Shia Sunnah Debate # 1 , On Completeness of Quraan

[Nur]

Nomads

 

Finally a credible debate partner was found, Mutakallim, formerly Philosopher King, wrote the following response to me on the original thread, and suggested that he will substantiate from Quraan our common source using his own pick of the Sunni Tafaasiir, sidelining the oldest Tafseer ever written, Al Tabari.

 

But before we even go to the Tafsseer, it may be more economical to examine if indeed the Shia beliieve the Quraan itself is COMPLETE, we sunnah believe Quraan is COMPLETE, let us debate this issue as an openner, and if we agree, we can proceed to the contents in the Quraan.

 

Here is what Mutakkallim wrote:

 

Nur:- If you really want to learn and discuss the shia ideology , then I am willing to do so. We shias, differ from the the sunnis in ways more than one. There are cardinal discrepancies between the shia and sunni in matters pertaining to "'aqaid", the islamic doctrines. All other differences between us and the sunnis insofar as the differences are of a juristic nature, is, inconsequential. Let us debate the "caqaaid" as it is the "form" of our religion; everything else is but a mere derivation thereof (shariica, akhlaaq, fiqh etc.).

 

If you are receptive to the discussion, I will demand of you "amreeyn", two things:

1) I will use proofs from your books to explicate the legitimacy of our beliefs. I will refer to the eminent sunni scholars (mufassiriin) and their exegis (zamakhsahri, siyuudi, etc.); I will not refer to the second-rate tafasiir written by your scholars (ibn kathiir, dabari, qutb, etc.). I will not communicate to you like a commoner, I will assume you are intimately familiar with all your concepts. If that is not the case, then I do not wish to "teach" anything. This is a challenge and thus will it remain.

2)The relgious proofs I will advance will be "rational" and of course "narrational". I shall start the discussion of the rationality of our beliefs.

 

May He shower His blessings on His prophet and his famliy, for they are the Ark of Salvation in a stormy sea of hypocrisy.

 

With Salaams

PK

 

 

My answer:

 

Brother Mutakallim

 

I have all along felt you an others on this forum, for your information, I am former sympathizer of the Shia so much so that I use to pray with a stone from Karbala, I admired the Shia on many issues, they do have good qualities, and as you said major aqeedah differences with the Sunnah, you can consider what is coming as a discussion of two shia students, my objective is for us to come to a common ground:

 

" THAT WE COME TOGETHER TO A COMMON WORD BETWEEN US, THAT WE , WORSHIP NONE BUT ALLAH, AND FURTHER, THAT SOME OF US DO NOT WORSHIP OTHERS "

 

If we succeed on that common goal, walls between us inshAllah will come down.

 

 

That is the Objective of this discussion, please let us show OBJECTIVITY toward that statement all the way through, you and all Shia have my utmots respect and I pray Allah SWT show us the right path we seek 17 times a day.

 

 

Debate # 1

 

 

Shia Believe Quraan Is NOT COMPLETE.

 

 

Your response Brother MUTAKALLIM

 

 

Nur

[Salafi_Online]

Innalhamdulillah----> Surely All praises Belongs to Alalh

 

Mutakalim is shia???!?!?! :eek:

Nur former Shia?!?!? :eek:

[Nur]

Salafi bro.

 

I was never a shia, and i never said so, you need to become a critical reader, I was just an ignorant Muslim sympathizer with Shia friends in College, prior to that, I knew nothing of the reality of the Shia until I lived with a shia student and read his books and prayed with Him. But, with the grace of Allah, It was a valuable experience, so valuable, I am here helping others stay on the Siratul mustaqeem, the Sunnah of Prophet SAWS.

 

By the way, if you think being a former Shia is bad, how about the Companions who were former kufaar? are you going to look down upon them too?

 

Umar Ibnul Khattab said, " He who does not know jaahiliyya does not know islam"

 

With all due respect, brother you need patience, being a trigger happy is not a good trait for someone who wants to become an advocate for Islam, a daacee for Islam. Tolerance and understanding can earn you respect of others so they can take your advice, but not aggression and ill thought.

 

The more I read your responses the more i wish that you refrain answering when you have limited knowledge of subject matter.

 

 

Nur

[Salafi_Online]

Innalhamdulilla... Surely All praises belongs to Allah

 

"By the way, if you think being a former Shia is bad, "

 

Brother, who said being a former shia is bad, i was surprised thats all re!

 

 

if because you dont agree with my post makes me unknowledgeable, then Allah praises belongs to Allah truly he is the best of the judges! allah knows best that i back up my statements with either ayats/hadith or the scholars statements! Walilahamd!

[Nur]

Brother Salafi

 

May Allah bless you, pleas pray for me, that Allah SWT saves me from my own evil, and my bad deeds, because guided is he who Allah guides, without Allah's guidance I will sure be lost soul, but because I love Allah, SWT, I am struggling in his cause, using my limited skills and knowledge to call others to his way.

 

 

Nur

[Mutakalim]

The Quran is complete in the full sense of the word. That the shia peoples hold that the Quran is incomplete is one of the many arrows of accusations the sunni laymen sling at the followers of the Ahlul Bayt.

 

It is agreed upon, it is unanimous, it is indubitable, the absolute immutablity and completeness of the Quran. "Inna naxnu nazzalnaa ad-dikra wa inna lahu laxaafiduun"; "Al-yawma akmaltu lakum diinukum wa radiitu lakum al-islaama diina"; "ma farradnaa fil kitaabi min shayin" ilaa aakhir al-ayaat.

 

Ah! Frankly, I was anticipating a structured discussion of the 3aqaid; however, as I read your "proofs" in the other thread , it has become painfully clear that you have not the requiste proficiency for argumentations, the dialectics if you will. In an effort to discredit the shia ideology you have mentioned, like all laymen, the "abdullah bin saba" story; then you quickly changed gears, as you haphazardly leaped from one topic to another (tuqiyaa, immamah,mutcah etc. etc.)Let us attempt to debate like scholars. First things come first, the caqaaid. It is futile, and often counterintuitive, to discuss or even argue about the legitimacy of "mutcah" (or any other topic) when the fundemental principles of relgion are not in complete symphony.

 

Be that as it may, I entreat you, Nur, to discuss in a bona fide manner the caqaaid. Still I have hope that you will be receptive to my call.

 

wa nastamiddu min allahi al-cown

 

With Salaams

PK

 

P.S. Viking, Q, OG_Girl, and et al , are free to opine their meditations in this thread. This is not a one-on-one discussion.

[Nur]

Mutakkallim

 

you write:

 

"The Quran is complete in the full sense of the word. That the shia peoples hold that the Quran is incomplete is one of the many arrows of accusations the sunni laymen sling at the followers of the Ahlul Bayt."

 

 

Answer:

 

For the benefit of the doubt, I will not assume that you are dishonest, for what yo've u said, I say, you are deceived brother. Please read below.

 

 

Most Mujtahids of the Shia are in agreement that the Quraan is CHANGED, Muxarraf. If You are a true Shia You know it, if not, Alhamdulillah.

 

Now, The Great Shia Muxaddith Al Nuuri Al Tubrusi has written a large volume book titled:

" Faslal Khitaab Fii Ithbaat Taxriif Kitaab Rabbil Arbaab"

 

Translation : " The Criterion in the Proof of Falsification of the Book of the Lord of Lords"

The Sheikh has collected more than 2000 rewaayah, narrations, making a case for the falsification of the Quraan, He collected the support of almost all of the reliable Shia scholars as a support for his claim,

 

Please read the introduction of the Book Al Burhaan, Section 4, page 49

 

" Al Sayid Abul Hassan Al Caamili said, (And it is clear to me (The falsification of Quraan) after I have verified sources and followed tracks, to the point that this (principle) is the necessary (pillar) of the Shia Mad-hab. and it was (the falsification) the driver for taking away the Khilaafa (from Alal beit) by force.

 

 

Please read Al Anwaar Al Nucmaaniyah Volume 2, Page 357

 

The Great Shia Scholar Nicmatullah Al Jazaa'iri said as a rebuttal for those like you who say it was not falsified:

" Believing the authenticity and its integrity of the reveation contradicts with the infromation (from our sources) knowing that our (imams)diligently verified the truth of our infromation"

 

Please Read Al Kaafi, Volume 1, Page 26

 

" No one has ever claimed that he compltely compiled the Quraan except a LIAR, and NO ONE has ever compiled it or memorized it like Ali Ibnu Abi Talib and the Imaams"

 

 

So why are the Shia studiying the current Quraan:

 

The answer:

 

The great Scholar, Al Khoo'ee, on his death bed like all other scholars told his students to stick to the current Quraan, until the appearance of the Quraan of Fatima.

 

 

Nur

[Mutakalim]

Nur

 

The book you have referred to does, indeed, suggest that the quran is "muxarraf", but that is a minority opinion in both Sunni and Shia Islam (there are some sunni sects who make the same allegation). However, it is simply absurd, unacceptable, and completely heretic to insinuate that the Holy Quran is "muxarraf". Without the Quran there is no Islam. Period.

 

The "musxaf of fatima" is not at all the real quran; it is not even the quran for that matter. Some shias( even amongst our ithna cashariyya, there are scholars who deny this) believe that when the Prophet (PBUH) died, Jibriil used to come to Fatima, and therein was recorded the substance of Jibriil's speech. The shias who believe this say that Jibriil used to entertain Fatima as the death of her father really left her in great emotinal pain. The truth or falsity of this belief is beyond the scope of the discussion herein. Shall we discuss the caqaaid or will you insist on saying that the shia, collectively, believe that the quran is mutable.

 

P.S. The whole debate as to whether the Quran is muxarraf or not was intially based on logic. How do we know that the Quran is not muxarraf? Because the Quran tells us that it is not muxarraf. Is this circular? Well there are shia and sunni "riwaayaat" that suggest that the quran is mutable. But sunni and shia scholars, with the exception of a few scholars, reject these riwaayaat completely. I vehemently disagree with anyone who even suggests that the Quran has been changed. Again, without the Quran we have, literally, NOTHING!

 

With Salaams

PK

[Nur]

Mutakkalim bro.

 

Jazaakallahu Khairan

 

You made two assumptions:

 

1. Some Shia and Some Sunnah believe this Taxriif, Please show some proof about a Sunni reference that the Quraan was falsified, I have yet to come across such a claim.

 

2. You said this represent a mninority view in Shia, again, please tell me if the above references are those read and followed by the minority of the Shia schoilars, specially if the Kaafi is a minority opinion within Shia circles.

 

Lastly, Like you said, the Quraan is its own proof, denying this fact is automatically Kufr, one either beleives the Quraan is protected or he does not, in which case he is not considered a Muslim, my question, is , do you consider anyone who believs the Quraan to be changes as a Muslim?

 

 

Nur

[Nur]

Mutakallim

 

 

Here are the other Devine books the Shia Scholars say were revealed specially for Imaam Ali Radiyallahu Canhu and the Imaams, SHIA SOURCES ONLY:

 

1. Al Jaamica

 

Reported by Abu Baseer (A scroll seventy Diraac(Yards) long like the armlength of the prophet, SAWS, ........in it is all Halaal and all haraam, and everything people need" Source, Al Kaafi volume 1, page 239, and Bihaarul Anwaar, Volume 26 page 22

 

 

2. The Naamuus Scipture

 

It was reported by Redha may peace be upon him, was asked concerning the story of the coming of the (missing)Imaam, He said " ..There will be a scroll with Him(imaam) in it there will be names of his Shia until the day of the judgement, and a scroll ofn the of the names of their (shia) enemies till the day of judgement" Source, Bihaarul Anwar, V25, P 117

 

 

3. Al Abiita Scipture

 

It was reported that Amirul Muminiin (Ali) said: " I have many scriptures pieces of the Messenger of Allah SAWS and His Al Beit, in it there is a scripture called Al Abiita, and nothing (scripture) came down on Arabs so severe.." Source Bihaarul Anwar V26 P 37

 

 

4. Dhu'aabatul Saif Scripture

 

Abi Baseer reported from Abu Abdallah aleyhi salaam, that there was in the Dhu'aabah (handle) of the sword belonging to the Messenger of Allah SAWS, a small scripture in it there was the key letters each opens thousand other letters (chain letters). Source Bihaarul Anwaar V 26 p 56

 

 

5. Ali Scripture , Source Biharul Anwaar, V27 P65

 

6. Al Jaffar, The White Jaffar, and The Red Jaffar

 

Abi Alaa reported He said " I heard Aba Abdallah say " I have the White Jaffar" I asked him, " What is in the White Jaffar?" He said:

 

" David's Scripture ( Zabur), Torah of Moses, Gospel of Jesus, and the scriptures of Abraham, May peace be upon them, and all Halaal and haraam, and I also have the Red Jaffar"

I said " what is in the Red Jaffar?" He said " The weapon! because it will open up for blood, the owner of the sword will open to kill" Source Usuul Al Kaafi Volume 1 Page 24

 

A great Shia Scholar from Najaf Al Khoo'ee was asked about the Red Jaffar who will unleash it and whose blood will be spilled with the sword, he said " the absent Imam will open the sword when he comes and will spill the blood of the Caammah ( Nawaasib) ( The Sunnis) He will kill them and spill their blood like the Deglah and the Euphrates rivers and he ( The missing imaam) will take revenge on the the two idols of Qureish ( Abu Bakar and Omar) and their daughters ( Aisha and Hafsa) and Nactal ( Othman) and banu Umayyah and banu Abbas and he will desecrate their graves.

 

 

7. The Fatima Scripture

 

Please read the following source. Bihatul Anwaar V26 p 41, 42, 48

 

8. It was reported that Abdillah aleyhi salam used to read the Torah and the Gospel in Siryaaniah language. Source Al Hujja from the Kaafi Volume 1 page 207

 

 

Translated from the Original arabic by a layman called:

 

 

Nur

 

2004 e-Nuri Aqeedah Vigilante

If you don't stand up for Allah ALONE, you'd fall for everything else.

[Mutakalim]

Nur

 

The following are the "riwaayaat" that suggest, even if only faintly, that the quran is somehow incomplete.

 

Sahih Muslim pp 139-140 (Arabic)

Sahih Muslim (English), Tradition #2283

Sahih Muslim (English), Tradition #2285

 

Also al-Zamakhshari recorded that "Aisha said that the Quranic verse enjoining stoning for adultery was written on a leaf, but the leaf

was accidentally eaten by a goat while the Prophet Muhammad was on his death-bed, and thus the verse was lost".

 

al-Muttaqi Ali Ibn Husam al-Din in his book ( Mukhtasar Kanz al-Ummal,

printed on the margin of Imam Ahmed's Musnad, v2, p2 ) ,chapter 33

 

Al-Bukhari , v8, pp 209-210

Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal (in the Musnad of Umar under the caption of

the Hadith al-Saqeefah, pp 47,55)

- Sirah of Ibn Hisham (Pub. by Issa al-Babi al-Halabi of Egypt 1955), v2, p658

Sahih al-Bukhari, , vol 9, p212

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 6.468

 

There are many more "riwaayaat" similiar to the above-mentioned ones that are found in Sunni books.

 

Again, if Kulayni or Bukhari or any other respected scholar suggests that the Quran is incomplete , their judgement is to be rejected in its entirety.

 

As to the Shia who say the Quran is muharaf I will say as Prophet Hud (AS) said

 

"Law anna lii bikum quwwatan ow aawii ilaa ruknin shadid"

 

Shall we discuss the caqaaid? Or still do you have reservations?

 

With Salaams

PK

 

 

P.S. I will go to the local markaz/maktaba this weekend and I will review, inshallah, all the references you have posted herein.

[Nur]

Brother Mutakallim

 

Thanks for your response, again, we agree that what you write is FAINT compared to the overwhelming evidence of the comnpleteness of the Quraan, specially the fact that Allaah SWT:

 

1. Challenged mankind and Jinn to produce like the Quraan

2. That Quraan was protected by the author, Allah SWT

3. That It was complete ( Alyawma akmaltu lakum Diinakum( Islam), wa atmamtu Calaykum Nicmatii ( Quraan) wa radeytu lakumul Islaama Diinaa)

 

speeaking of the Aqaaed, yes, dear brother, I am ready, I am studying the Kaafi, Bihaarul Anwaar , Kashful Asraar, and Taxrirul Wasiilah, by Khomeini, Miraat ul Anwaar and Mishkaatul Al Asraar ( Notice how many Shia books refer to hidden secrets?)

 

InshAllah I will post it very soon as I have collected so far 13 condensed pages tgo show beyound doubt the essence of the caqaaaed of the Shia and how far they have drifted from the Siraadul Mujstaqeem. So be patient bro. I assure you I wouldn't let you down.

 

Your Brother

 

 

Nur