s unity. I know I am rambling here but blaming the acts of a dictator on the entire nation is really hard to understand, and quite pregnant...

 

lol@Me,

 

ka haray hadaba..carry on!

xiinfaniin, are you merely repeating the same unsubstantiated, biased, simplistic soundbytes that was uttered by the rebel movements or is it an allegation that actually has a foundation.

 

The Mudug allegations are unsubstantiated and were simplypropagandic allegations to discredit his regime and incite an uprising. Furthermore, what happened in the Waqooyiga was never his doings.

 

When M S Barre got in a car accident in late '86 I believe, his health deteriorate critically in '88 where he was forced to sleep most of the time and only dedicate an hour at most to his minor presidential duties and public appearances. The man in charge during the waqooyi conflict was the vice-President Maxamed Cali Samatar who admitted on a bbc interview that he ordered the Hargeisa bomb attack and the shellings due SNM's cowardice strategy involving hiding amongst civilians.

 

SNM equally was responsible for the death of thousands of innocent Somalis and the exodus of tens of thousands of Somalis who did not belong to their clan. Evidence:

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/8563/atrocitieska1.jpg

 

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/8026/atrocities2cj6.jpg

 

My abtigey was a prominent SNM commander used to tell me his first-hand account during the conflict. He also said that SNM's grudge wasn't against the late President (mind you that he considers M S Barre the greatest president that Somalia ever had) but rather those who mis-used his regime to settle a grudge (i.e Morgan et la)

 

M S Barre was single-handly responsible for Somali's Golden Age in the 70's where he practically put it on the map at a time when the world regarded as one of the most corrupted country in Africa.

[Paragon]

The case was always forcefully 'united qabiils', with one qabiil at the helm. Who are we kidding. Unity/disunity was reliant on clan interest and still does. Indhaha in la is tiro ma ahan people. Smell the coffee .

[me]

^What do you suggest then? You are always saying that but never offering an alternative.

 

Edit: and how can unity be in one clans interest?

[xiinfaniin]

Originally posted by me:

 

Edit: and how can unity be in one clans interest?

That's really astonishing statement to make!!

[Cumar]

Paragon, Somalis who witnessed the sixties and seventies would enlighten you about the sense of unity achieved in the seventies and the lack thereof in the sixties.

 

In the sixties, there was heavy corruption and a high level of tribalism based affairs and the present government of that time degenerated into anarchy. There were over thousand clan-based candidates and over seventy parties for fewer than 130 seats. The Somali population was simply tired of this power struggle, disunity and pseudo-democracy. Somalia, during that period, received the highest foreign aid per capita in comparison to other African states but there was practically little development projects to no visible improvement in the standard of living. The aid money went straight in to the pockets of the politicians. Most of the custom duties were pocketed by civil servants; hospitals were selling their medicines to local pharmacies; and government-owned cars were being used as taxis. There was no minimum basis for national cooperation and high decree of moral decay was prevalent. This is why M S Barre started a campaign exposing the thievery and mismanagement of the political leaders in the early months after the coup.

 

After Maxamed Siyaad Barre (RH) staged the revolution with senior army officers, it was welcomed by every Somali.

 

Within three years, M S Barre achieved goals that took the previous government forever to decide on. He put in effect the choice of a script for the national language. Civil servants of up to 30,000 students were sent to the baaddiye to educate the nomads in literacy. Industry, banks and businesses were nationalised. Cooperative farms were promoted. Rehabilitation programs were created for drought victims. At least 30,000 students and teachers took part in the rescue-operation with the backing of $20 million. The SN Army was increased from 10,000 to 40,000. He banned foreigners from taking in posts that could be filled by Somalis. Rent was reduced, prices were frozen.

 

The seventies was marked as the best era of Somalia. Kids grew up with no single regard to their clan. Somalis displayed the "Somalia against the World" and "Somalia on the top of the World" attitudes.

 

This is manifested in the words of Abdi Sheikh Abdi who said:

 

It can hardly be denied that Somalia under its present leadership has achieved some impressive results. This is most apparent to someone, like myself, who had been out of the country for many years. A good number of ambitious projects have been started, and in part completed, under the military Government, including the rehabilitation and resettling of nomads who had lost their flocks during the 1974-5 Deba-Dhere drought. These destitute former herdsmen have been settled in farming and fishing co-operatives between the two perennial rivers of south-western Somalia. Other projects include the north-south tarmac highway, built with Chinese technical help, which connects the two main regions of the Somali Republic and thus has both economic and political roles to play. Other projects undertaken by the Barre regime, though less successful, have instilled a co-operative spirit and a work-ethic that had been woefully lacking in the Somalia of the 1960s. The germ of this new spirit is most discernable in the numerous revolutionary youth centres that have been established in recent years. I recall having been very moved by one of the songs sun by orphan girls who had known no other home but such a centre, and no other parent but the state:

 

It is a time of pleasant suprises

When one journeys from a place of

drought and desolation

to one of plenty and prosperity

 

There was a time

When I did not know my lineage

Now I have a father in [President] Siad.

A mother in the October Revolution

The flag is my uncle,

The land my grandfather,

The soil my grandmother...

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/AbdiSheikhAbdi.jpg

 

M S Barre changed the "Whom do you know?" question in to the "What do you know?" which aimed at strengthening the sense of unity and non-tribal identification.

 

I believe things started going downhill after Ina Yusuf staged a clan-based coup and created the first clan-based militia that made M S Barre suspicious (begin 80's) and started confining to his own group.

 

Nevertheless, M S Barre has achieved initially what no Somali has achieved before and that is uniting Somalis for the first time and that is an undeniable fact.

 

Sources:

 

 

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/WilliamZartman.jpg

 

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/PeterWoodward.jpg

 

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/MilitaryRegimes-1.jpg

 

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/MilitaryRegimes.jpg

 

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/KirsternHolstPetersenNuruddinFarahc.jpg

 

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/DavidLaitin5.jpg

 

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/DavidLaitin4.jpg

 

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/DavidLaitin3.jpg

 

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/DavidLaitin2.jpg

 

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/DavidLaitin1.jpg

 

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/Apostolopoulos.jpg

 

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/AbdiSheikhAbdi.jpg

[xiinfaniin]

^^Are you Shiekh Sulayman?

[Cumar]

I am Suleyman, yes.

[xiinfaniin]

^^You see, the reason I did not response to your diatribe was because your tone and writing sounded quite familiar. I can easily distinguish between rational people from the irrational ones. And with that you may want consider using your talent to advance other causes adeer and forgo from the urge of defending a dictator who passed away years ago and whose crimes and cruelties are recorded both in print and memory.

[me]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

quote:Originally posted by me:

 

Edit: and how can unity be in one clans interest?

That's really astonishing statement to make!!

Maybe Paragon should explain, I have heard him say similar things before, but usually its hit and run, so here is his chance to explain how Somali unity is in teh interest of one clan and not the whole Somali nation.

[A.J.]

Xiin,

 

this thread blew before i got a chance to answer your question but i will still answer it now.

Warancade, I gather you concede fact#1. There are significant regions in former British Somaliland whose consent you have not secured. In fact there are considerable portion of them whose desires to stay with the union is quite problematic for your agenda.

 

Now fact#2 and fact#3 are tied adeer. if you disagree those three facts have effectively halted your secessionist wheels, would you be a good chap and enlighten us all what is it that’s stopping you to secede?

You have got your own facts messed sxb,

 

I disagreed with points 1 and 3 and only said that point 2 has substance in International law. yes it is true that since we have entered into an act of union we need a consensual annulment of the act of union. But the international community can put pressure on Somalia to consent to the annulment the act of union if it wished to fully recoqnise Somaliland as an indepent state. so in practice there is nothing sigfincant stopping UN nations from recoqnising Somaliland if they wanted and this issue isnt as significant as some make it out to be although it does have some substance.

 

The main things that is stopping Somaliland from getting international recognition is a combination of few tricky areas in in international relations. firstly most countries and international entities are weary of being the first to recoqnise Somaliland in the fear of setting a precedent that nobody follows. This is linked to the point that most nations feel they haven't got much to gain from from granting Somaliland its independence. they feel it would cause more tension in the area then it would do good which is unfounded but arises from the fact of them not having enough knowledge of the area, which if they did would show them that in fact granting Somaliland would solve a lot of tension rather then cause more.

 

Of course there are many other reasons and most nations have their own view on the situation but i would say that in due time it will change once the awareness of the situation grows in significance.

 

Until then we weill keep building and redevolping our nation whilst mainting a peaceful and prospering state.

[Cumar]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

^^You see, the reason I did not response to your diatribe was because your tone and writing sounded quite familiar. I can easily distinguish between rational people from the irrational ones. And with that you may want consider using your talent to advance other causes adeer and forgo from the urge of defending a dictator who passed away years ago and whose crimes and cruelties are recorded both in print and memory.

xiinfaniin, whilst debates that ommit references is your thing, it is fortunately is not mine.

 

So I advise you to stop employing evasive maneuvers and learn the rules of debating where you provide complete source citations for your allegations.

 

To regard a well-reference post as a diatribe is simply ludicrous and yet has the audacity to to accuse me of irrationality.

[Paragon]

Me, it doesn't really take a genious to figure it out, or does it? Be as critical in your thinking as you may be and ask yourself: what lands and people are there to unite? Somali lands ofcourse. Now, narrow and deepen your question and ask yourself: who are these people and who wanted to unite them with Somalia?

[xiinfaniin]

Originally posted by Warrancaddeh:

Xiin,

 

The main things that is stopping Somaliland from getting international recognition is a combination of few tricky areas in in international relations. firstly most countries and international entities are weary of being the first to recoqnise Somaliland in the fear of setting a precedent that nobody follows. This is linked to the point that most nations feel they haven't got much to gain from from granting Somaliland its independence. they feel it would cause more tension in the area then it would do good which is unfounded but arises from the fact of them not having enough knowledge of the area, which if they did would show them that in fact granting Somaliland would solve a lot of tension rather then cause more.

 

Of course there are many other reasons and most nations have their own view on the situation but i would say that in due time it will change once the awareness of the situation grows in significance.

 

Until then we weill keep building and redevolping our nation whilst mainting a peaceful and prospering state.

^^Keep doing the dev thing and stay away from Dahar and LA~~

[me]

Originally posted by Paragon:

Me, it doesn't really take a genious to figure it out, or does it? Be as critical in your thinking as you may be and ask yourself: what lands and people are there to unite? Somali lands ofcourse. Now, narrow and deepen your question and ask yourself: who are these people and who wanted to unite them with Somalia?

No I can't figure it out, so tell me, since you seem to know something i clearly don't know, ii sheeg bal. Ha ku dul wareegin.

 

edit: and what do you suggest for the Somali people? that they should stay in the current mess? please give me your ideas on the matters.

[Che -Guevara]

Xiin..Is that a threat or warning old man?