MAY 18th

[Gabbal]

Where do people with your kind of insider knowledge get nerve to protest (too much if I may say so) when

we

point

you

out as ousted and frustrated 'Victory (ha!) Pioneers'.?

Who's the "we" or "you"? I don't think I like being generalized all that well. So if you'd tell me who the "we" (I know you are Ayoub_Sheikh) and the "you" (I know I am HornAfrique) are, that would be helpful.

[Baashi]

Morning Ngonge,

We may not agree on all topics and we may not see things through identical lens but I respect how calm, respectful, and collected you come across when opining on SOL forums. In online forum, that's all one could ask really. You have been every Somaliweyn's favorite secessionist . This is not just because you throw us a bone of agreement in our rare encounters. You actually seem reasonable. You give the impression of being open to persuasion. In your last two posts, however, the opposite is true. You are now a hardliner! All of the sudden you are now sure that Garowe and Las Caano don't belong together! Hek, you don't even think there is a reason to discuss or as you put it "sell" the idea of Somaliland to other Somalis (it’s okay to sell it to foreigners to attain recognition).

 

Your last post is very interesting one. As someone who believes in the wisdom behind the secession, of course you don't think the case against it is that strong! That's understandable! What's not clear to me is what makes you think that you are impartial to the debate sxb? The reason I ask this question is that you seem to consider yourself as an impartial observer on the one hand, and you are trying to convince the other secessionists that you are one of them who has different priorities, on the other hand.

 

Clannish arguments are the nature of the beast we are dealing with here! After all, Somali politics is “clannish†in a profound way. So is the history of secessionism: where, why, and how the whole thing got started is very important if we are to understand and address the root cause of the secession question. You may think bringing it up is a cheap way at scoring points against Tolstoy and what he stands for. You may think that the fact that Somaliland has been a de facto autonomy for 14 years absolves both sides of the aisle the responsibility of digging deep and exposing the inescapable truth that the reason Somaliland don't have control over the "historical" territory it claims to rule has something to do with sheer clannism. The truth of the matter is clannism, colonial legacy, and grievances are raison d'etat of Somaliland's existence sxb. If these are blinkered and pointless charges, I expect you to back up that statement with convincing argument more than "I could go on" and dismantle them statement. I'm all ears sxb.

 

Two other points you made in your last post strikes me as funny. Are you equating Tolstoy's uncompromising contempt against sizable segment of Somalis ("defeated lot") with my argument that secession is spearheaded by one clan and the whole enterprise is motivated by sheer clannism? Or pointing that out in my posts is what you want me to "drop"? Am I really equally donning my birthday suits? I consider myself as a reasonable man and I would reexamine and reconsider my views if I'm in anyway deserved to be put in league with the likes of Tolstoy! For I consider him as the epitome of clannish mentality. The man has penned disturbing posts!

 

As to the point that dreamers hope that things will come around and all the troubles that we are having today will be put behind us one day, that’s called optimism. It’s a good attitude! Dreams are good if acted on sxb. Hope is the necessary sustenance that keeps the dreamers going! I view that our problems, and they are painstakingly difficult ones by any measure and I acknowledged them all, as realities to be changed. What you don't seem to understand is that with effort, no matter how challenging and difficult odds against us are, dreams can be realized. What is important here is that what one wishes to attain is a right, just, and noble end.

 

Pragmatic and practical person, judging by evidence of course , will tell you that dismembering an existing country is not your cup of tea! An informed and knowledgeable person will tell you that the union between North and South can legally be dissolved only after the republic is restored. He will tell you that the existence of Puntland region complicates the secession if it ever materializes. He will tell you that Somaliland itself will most likely be dismembered due to persistent actualities on the ground. A dreamer of other sort , on the other hand, will never take the reality on the ground into account and will only see what he wants to see. I hope you don't mind me mimicking you there; I want to make an obvious point that escaped your analysis.

 

Sxb the matter of the fact is that every letter sent to ask recognition another two will reach on the same desk asking these powers who have a say on the question to not dismember Somalia and balkanize the region. Here in the US some of the elected representative from the states Somalis reside have given their word that they would not allow Somalia to be dismembered or the question of secession to be considered during this difficult time.

 

The question is what became of us if secessionists try their best in dismembering the country and fail to realize their “dreamâ€.

[NGONGE]

^^^ Got to go home in a minute. Will try to reply later tonight.

[NGONGE]

You are now a hardliner! [big Grin] All of the sudden you are now sure that Garowe and Las Caano don't belong together! Hek, you don't even think there is a reason to discuss or as you put it "sell" the idea of Somaliland to other Somalis (it’s okay to sell it to foreigners to attain recognition).

I thought we already exhausted the topic of Las Caanod in the thread we had a couple of months ago, saaxib. The jury is still out on that one. These, and I’m sure you’ll agree with me here, are mere border disputes. Whether they’re part of Somaliland doesn't negate the main argument for the existence of Somaliland.

 

I’m not impartial to this debate at all. I am a Somalilander! I’ve always maintained that I had no emotional attachment to Somaliland, and I still don’t. If I wave the flag, then I don’t wave it out of faith in those that run that place, sentimental reasons or out coercion. I grudgingly wave the flag now because I genuinely believe the union is no more. I see no benefit whatsoever in being part of the federal government. Having said all of that, I’m also not very impressed with the direction Somaliland is taking or the way it always attempts to justify itself. If disagreeing with both sides (on different issues) makes me impartial, then impartial I am, saaxib.

 

Clannisim, as I already stated in my earlier post is part and parcel of the Somali attitude. It is pointless to argue that Somaliland is using clan politics when the whole of Somalis does so! It really IS not much of an argument, saaxib. As for the swan dance about history and grievances, without wanting to waste too many words on these, I only refer you to the last 14 years of Somaliland’s existence, saaxib. These same reasons and arguments have been used for 14 years now and if the situation stays as it is, they’ll be used for another 14! Time, you see, renders many arguments obsolete. These are facts, realities on the ground as Mr Bush would say. No matter how many arguments one uses to dispute them, these facts remain saaxib. Wouldn’t you agree?

 

 

“Baashe, I do wish you would drop the clannish arguments from this discussion, saaxib. It really does not become youâ€. This is in answer to the first of your two points. You’re not naked, but the towel was almost slipping. Remember the argument you had about the word ‘circular’, well clannish arguments, as you’re perfectly aware, become circular after a while. His ‘defeated lot’ and your ‘ motivated by one clan’ though not of the same strength are from the same swamp, saaxib.

 

 

As for the second point, I agree that optimism is great and that people work to attain their dreams. However, with all the problems in Somalia proper, how much work is being done (or is possible to do) to keep the unity? How soon could it all be sorted? In a year as the current president of the TFG claimed? In two? Three? How long? When is the dream going to become a reality? And, when it does, how soon will the new government turn its attention to Somaliland? How long will the world turn Somaliland’s quest for recognition down for? See the difficulties of fulfilling this dream at all, saaxib? Be honest here now.

 

As things stand, which is the harder dream to achieve?

 

Your final question, believe it or not, is one of the main reasons why I finally made up my mind about Somaliland. It really has no other option but to succeed.

 

 

[Baashi]

@ ur last sentence...Really?

 

What is the main argument for the secession again? Who wants to secede and why? I'm not sure I heard your wisdom on these pertinent questions.

 

Yes, we discussed the topic of Las Ano even though we ended up by agreeing to disagree! And yes again, these are border disputes between two autonomous regions whose borders overlap! While the fact that these provinces not being part of Somaliland don’t negate the existence of Somaliland (the existence of Somaliland as former British protectorate has never been contested mind you!), it nullifies the claim that the same Somaliland (as was known back then) is the one (as a unified entity) that wants to secede.

 

Did I hear you say that you see no benefits in being part of the federal government! So secessionists have a list of demands that if satisfied they will come back into the fold again. Great! I knew you were open for persuasion. Halt the recognition drive and let’s talk about this thing. What sort of benefits are we talking about here? If these benefits are made available to secessionists, my understanding is that there will be no need for dismembering the country. Right?

 

Excellent Ngonge. You now agree that clannism is part and parcel of the Somali politics. Because all Somalis are using clan politics, is it okay for you to support Somaliland’s secession based on clannism? Pointing out that secession pushed by vocal activists (motivated by clannish motives) is not good enough reason to dismember an existing state is indeed an excellent argument. As for the point that it’s been 14 years since the day Somaliland declared its independence and that alone renders “many arguments†obsolete, well let me point out another fact: Somalia had no legitimate inclusive government as many years. That doesn’t mean it won’t have one. It is true that some parts of Somaliland had regional autonomy but that doesn’t mean these parts of Somaliland existed as an independent state. If time (the magical 14 years) renders many arguments obsolete, it sure renders the Somaliland’s claim as an independent state argument obsolete as well. For that proved to be a toll order for secessionists.

 

Again, here you are giving yourself a full dress and you are only allowing me to have baby towel (after I protested). Classic! Yes, I do remember the “circular†one but this is not as philosophical as that one. You are not giving me the easy exit from this “imagined†circular argument. In all honest you are not refuting the core charges. All you are doing is dismissing history, minimizing grievances, and you are tacitly acknowledging the clannism. What’s left is the 14 years of turmoil (country overall not pockets) and the right to secede!! You are not making the case for secession other than pointing out when this cause made its debut (right after collapse of the state) and it’s golden years during the civil war years. Common dude, you can do better than that!

.

[SOO MAAL]

From Las-Anod, Somalia

 

I thought we already exhausted the topic of Las Caanod in the thread we had a couple of months ago, saaxib. The jury is still out on that one. These, and I’m sure you’ll agree with me here, are mere border disputes. Whether they’re part of Somaliland doesn't negate the main argument for the existence of Somaliland.

Well SSC regions are an integral part of Somalia and they are not for discussion, I think Somaliland issue (meaning Hergeysa-Burco-Barbara Triangle) is for discussion and need a jury

 

are mere border disputes.

The people of Sool, Sanaag, and Cayn are proud people, and they are more than mere border dispute as you portrayed them , PLEASE STOP THE INSULTS. Whether Somaliland (meaning Hergeysa-Burco-Barbara Triangle) secede or not, Sool, Sanaag, and Cayn is not their business.

 

The fate of SSC regions, is matter for the people of Sool, Snaag, and Cayn to decide. NO ONE ELSE

 

 

I genuinely believe the union is no more. I see no benefit whatsoever in being part of the federal government.

The above statement is the stance of secessionists, BUT even if united Somalia is not viable anymore as Somali Landers think, also the people of Sool, Sanaag, and Cayn do not see no benefit whatsoever in being part of clan-state of Somaliland. The people of SSC rather being part of united Somalia (nation-state), stand alone (meaning establishing their own clan-state), or joining to any other entity, if they see they can benefit.

 

 

It is pointless to argue that Somaliland is using clan politics

It is not pointless, but is the reality and the facts on the ground that Somaliland is in every respect is based on clan politics, the entire Somaliland administration is one clan’s faction and campaigning for recognition as clan-state, So the whole Somaliland notion based on one clan’s resentment, one clans administration, one clan declared a self-declared republic, and idea is promoted by one clan. Where United Somalia is promoted a whole race (Somali), Somali republic was shared by all Somalis, when Somalia was established back in 1960 was supported by all Somali clans on the basis of nationalism, Somalia is a nation-state.

 

But still, I don’t mind the people of Hergeysa-Burco-Barbara Triangle to form their own state. However the problem is when the people of Hergeysa-Burco-Barbara Triangle claim all former British Somalia to come under the rule of their clan-state because of mythical colonial boundaries. The people of Hergeysa-Burco-Barbara Triangle cannot at the same time claim self-determination for their clan-state, and to colonize the people of Sool, Sanaag, and Cayn. THATS HYPOCCISY!!!

 

The people of Sool, Sanaag, and Cayn has the right of self-determination and the freewill, and Hergeysa-Burco-Barbara Triangle should end their aggression on Sool, Sanaag, and Cayn regions.

 

 

I agree that optimism is great and that people work to attain their dreams.

Even if united Somalia is dream, how about the clan-state of Somaliland? A daydream.

 

Well maybe the clan-state of Somaliland is answer to Somaliland’s administration and the people of Hargeysa-Burco-Barbara triangle in their quest of establishing a clan-state that they dominate.

 

 

Somaliland

It really has no other option but to succeed.

I don’t think so clan-state is a answer to Somali crisis, but Hargeysa-Barbara-Burco Triangle has right to secede.