I remember SNM's crimes against my people !

[Centurion]

As Farah-Brown said, who's going to stop them to do so? well, no one can. Xiin, dont you understand that in democracy 'power belongs to people.' It was Somalilanders who decided to unite with the rest of Somalia in the 60s. That was not a forced union, remember. Therefore, don't you think they have the moral right to secede from the union for whatever reason.

 

I know those of you who do not shy away from the silly phrase that 'Somaliland people cannot decide to secede' are such those who cannot even agree on what government they want to have in Somalia. It is such kind of attitude that have destroyed the country and silenced many Somalis who could have made Somalia a better place to live in. My advice to you is to forget about Somaliland, and think about the mothers and children of your country, Somalia, who constantly live in fear and hunger.

Roobleh, i know those who do not shy away from the silly phrase 'We joined on our own accord, now we can leave'.

 

It isnt that simple.

 

Somalilanders never purposefully seperated themselves from the rest of Somalia in the first instant.

It was a consequence of the machinations of the Colonialism which resulted in the formation of 'Somaliland'.

And neither was it a sovereign nation during colonisation (before 1960), merely a British protectorate. It was never in any way or form a nation on its own back in the days of British Colonial rule.

 

Now like Xiin said, it is quite ethnically amoral(and in my opinion fantastically presumptious) for one clan to claim borders drawn up by some Lawyer in London to manifest British 'territory' as their natural borders and seek permanent secession.

 

 

'Somaliland' was never the sole habitat of 'Somalilanders'. Virtually all tribes were represented significantly in Hargeisa before the civil war; another reason why Somalilanders have no right to permanently secede.

 

In 1960, 'Somalilanders' were amongst the loudest voices calling for the realisation of the dream; Somaliweyn.

Somaliland did not join Italian Somaliland reluctantly, in fact the reason why the British protectorate sought Independence was to re unite with the rest of the country, for all clans understood (and i believe continue to understand) the importance of unity.

 

Hopefully sometime i can get around to starting a thread in the Debate section on Somaliland, where we can properly scrutinise the 'justifications' of Somalilanders for an independant sovereign nation.

[xiinfaniin]

Originally posted by roobleh:

As Farah-Brown said, who's going to stop them to do so? well, no one can. Xiin, dont you understand that in democracy 'power belongs to people.' It was the Somalilanders who decided to unite with the rest of Somalia in the 60s. That was not a forced union, remember. Therefore, don't you think they have the moral right to secede from the union for whatever reason.

 

I know those of you who do not shy away from the silly phrase that 'Somaliland people cannot decide to secede' are such those who cannot even agree on what government they want to have in Somalia. It is such kind of attitude that have destroyed the country and silenced many Somalis who could have made Somalia a better place to live in. My advice to you is to forget about Somaliland, and think about the mothers and children of your country, Somalia, who constantly live in fear and hunger.

^^^So it came down to ‘who is going to stop us’, miyaa yaa Roobka (ta)?

 

You need to consider few facts on the ground then.

 

Fact#1: only some , and not all, of the former British Somaliland’s community drive this independence push.

 

Fact#2: The legal strength of the act of the Union: one part alone can’t abolish it without the full consent of the other.

 

Fact#3: The regional concerns of opening a Pandora’s box; the same colonial legacy on which your project hinges left deep scars on this continent, and regional and international bodies are for ever cautious about revisiting Africa’s shaky political boundaries.

 

You can dismiss all of these quite hastily as good Oodweyne often does but they have indeed proved to be the natural levees against secessionist’s ceaseless efforts to separate from the rest of this deeply wounded nation.

 

 

edit:

Faarax, I am sure those who want to secede today do not represent the entire Somaliland's people as those you referred to did then---hence the difference.

 

Ka butuli….

[me]

Ladies and gentlemen,

 

the last couple of days here on SOL have proven that the secessionist have no case, other then because 'we' want to. In 1993 I was told that the reasoning behind this so called 'secession' was so that the union between Waqooyi and Koonfur could be re-negotiated, well we have passed that.

 

Today the 'secessionists' don't even want to hear about re-negotiating the terms of the union. But they also lost the opportunity for favorable terms, today no one is Somalia will get special favours, because everybody wants it all. The secessionists lost a great opportunity.

[A.J.]

Fact#1: only some , and not all, of the former British Somaliland’s community drive this independence push.

 

Fact#2: The legal strength of the act of Union: one part alone can’t abolish it without the full consent of the other.

 

Fact#3: The regional concerns of opening a Pandora’s box; the same colonial legacy on which your project hinges left deep scars on this continent, and regional and international bodies are for ever cautious about revisiting Africa’s shaky political boundaries

Xiin

 

Of the above three points you make only one is a fact that other two are arguements and are your personal opinions.

 

First of all it was confirmed in the internationally approved referendum of 2001 that the large majority of the population of Somaliland want an independent Republic of Somaliland. this you cannot dispute unless you have evidence to suggest the contrary.

 

Your third point is totally irrelavant and so far-fetched from the topic that it doesnt bear any light on this issue. The issue of borders would certainly not be one to stand in the way of International bodies and nations to grant Somaliland its legitimate independence. These borders were recoqnised before Somaliland joined in the union with Somalia. They are the original borders of Somaliland and therefore dont intervene with the AU's conventions on border changes.

[RedSea]

^Xiin the majority do want to secede.

 

Centurion,

 

What is immoral about the decision reached by millions in Somaliland?

 

Everywhere in the world has borderline drawn by the colonizers, no one is safe from such markings anywhere.

 

The reality is Somalilanders simply WISH to not join or get involved in another disasterous union. What more and better reason is there?

 

They want to go down their own way, therefore it's the right of every human being to decide what they want to do and how they want to do it.

 

Somaliland is resided by people, the people there want to rule Somaliland based on their own system of governance, stand under thier own cloth of colors (flag). The only two choices you have is to

 

1. Beg them to join you.

or simply

2. To wish them good luck.

 

You cannot in any way shape or form insist that someone is wrong by doing what they think is the best of their interest.

 

I know you wouldn't understand and would rather loose your time and mind over Somaliwayne myth which is unattainable by the current standards.

 

Ther is nothing wrong in dreaming about Somaliwayne and how it would be like for all somalis to join hands and sing 'AAbo whatever' however that dreame has already been dreamed, that dreame has already turned out to be a nightmarish, therefore, to insist that we go on voyage for the revival of such dream would only bring back distant memories which other wise have been forgotten about.

 

Somaliland is doing very well Masha Allah, the only two options you have are listed above.

 

 

Thanks for your time.

 

Out.

[RedSea]

Originally posted by me:

Ladies and gentlemen,

 

the last couple of days here on SOL have proven that the secessionist have no case, other then because 'we' want to.

What reasons do you that I joined with the South?

 

Other than the usual we have the same culture, faith, color...etc...

 

How many distinct Arab countries are there.

 

Maybe you don't want to grasp the effectiveness of when someone says, they don't want to go down that path, but would want to go down that path. THe somaliland case is very clear and out there, its' all about the people and their God given right to decide, to choose their own self governance. Offcourse one who believes that Dictator Siyad Barre was hero is vailed from that.

 

For example: if I say to you mr. me. That we do share in everything as far religion, language, same race, however I feel like you dont' have what it takes to form good brotherly relationship since we have had previous experience, then I shall decide to go on with my own way.

 

What would your reply be?

 

As for your last ill comment. Just to remind you Somaliland has been considered the best story to happen in Africa, I don't see any loses there saaxib. The only bright spot shining in the former somali republic is Somaliland. So if you weren't filled with hate, you would infest in Somaliland and buy a house there long ago. NOw the housing prices are hiting the roof, speaking of losing an oppurtunity. :rolleyes:

[xiinfaniin]

^^^Whose majority are you talking about yaa Redka? If you talking about the clans of SNM rebels who fought against the regime of Barre, I say yes. And that’s why I said some want to secede. Adeer you could repeat these mantras about people decided this and people decided that, but at the end of the day Somaliland’s grievances are political in nature and could be addressed without full dismemberment of Somalia. To separate from a country in the midst of civil war is a dream gone bad, I say.

 

Warancade, I gather you concede fact#1. There are significant regions in former British Somaliland whose consent you have not secured. In fact there are considerable portion of them whose desires to stay with the union is quite problematic for your agenda.

 

Now fact#2 and fact#3 are tied adeer. if you disagree those three facts have effectively halted your secessionist wheels, would you be a good chap and enlighten us all what is it that’s stopping you to secede?

[RedSea]

Originally posted by Centurion:

 

Somalilanders never purposefully seperated themselves from the rest of Somalia in the first instant.

It was a consequence of the machinations of the Colonialism which resulted in the formation of 'Somaliland'.

And neither was it a sovereign nation during colonisation (before 1960), merely a British protectorate. It was never in any way or form a nation on its own back in the days of British Colonial rule.

There was no somali nation under the colonial powers, however when they left they did grant Somaliland a nationhood status which was recognised by more than 30 countries.

 

Now like Xiin said, it is quite ethnically amoral(and in my opinion fantastically presumptious) for one clan to claim borders drawn up by some Lawyer in London to manifest British 'territory' as their natural borders and seek permanent secession.

The whole world functions based on colonial border. If the country that claims to be strongest nation of the world has been colonized, almost every nations experienced some period of colonial dominations. If that was the case the Arab countries have no right to to be seperate entities and the fact that they are seperate thought they share same values is immoral, No?

 

 

'Somaliland' was never the sole habitat of 'Somalilanders'. Virtually all tribes were represented significantly in Hargeisa before the civil war; another reason why Somalilanders have no right to permanently secede.

Somaliland was always resided by the majority of one tribe. However as a result of '77 war displacement the city of Hargeysa saw many somali migrants from Somali galbeed who settled there. Other than the city had always been a city dominated by one tribe, though even today there are large group of people from all areas of Somaliland who reside there, yet they are with the cause of Somaliland.

 

BTW...never use the term 'never' specially without being sure of being right, you aren't.

 

 

In 1960, 'Somalilanders' were amongst the loudest voices calling for the realisation of the dream; Somaliweyn.

Somaliland did not join Italian Somaliland reluctantly, in fact the reason why the British protectorate sought Independence was to re unite with the rest of the country, for all clans understood (and i believe continue to understand) the importance of unity

yes we were and today here we are for differnce case of Somalilandnimo, in fact the first to put the flag on the pole in teh heart of Hargeysa's liberty park with the beautiful peom of Abdullahi S. Timacadeh on the background.

 

That being said, here is the area,that pro 'unity' are the weakest. So by all means, has unity worked? have we experience the importance of unity. Other than few years of goodness, the rest was something to forget about.

 

 

Hopefully sometime i can get around to starting a thread in the Debate section on Somaliland, where we can properly scrutinise the 'justifications' of Somalilanders for an independant sovereign nation.

Once again, it's human right and Somaliland does have enough case to satify or meet the requirment of internation community. However as the current law says, the south must first get a governant then nogiatiate with somaliland of whether they are for the seccesion of Somaliland, however whazzup with the South?

 

I hope the world doesn't come to an end with Southern Somalia in choas and Somalialnd still looking to expand to its full potential.

[RedSea]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

^^^Whose majority are you talking about yaa Redka? If you talking about the clans of SNM rebels who fought against the regime of Barre, I say yes. And that’s why I said some want to secede. Adeer you could repeat these mantras about people decided this and people decided that, but at the end of the day Somaliland’s grievances are political in nature and could be addressed without full dismemberment of Somalia. To separate from a country in the midst of civil war is a dream gone bad, I say.

 

Xiinfaniin,

 

Puting myself in your shoes for a moment. It's really hard for me to imagine this somaliwayne thing and hwo it's even possible. Yes with determined people it would be however, with a population that cannot even set up the smallest, peacefull and functioning entity even with the help of foreigners doesn't give me all that hope.

 

BTw...teh majority of Awdalites are as well.

 

 

 

[xiinfaniin]

^^Adeer it’s possible. It starts with having a clean political attitude. And to the contrary, I do really think embarking on a project to separate is more difficult and problematic then working on the return of the Somali republic!

 

This notion of Somaliland declaring independence is something I thought hard on and attempted to rationalize , but it really does not make any sense. How could some one like your education and religious understanding miss the value of unity? How could some one like you ignore the regional challenges that are sat before you as a Somali and Muslim? I could understand Oodweyne and other secularly oriented folks who think narrowly in Somalia’s tribal settings, but you, yaa Redka, baffle me the most! Is it not disturbing to see young landers willing to shed blood just to cling to a wickedly sketched colonial borders?

 

Nin walaalki geed ugu jiraa geesi noqonwaaye’e~~~!

[RedSea]

Xiinfaniin

 

With more of your kind, I think we could work many things out.

 

Don't get me wrong, because I think everyone value unity. The only unity I can value is unity based on the Sharica law, not only I, but if we were to examine of the possibility of 'another' unity, then it would be through trustworthy leadership, perhaps like Sh. Shariif Axmed of UIC.

 

 

However looking at the picture today, I don't see it happening. We can certainly sit here and talk about the idea, however when you have all sorts of problems and you can't tell who is advocating what and who is who....then it doesn't really give me any hope.

 

 

You have Abdullahi Yusuf Axmed and many Planders with the exception of you saying they are proud Pats however then rallying behind a corrupt man like he who is by far the biggest enemy and rival to such believe. When you have warlords thugs claiming to be advocating for Somaliwayne at the same token stealing people' properties. Even at times threaten Somaliland's self governance. Those kinda of being and their acts only motivate Somaliland to further think that Somaliwayne is a myth, so far it appears to be.

 

 

So without going in circles, let us say. South must bring their acts together. They need to come together and find a way Insha Allah to install a leader like Sh. Shariif Axmed. I think a man like he with clean record would appeal to many. Having a man like Abdullahi Yusuf Axmed, or any other formers of dark somali era politicians in power doesn't help anyone nor will any Somalilander hinder to fall for them again.

 

Secondly, stay positive, recognise Somalilands' good doings, congradulate them for whatever they are doing. Because of all somali race perhaps with the exception of Djabuti, Somalialnd has been teh most helpful to the somali people. You don't see bloody wars that take teh lives of innocent people. There has been unright gain in Somaliland since the civil wars, with minimum loses of human life. Once again, everyone should give big thumbs up to that.

 

With that kinda of attitude, not only will the case of Somaliwayne come across well and apeal to others, but would bring people closer.

 

However, if Somaliland bashing becomes our favorite subject, without nothing good or postive to say, then by all means that motivates I and other Somalilanders to even wonder why even entertain the idea to consider a unity with such God forsaken beings.

 

Thanks,

 

OUT.

[Centurion]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'Somaliland' was never the sole habitat of 'Somalilanders'. Virtually all tribes were represented significantly in Hargeisa before the civil war; another reason why Somalilanders have no right to permanently secede.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Somaliland was always resided by the majority of one tribe. However as a result of '77 war displacement the city of Hargeysa saw many somali migrants from Somali galbeed who settled there. Other than the city had always been a city dominated by one tribe, though even today there are large group of people from all areas of Somaliland who reside there, yet they are with the cause of Somaliland.

 

BTW...never use the term 'never' specially without being sure of being right, you aren't.

This doesnt make sense.

You have not refuted my claim that 'Somaliland' was never the sole habitat of 'Somalilanders'.

In fact you ramble on about how some people have migrated their.

So i dont understand where this example of your usual idiosyncratic side comments comes from

 

BTW...never use the term 'never' specially without being sure of being right, you aren't.

as you havent succesfully replied to this claim.

 

Hargeisa was never solely populated by the 'dominant' clan. (I will give you another go)Can you prove other wise?

 

However, if Somaliland bashing becomes our favorite subject, without nothing good or postive to say, then by all means that motivates I and other Somalilanders to even wonder why even entertain the idea to consider a unity with such God forsaken beings.

So you wish soft words and to be sweet talked into a union- like some coy bride?

[RedSea]

The ball is in your court, soft words are the only options you have, what other options do you have in pursuading me to join you in this 'Somali saving project'?

 

I am the property owner that is Somaliland, I can rule it as I want to. I can even decide to annex it to Yemen and share a country with them if I feel like my interests are rested there, therefore, you on the other hand have only two option, the third one is up in the air.

 

1. Kneel down and beg me to join you.

2. To wish me luck.

 

and the third is up in the air.

 

3. Forcefull annexation.

 

Morever, you made the assertion, 'Hargeysa was never' solely populated by 1 clan.

 

My prove has to be simply because I am from there, lived there from generations to generations, is that good enough for you?

 

 

During the Siyad Barre bombing compaign, he used the slogans of 'elemination of X' clan from the area they inhabited MOSTLY, that include Hargeysa, Burco and Berbera,which were leveled in order to kill as many members of the dominant tribe there. If clan X wasnt dominant, I don't think Barre would have been stup1d enough to kill his kinsmen would he?

 

 

Secondly, let me flip this on the other side, what prove doYOU have that it was not populated by 1 dominant tribe, hence you made the claim?

[Centurion]

The whole world functions based on colonial border. If the country that claims to be strongest nation of the world has been colonized, almost every nations experienced some period of colonial dominations. If that was the case the Arab countries have no right to to be seperate entities and the fact that they are seperate thought they share same values is immoral, No?

I have not the time to spare to dissect your weak arguments, but i'll reply this paragraph of yours.

 

If you read again my paragraph to which you attempted to dispute i commented that 'It is ethnically amoral for one clan to adopt colonial borders signifying British territory in the North- as their own natural borders.

'The whole world' didnt experience the same level of unreasonability when it came to the drawing up of borders by the appropriate colonial powers- as Africa did, this well known phenomenon continues to fuel contention all over the continent.

So you see it is non-sensical for one clan to claim territories inhabited by many other clans, simply because they are the majority.

 

Morever, you made the assertion, 'Hargeysa was never' solely populated by 1 clan.

 

 

My prove has to be simply because I am from there, lived there from generations to generations, is that good enough for you?

No.

[RedSea]

^^^ you keep editing eh to throw me off.

 

Have confidence in what you write saaxib.

 

Because you deleted your reply and edited, I shall mind as well to be fair.

 

Awdal, Hargeysa, Saaxil, Togdheer, parts of Sanaag and few cities of Sool such as Oog and Caynabo are all on the bandwagon of Somaliland' quest for indepenence.

 

 

In additon, if its' non sensical to claim other people lands and force an idealogy which they don't want to except down their throat, then to all fairness, Southern Somalia cannot force my 'lil' area to join them on mythology like Somaliwayne. Fair enough!