Samatar's five points for solution

[Naxar Nugaaleed]

secularism and deomcracy can not be sapparated. democracy is based on the will of the people not the will of god as JB said. in a democracy, religion is a personal thing.

[Xargaga]

It seems that most of you are looking at things from a fixed perspective . My simple reasoning analysis in a way promted me to look at it this way. first What is the defination of Democracy? Secondly Who are the targeted people?

 

1. For one Democracy has simply been defined as government by the people and for the people, be it directly or inderectly. I mean in both its the people who decides through voting.

 

2. Secondly who are the targeted people? In this case the targeted population are somalis. As you all are aware Somalis are 100% Muslims therefore the logic tells me that majority of the people would always vote for what Islam stand for and not otherwise. At the end democracy if genuinely exercised would reflect the will of the people who are initially bent to submitt to the will of Allah (S.W.T). Ihope this is what Samatar was imlying by mentioning democracy and religion at the same time.

 

I might be wrong but that how i see.

[Emperor]

^Surely Samatar wouldn't mean democracy to be an Islamic revolution in Somalia?

[Naxar Nugaaleed]

simply put, the man is a flip-floper

[Xargaga]

Surely Samatar wouldn't mean democracy to be an Islamic revolution in Somalia?

 

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I cant deduce what he meant by his points. But he didnt specifically mentioned Constitutional democracy parallel to islam but just democracy and islam,for which to my opinion as in my previous post can be achieved. Islamic Revolution? I dont Understand what you mean by revolution cause the ppl are of one religion, culture and everything.

[Fabregas]

Originally posted by Naxar Nugaaleed:

secularism and deomcracy can not be sapparated. democracy is based on the will of the people not the will of god as JB said. in a democracy, religion is a personal thing.

Secularism and democracy cant be seperated, says who? I bet some white philosopher from the 18th century huh? Secondly religion is only a private thing if the people want it to be. If the vast majority of people in Somalia dont want alcoholic shops to be set up, does this they are undemocratic? The fact that you cant set up alcoholic shops in most Somalis cities shows that religion or Islam is not only personal but also in the public sphere. Are the majority here not excercising their democratic rights in not allowing these types of acitivites in a Muslim country? Or are they not being fully democratic because they are brining religion into the sphere of politics. Any type of democracy in Somalia will have to be loosely based on Islamic principles. The days of Siyad Bare millitant secularism are long gone. Even the Turks are now starting to feel the heat. However, I believe Somalis are not ready for the I.C.U type of rule, which is at the other side of the spectrum. Thus what Somalia needs today is the middle ground between the two.

[Naxar Nugaaleed]

somethings just go together: democracy, secularism, human rights, protection for the minority. state religion or the majority imposing its religous will will undermine most of those aspacts of of a democratic society. i dont get it, you either want a democracy or a theocracy, why mix the two?

[Khalaf]

Originally posted by Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar:

His five simple points he suggested Soomaaliya should led by:

• Aaminsan daryeelka ummadda Soomaaliyeed
• Aaminsan in uu maalkiista/maalkeeda iyo waqtigiis/waqtigeeda u hurayo xoreynta Soomaaliya iyo ku dhaqanka mabaadii’da dimuqraadiyadda

Aaminsan qiimaha diinta Islaamka (Islamic values) iyo daryeelka qiimaha shaqsiga (respect for human dignity)

Aaminsan in howshaan uusan ku raadsaneyn (dhaqaale ama darajo)

Aaminsan ku dhaqanka caddaalada iyo ka fogaanta qabiilka

[/QB]

Garthay, but the problem is however how to apply these ideals on the ground realistically: 5 years from now, 10 years from now, and so on. And where are the people that will apply these and common ideals/goals in somalia?

[Fabregas]

Originally posted by Naxar Nugaaleed:

somethings just go together: democracy, secularism, human rights, protection for the minority. state religion or the majority imposing its religous will will undermine most of those aspacts of of a democratic society. i dont get it, you either want a democracy or a theocracy, why mix the two?

Because Somalis are majority Muslim. Anybody who wants to rule Somalis today has to have Shariah friendly and Islamic friendly constitution. Your problem comes from the fact that you are taking for granted everything you heard from Western White Liberal Scholars. Democracy does not have to full secular. There is no sacred law or scientific theory which says this. To use my example earlier:

 

Would you allow Alcoholic shops to be set up in say Bosaso, Muqdisho or Hargeysa. If yes-no why?

[Jacaylbaro]

Would you allow Alcoholic shops to be set up in say Bosaso, Muqdisho or Hargeysa. If yes-no why?

 

 

That is what democracy says and our poeple say NO ......

[Fabregas]

Yes but according to Mr Naxar:

 

quote:majority imposing its religous will will undermine most of those aspacts of of a democratic society.

 

If the majority doesnt want alcoholic shops because of their "religion" is this undemocratic?Because in a real democracy according to Mr Naxar the majority should not impose its religous will. So if someone wants to set up an alcoholic shop wouldnøt they be allowed to do so, in his version of democracy.I await his answers.

[Yaabka-Yaabkiis]

we always ignore the reality: if you wanna fight for Qaranimo and Dadnimo, why wouldn't fight before, are ethopians and somalian warlords different or they are our uncles they both ruined Qaranimadeena and Dadnimadeen.

 

Yaabka-Yaabkiis

[Ibtisam]

We as Muslims value human dignity and civil liberties, accept that the popular will is the source of political legitimacy and believe in pluralism and in the alteration of power through free elections, these are the some of the key foundations that the idea of democracy. like Islam democracy is characterized by the struggle against the abuse of power. Democracy is just a set of positive principles, that anyone can adopt and adapt. It is an idea that Muslims and somalis can discover, grasp, and craft what we like out of it, and samatar five points are just his principles.

 

Clearly as jac was quick to point out there are distinct differences between liberal democracy and Islam mainly that (liberal democracies, individuals are sovereign but in Islam). Islamism does not automatically prevent active cooperation with western ideas and Quran does not give any fixed system or machinery of government to follow hence we are responsible for the salvation and well being of our families, and communities. And if this means ( Modernization) cultivate the sciences, or institutions then we should and it does not even require no one political ideology.

[Ibtisam]

We as Muslims value human dignity and civil liberties, accept that the popular will is the source of political legitimacy and believe in pluralism and in the alteration of power through free elections, these are the some of the key foundations that the idea of democracy. like Islam democracy is characterized by the struggle against the abuse of power. Democracy is just a set of positive principles, that anyone can adopt and adapt. It is an idea that Muslims and somalis can discover, grasp, and craft what we like out of it, and samatar five points are just his principles.

 

Clearly as jac was quick to point out there are distinct differences between liberal democracy and Islam mainly that (liberal democracies, individuals are sovereign but in Islam). Islamism does not automatically prevent active cooperation with western ideas and Quran does not give any fixed system or machinery of government to follow hence we are responsible for the salvation and well being of our families, and communities. And if this means ( Modernization) cultivate the sciences, or institutions then we should and it does not even require no one political ideology.

[Jacaylbaro]

I'm not against forming a government on any system that is not opposing our religion. Of course Islam did not give any fixed system for forming a government but still there are some basics that is differ from Islam.

 

The most bacis one in Democracy is that the choice is with the majority even if the majority is wrong in fron of Allah ..... while the Islam is giving the priority to the Islamic principles even if the majority is against it.

 

Again ,,, i really get pissed off when i hear some scholars and/or intellectuals saying Islamic democracy and stuff like that. Can't we just throw that name away, form our own government formed as we like and name it what we want instead of labeling it with Democracy ???

 

Why don't we have a governemtn with parliament and juditiary system ,,,, form all the governmental systems ,, implement the Shariah law ,,, then call it ISLAMIC SYSTEM, and or ANY OTHER NAME ,,,,,,,,, just to get rid of this democracy name ........